muti
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December 2008
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Advice Needed please!!!, by muti on Jan 25, 2010 20:44:56 GMT 1, I am in a spot of bother and stand to lose quite a bit of money because of a transaction that has taken place between myself and an established forum member who I wont mention but am sure in time will reveal himself, I will give you all the facts as well..
I bought a Faile Butterfly Girl( pink & cream) from this member for quite a large amount of money, I had the option of receiving the print either framed or not but decided on having it sent over framed at quite an expense as well, I received the print in excellent condition and very fast, on the wall it went and after a month or so I decided that the framing just wasn't doing it for me so sent it off to Gary (Mr Frameman). I get a call from Gary a few days later saying that the print had been attached permanently to the material that made up the frame and can never be removed, this obviously de-values the print hugely and will never be able to get sold on if I do decide to in the future, I just couldn't believe this news.
The problem here is that the seller has asked his framer about what he used and he claims that a conservation tape of sorts was used and that he would never use a 'glue' to attach the print.
All I want is my money back, am I entitled to this?
Please help Cheers
I am in a spot of bother and stand to lose quite a bit of money because of a transaction that has taken place between myself and an established forum member who I wont mention but am sure in time will reveal himself, I will give you all the facts as well.. I bought a Faile Butterfly Girl( pink & cream) from this member for quite a large amount of money, I had the option of receiving the print either framed or not but decided on having it sent over framed at quite an expense as well, I received the print in excellent condition and very fast, on the wall it went and after a month or so I decided that the framing just wasn't doing it for me so sent it off to Gary (Mr Frameman). I get a call from Gary a few days later saying that the print had been attached permanently to the material that made up the frame and can never be removed, this obviously de-values the print hugely and will never be able to get sold on if I do decide to in the future, I just couldn't believe this news. The problem here is that the seller has asked his framer about what he used and he claims that a conservation tape of sorts was used and that he would never use a 'glue' to attach the print. All I want is my money back, am I entitled to this? Please help Cheers
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Advice Needed please!!!, by Guest on Jan 25, 2010 20:53:43 GMT 1, I would ask for a full refund and believe this is the only outcome for this type of transaction as you bought the print in good faith and on the understanding the print could be removed from the frame, which is not the case. If the print was sold as drymounted or glued, this would of seriously affected the value of the print. I hope this works out in your favour, and the seller does the right thing and gives you a refund.
I would ask for a full refund and believe this is the only outcome for this type of transaction as you bought the print in good faith and on the understanding the print could be removed from the frame, which is not the case. If the print was sold as drymounted or glued, this would of seriously affected the value of the print. I hope this works out in your favour, and the seller does the right thing and gives you a refund.
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linkd95
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July 2008
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Advice Needed please!!!, by linkd95 on Jan 25, 2010 20:55:02 GMT 1, Sorry to hear that man, i guess you should be entitled to your money back but first didnt tell you that the piece was permanently stuck to the frame or didnt he know?
Sorry to hear that man, i guess you should be entitled to your money back but first didnt tell you that the piece was permanently stuck to the frame or didnt he know?
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Advice Needed please!!!, by Daniel Silk on Jan 25, 2010 21:07:46 GMT 1, The only problem I can see you might have is the length of time between you getting the piece, and you finding out about it Hope it all goes well and you get your money back.
The only problem I can see you might have is the length of time between you getting the piece, and you finding out about it Hope it all goes well and you get your money back.
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volvic
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December 2008
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Advice Needed please!!!, by volvic on Jan 25, 2010 21:12:43 GMT 1, I would ask for a full refund, at the end of the day if the seller did not know about this it still lies with him and he was the one wo got the piece framed and should take the matter up with HIS framer, its not up to you to do that. Good luck greg.
I would ask for a full refund, at the end of the day if the seller did not know about this it still lies with him and he was the one wo got the piece framed and should take the matter up with HIS framer, its not up to you to do that. Good luck greg.
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volvic
Junior Member
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December 2008
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Advice Needed please!!!, by volvic on Jan 25, 2010 21:13:18 GMT 1, P.S amazing piece of art and we can all know there is one less from the edition floating around thats not MINT
P.S amazing piece of art and we can all know there is one less from the edition floating around thats not MINT
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muti
New Member
Posts โข 434
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December 2008
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Advice Needed please!!!, by muti on Jan 25, 2010 21:16:25 GMT 1, I dont think he knew, I guess you can never tell with this kind of thing, my only regret is not asking for the print to be sent over unframed, if that was the case then he would of discovered this. I have no doubt that the seller is an honest person and do believe that his framer had made a mistake or gave the framing to someone else to do and is just denying it for obvious reasons.
