[kingdomcome]

How do POW actually intend to stop people reselling prints on the bay?

If you dont disclose the print number and hold the auction as private, so they cant try and contact any buyers to establish the prints number, how is it possible to stop an ebay sale....?

[stylus]

I don't think it is possible really. If people are hell-bent on selling them on, they'll do it.

[kingdomcome]

I think your right, the Morons I saw on ebay the other day stated that the print number would only be revealed to the winning bidder....for obvious reasons...

The sepias are going for 2 grand plus already.... no wonder people sell em on...

[Dellboyy]

As long as there's so much money involved in selling Banksy's i don't think the reselling market will ever stop, there's just too much money involved.

For example 3 grand would enable a student to pay their fees for a year, or buy a family a half decent car!

Quite honestly if i had the chance to make that kind of money back when i was at university i'd be buying and selling like mad! It would be the difference between starting your working life debt free, or starting owing 10-20k in debt!

[paradoxia]

This move only pushes up the (eBay) demand on a more limited supply...

[Curley]

kingdomcome said:

How do POW actually intend to stop people reselling prints on the bay?

If you dont disclose the print number and hold the auction as private, so they cant try and contact any buyers to establish the prints number, how is it possible to stop an ebay sale....?

Surely any Sensible person would not buy from ebay unless they can actually see a photo of the number which means the print is in hand. Its the only proof you have that the sale is reall.

I know i would not bid on any print that is not shown to be as described. I would therefore ask every seller for proof that the print is in their pocession.

This could affect prices as i cant see people bidding up to £3K on a print that they cant see the edition number.

[Dellboyy]

There're a lot of buyers with little knowledge around though! If people are paying over the odds for print still available at pow for example, i don't think not knowing the number of the print would stop them!

[kingdomcome]

I agree, you would want to know the print number and obviously lower print numbers are worth more than higher ones...

So I suppose the ebay business has been effected a fraction...as buyers cant make their sale slightly more attractive than someone elses...

You could argue though, that its not really that diff from buying from POW (assuming the ebay sale goes thru ok)....with POW you dont know what number you are getting either.....

It seems people are willing to pay for them...the ones an ebay now; say something along the lines of...'I dont have the the print in hand but a POW email confirmation'.....

[Curley]

dellboyy said:

There're a lot of buyers with little knowledge around though! If people are paying over the odds for print still available at pow for example, i don't think not knowing the number of the print would stop them!

well thats there look out i am afraid.

There cant be many on on this forum that would bid on a print when the number is withheld. With out the number you can not be sure the print even exists. I can see a few people getting stung here.

[Curley]

kingdomcome said:

I agree, you would want to know the print number and obviously lower print numbers are worth more than higher ones...

So I suppose the ebay business has been effected a fraction...as buyers cant make their sale slightly more attractive than someone elses...

You could argue though, that its not really that diff from buying from POW (assuming the ebay sale goes thru ok)....with POW you dont know what number you are getting either.....

It seems people are willing to pay for them...the ones an ebay now; say something along the lines of...'I dont have the the print in hand but a POW email confirmation'.....

I dont believe that lower numbers (except maybe No 1) are worth any more than later numbers.

They are all the same print at the end of the day.

[Strange Al]

I dont believe that lower numbers (except maybe No 1) are worth any more than later numbers.

They are all the same print at the end of the day.

Agreed.

We've discussed this before. Historically lower numbered limited edition prints used to be considered more valuable. This is because they were struck sequentially from a single plate. The plate would wear the more prints were struck. Therefore the earlier prints would often be of a better quality. With most modern printing techniques this isn't an issue. Plus, POW don't actually number their prints sequentially in any event.

[Curley]

jjoschi44 said:

I dont believe that lower numbers (except maybe No 1) are worth any more than later numbers.

They are all the same print at the end of the day.

[/quote]

Agreed.

We've discussed this before. Historically lower numbered limited edition prints used to be considered more valuable. This is because they were struck sequentially from a single plate. The plate would wear the more prints were struck. Therefore the earlier prints would often be of a better quality. With most modern printing techniques this isn't an issue. Plus, POW don't actually number their prints sequentially in any event.
[/quote]

How do you know they get numbered in the order they get printed ?
When they are dry and stacked they can end up in any order.

[kingdomcome]

Your right Im sure, Im just saying if someone was selling a Morons print no 99 for example, this would surely be slightly more attractive than selling 437?

[hungrig]

kingdomcome said:

How do POW actually intend to stop people reselling prints on the bay?

If you dont disclose the print number and hold the auction as private, so they cant try and contact any buyers to establish the prints number, how is it possible to stop an ebay sale....?

POW can't stop immediate on-sales completely, but it has already largely discouraged this with its one-print-per-household policy.

POW has also given greater stigma to the activities of the relevant sellers by specifically referring to the problem of touting on its website. This in turn encourages more policing of auctions by members of this Forum and others, and even the deliberate sabotage of auctions. Some people have actually turned into part-time detectives by obtaining information on the sellers (e.g. by bidding on an item and then clicking 'Find Contact Information') and forwarding it to Dora at POW. We are living in a new society of spies and informants. Quite exciting, really, or perhaps a little sad.

Although it is distasteful to purchase a sought-after print and immediately on-sell, I am personally grateful that so-called 'baggers' exist. I have bought from a prominent member of this Forum who must have sold at least three other copies of the same print on eBay. Without these on-sellers, my Banksy collection would be significantly smaller.

No doubt this has been discussed before, but I am not completely clear on the distinction between 'baggers' and other sellers of prints on eBay (or galleries dealing in the secondary market, for that matter). Does the lapse of a certain period of time make selling prints more acceptable? Once the 'decency period' has passed, does that mean sellers are no longer 'baggers' or (in the current market) does holding onto prints longer just mean that some sellers/'baggers' are more commercially astute than others?

Any views?

[Daniel Silk]

I think a good amount of jealousy comes into play when you have people trying to find out who the seller are, and then passing the information on to POW.
Very, Very Sad!

I find it funny coz I have noticed over the last few years that the people that make the most noise moaning about others that sell bits on ebay are normally doing it themselves under another name, and are just trying to discourage others from doing it coz it could effect their sales maybe?

[Curley]

kingdomcome said:

Your right Im sure, Im just saying if someone was selling a Morons print no 99 for example, this would surely be slightly more attractive than selling 437?

Maybe to some but to me its the same print. ;D

I aslo dont really see this reflected in E bay sales.

[kingdomcome]

Hi there, great post. You raise a number of interesting points.

Personally I dont have a problem with people buying and selling prints on ebay. Its the nature of the beast unforunatley. At least after the Morons debacle, it does give some people the opportunity to get hold prints they really want and would otherwise have no chance of getting.

Obviously this has led to a whole new breed of buyers who are only there to sell, which the popular argument goes, in turn restricts people who want them to stick on their walls.

This is true... but thats the way it is. If people are willing to pay top whack then the inflated selling will continue.

I dont really see the difference between someone selling thru Christies , Southebys or Ebay.

If I really needed the money I would seriously consider parting with my prints, it would be painful but if it was a must.

However, the same applies to my record collection...

Does that make someone a bad person or unworthy of shopping at POW....no I dont think so.

[dmandpenfold]

who's to say what an acceptable 'decency period' is, it depends on each individual point of view. However the selling of prints before you even have it in your paws would certainly smack of sheer profiteering and there are plenty of charlatans out there eager to take advantage of the artists generosity in releasing prints at less than market value and the collectors obsession in what should be considered quite a cynical practice.

I however see no problem selling a print later (no time limit specified deliberately here) if you wish to make room in your collection, or are using the increased value to beef up your bargaining power on other pieces of artwork. If you are lucky enough to buy a signed banksy on POW for example, then this puts you in the market for a considerably more expensive Micallef or (insert own artist here) later on and certainly will allow you to add to your collection without adding hugely to your debt.

[corblimeylimey]

There's nothing wrong with selling stuff on ebay, most here have done it.

It's quite clear that the wrong thing to do though is buy something you have no interest in (apart from the profit) and put on ebay even before you've received it.

Doesn't anyone see that if it goes on too much Banksy will change his price instructions to POW and the true Banksy art lovers are the one's that will lose out, the people who buy to sell will move on to something else, they were never interested in Banksy in the first place.

[Daniel Silk]

I really dont believe that POW are trying to stop these ebay sales it would be a crazy move for them and everyone else come to that

OK, the more pieces that are being sold for large amounts on ebay the higher POW and Laz can charge for more Limited prints and Canvases If they stop the re-sale market, nobody will know the current values of anything, and the market will slow and maybe fall is that what POW wants? is that what Banksy wants? No! he sure dunt, coz it appears he was behind the last price rise in the Morons prints ;D
These ebay prices are controlling the market for canvases more than POW or Laz realize

[monkeypuzzle]

I think POW's main objection is to people cashing in for the sake of it, if someone bought the print because they thought they wanted it, got it and decided it was a bit naff ( its happened to all of us at some point) and then decided to swap or sell then fair enough. Its the folk that buy and advertise straight away that annoys them. The whole ethos of POW providing affordable art works both ways, we get the benefit of being able to buy ( in the big scheme of things) art which for all intents and purposes cost twice as much. As they stated in the rules of engagment, they are not idiots and realise whats going on, is it better to allow 500 fans to get a half price print if it also allows 400 scalpers to get a print and sell it on at the going rate? I think it is, but if those figures can be pushed to 750 fans and 150 scalpers I am all for it.