I dont think he knew, I guess you can never tell with this kind of thing, my only regret is not asking for the print to be sent over unframed, if that was the case then he would of discovered this. I have no doubt that the seller is an honest person and do believe that his framer had made a mistake or gave the framing to someone else to do and is just denying it for obvious reasons.
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Advice Needed please!!!, by manty on Jan 25, 2010 21:18:50 GMT 1, Sounds like the seller was in the dark if he said he could send the print to you unframed, as I am sure he wouldnt have offered it unframed had he known of any issues.
Has the seller got any recourse with his framer? thats the kind of thing they pay their insurance for
Sounds like the seller was in the dark if he said he could send the print to you unframed, as I am sure he wouldnt have offered it unframed had he known of any issues.
Has the seller got any recourse with his framer? thats the kind of thing they pay their insurance for
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muti
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December 2008
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Advice Needed please!!!, by muti on Jan 25, 2010 21:40:02 GMT 1, The seller did speak to his framer and he even sent over pics of the product the framer used, at the end of the day I suppose the framer can just carry on denying it because of all the hassle of insurence, loss of reputation and money.
The seller did speak to his framer and he even sent over pics of the product the framer used, at the end of the day I suppose the framer can just carry on denying it because of all the hassle of insurence, loss of reputation and money.
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Advice Needed please!!!, by bigwilly on Jan 25, 2010 21:46:21 GMT 1, never buy framed prints!
"drymounted" = you're fuc*ked
never buy framed prints!
"drymounted" = you're fuc*ked
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jaimesl
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October 2007
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Advice Needed please!!!, by jaimesl on Jan 25, 2010 21:49:49 GMT 1, Sorry to hear this... really unfortunate!
I'd be surprised if a high end restorer can't do something to help you though... they really can work wonders.
It'll be expensive but worth it for such a great print.
If you're in London give John Jones a call and see what they can do.
... may be a good half way house for you and the other forum member (who I'm assuming is innocent in all this).
Good Luck!
Sorry to hear this... really unfortunate!
I'd be surprised if a high end restorer can't do something to help you though... they really can work wonders.
It'll be expensive but worth it for such a great print.
If you're in London give John Jones a call and see what they can do.
... may be a good half way house for you and the other forum member (who I'm assuming is innocent in all this).
Good Luck!
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lifeonwalls
Junior Member
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September 2007
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Advice Needed please!!!, by lifeonwalls on Jan 25, 2010 21:58:17 GMT 1, Some double sided tape is considered to be "conservation" material because it is deemed to be fully reversible - it comes off with a little heat from a hair dryer leaving zero residue (obviously 'zero' is debatable) and I wouldn't have any of my prints in this way... It doesn't sound like this tape is even of that nature though..
Good luck with everything, hope it all works out.
Some double sided tape is considered to be "conservation" material because it is deemed to be fully reversible - it comes off with a little heat from a hair dryer leaving zero residue (obviously 'zero' is debatable) and I wouldn't have any of my prints in this way... It doesn't sound like this tape is even of that nature though..
Good luck with everything, hope it all works out.
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Deleted
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January 1970
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Advice Needed please!!!, by Deleted on Jan 25, 2010 21:59:46 GMT 1, I thought all these 'glues' and tapes were all water based so distilled water can get them removed without damage or staining to the piece?
I thought all these 'glues' and tapes were all water based so distilled water can get them removed without damage or staining to the piece?
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mustard
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March 2008
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Advice Needed please!!!, by mustard on Jan 25, 2010 22:28:56 GMT 1, This print was mine and I sold it to muti and gave him 3 months to pay it off, I've always been an honest forum member and made numerous positive transactions on here and would never knowingly sell a dry mounted print without full disclosure. When muti emailed me and told me that Gary said the print was glued to the backing linen I went straight to my framer and he assured there's no way it was glued and showed me the archival paper hinging tape that he uses and what most framers use and they are easily and safely removable, it is also hard for me not to believe my framer because he has framed many prints for me that I eventually sold and I went to him and he removed them safely and they looked like they were mounted just as he says this one was. I know Gary is respected on here so I am stuck between what 2 different framers are saying, I also asked muti for pics or a forwarded email from Gary which I never got and asked if he actually saw that it was glued and he never responded. He asked for my address so he could send it back which I gave to him right away and told him I would inspect it when I got it and take it up with my framer and if it was as he stated that my framer was at fault I would give him a refund and though I'm sure muti is a good guy I do not know him personally and this print has been out of my hands for over a month and a half and as we all know a lot of things can happen in a month and a half. In all I do want to be fair but I should at least be allowed to see what happened to the print before I promise him a refund. Too bad because it a lovely print, I wouldn't be opposed to what jaimes suggested either and having someone else look at it. I'm not sure why muti took this to the forum because I've responded to all his emails and told him I would work something out that was fair but like I said I should be allowed to see what happened to the print before I just give him a refund. Still not sure if all this should be aired out on the forum..