[Strange Al]

CBL - Completely agree.

From the statements on POW, it looks like Banksy is desperately trying to stick to the principle of "Affordable Art". While one can rightly question whether £650 really can be considered affordable art, there is no doubt that the secondary market for signed Banksy prints is really only accessible by a privileged few.

[Daniel Silk]

Oh! just like to say Yeah, these people that sell before they have even got the print should be stopped. I really dont get that ok, they might make the odd £50-100 but most of the time if they kept hold of it they would have made three times that in a years time crazy

[goffy]

It's game theory.

[kingdomcome]

Great point Silky..... as I said the other day...its in no ones intrests to devalue the art market in anyway - except those who cant buy.

As for true Banksy fans being priced out of the market - I think that started a long time ago. This isnt just because of ebay and the buy to sell market, but other factors have played a part... Banksy LA show for example...also fashion and media interest have played a role....

Times have changed and sooner or later the average Joe wont be able to afford a Banksy unless the man himself / POW are generous enough to offer more specials priced prints like Flags.

At the end of the day' the bigger Banksy is the better for all involved with him, hes a brand these days.... a very popular one.

[monkeypuzzle]

jjoschi44 said:

CBL - Completely agree.

From the statements on POW, it looks like Banksy is desperately trying to stick to the principle of "Affordable Art". While one can rightly question whether £650 really can be considered affordable art, there is no doubt that the secondary market for signed Banksy prints is really only accessible by a privileged few.

I know its all relative, but 500 quid is alot more affordable than 3 grand+.

[Strange Al]

curley said:

jjoschi44 said:

I dont believe that lower numbers (except maybe No 1) are worth any more than later numbers.

They are all the same print at the end of the day.

Agreed.

We've discussed this before. Historically lower numbered limited edition prints used to be considered more valuable. This is because they were struck sequentially from a single plate. The plate would wear the more prints were struck. Therefore the earlier prints would often be of a better quality. With most modern printing techniques this isn't an issue. Plus, POW don't actually number their prints sequentially in any event.
[/quote]

How do you know they get numbered in the order they get printed ?
When they are dry and stacked they can end up in any order.


[/quote]
Absolutely agree.

I think it's a historical misconception that prints are numbered in the order of printing and therefore the earlier ones are better. As you say, they're dried before numbering and can end up in any order. In fact, it's often the case that the later prints are number first, given that they end up at the top of the stack.

I think it's now widely accepted that numbering is not meant to represent the order of printing.

[Daniel Silk]

;D Kingdomcome,

Yeah, I think some people are coming to terms with the fact that they cant afford any new Banksy pieces (thats me ) and we also have some that have loads of money so never need to sell any prints, but aint fast off the mark buying the prints in the first place, but then feel a bit about giving anyone else say twice the amount of money for a piece further down the line People jumping on the band wagon just that bit too late

Im pretty much out of getting any new Banksy's dint get any of the last 4 but I aint worried about anyone else getting them and not me ;D good luck to them! Im gonna buy stuff from other artists that I can afford ;D

[kingdomcome]

For me the nail in the coffin was the LA show.... When youve reportedly got multi millionaire celebs snapping up your work, what chance have we got?

Your right, time to move on and find the next Banksy...... more fun, Banksy isnt the end all and be all of modern art, thankfully there are alot of talented people out there.

[ThursdayFeeling]

The market for Banksy prints is continually increasing and will do until the market is flooded, with supply being limited, the market price will increase.

POW are keeping the price below that set by the market, thereby they are creating the popular secondary market. If I'm not mistaken even Banksy himself has benefited from this by holding back originals and selling them at auction. Should he not have sold them to POW or LAZ ? and enabled them to sell them at a price again below the market price, also do LAZ not hold onto 50 prints and release these to the market, are these sold at the price set by POWs original distribution, unlikely ?

If the prints were released as unlimited, similar to the soup can poster, there would be no secondary market and no high prices, maybe even no Banksy !!

Would we be still buying his prints ?

Any thoughts ?