This print was mine and I sold it to muti and gave him 3 months to pay it off, I've always been an honest forum member and made numerous positive transactions on here and would never knowingly sell a dry mounted print without full disclosure. When muti emailed me and told me that Gary said the print was glued to the backing linen I went straight to my framer and he assured there's no way it was glued and showed me the archival paper hinging tape that he uses and what most framers use and they are easily and safely removable, it is also hard for me not to believe my framer because he has framed many prints for me that I eventually sold and I went to him and he removed them safely and they looked like they were mounted just as he says this one was. I know Gary is respected on here so I am stuck between what 2 different framers are saying, I also asked muti for pics or a forwarded email from Gary which I never got and asked if he actually saw that it was glued and he never responded. He asked for my address so he could send it back which I gave to him right away and told him I would inspect it when I got it and take it up with my framer and if it was as he stated that my framer was at fault I would give him a refund and though I'm sure muti is a good guy I do not know him personally and this print has been out of my hands for over a month and a half and as we all know a lot of things can happen in a month and a half. In all I do want to be fair but I should at least be allowed to see what happened to the print before I promise him a refund. Too bad because it a lovely print, I wouldn't be opposed to what jaimes suggested either and having someone else look at it. I'm not sure why muti took this to the forum because I've responded to all his emails and told him I would work something out that was fair but like I said I should be allowed to see what happened to the print before I just give him a refund. Still not sure if all this should be aired out on the forum..
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etched
Junior Member
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February 2008
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Advice Needed please!!!, by etched on Jan 25, 2010 22:42:09 GMT 1, get the name/type/code of conservation tape used by your framer mustard - that should answer the question weather reverseable or not
get the name/type/code of conservation tape used by your framer mustard - that should answer the question weather reverseable or not
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mustard
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March 2008
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Advice Needed please!!!, by mustard on Jan 25, 2010 22:50:42 GMT 1, When I went to my framer I took pictures of what he uses and sent them to muti
here they are:
When I went to my framer I took pictures of what he uses and sent them to muti here they are:
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spirit
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August 2007
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Advice Needed please!!!, by spirit on Jan 25, 2010 22:50:55 GMT 1, Seems reasonable mustard...
muti - Why not just send the print back to the original framer - if he can remove it without damaging/marking the print then no problem. If he can't then it's his responsibility and he/his insurance should cover the loss.
I'd definitely avoid the 3rd party route at this stage if I were you - needless additional expense.
Seems reasonable mustard...
muti - Why not just send the print back to the original framer - if he can remove it without damaging/marking the print then no problem. If he can't then it's his responsibility and he/his insurance should cover the loss.
I'd definitely avoid the 3rd party route at this stage if I were you - needless additional expense.
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muti
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December 2008
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Advice Needed please!!!, by muti on Jan 25, 2010 23:09:57 GMT 1, The reason why I haven't sent Mustard any pics yet is I have yet to receive the print back from Gary, I got the call from Gary and I immediately contacted Mustard with my concern, all I wanted was mustard to get in touch with Gary to explain what has happened. I got in touch with a few members on here and asked for advice which I received and it wasn't my intention to go onto the forum but with me facing the loss of a print which took a long time for me to pay off (thank you mustard) and loss of money I felt there was no other way to go.
The reason why I haven't sent Mustard any pics yet is I have yet to receive the print back from Gary, I got the call from Gary and I immediately contacted Mustard with my concern, all I wanted was mustard to get in touch with Gary to explain what has happened. I got in touch with a few members on here and asked for advice which I received and it wasn't my intention to go onto the forum but with me facing the loss of a print which took a long time for me to pay off (thank you mustard) and loss of money I felt there was no other way to go.
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mustard
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March 2008
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Advice Needed please!!!, by mustard on Jan 25, 2010 23:23:05 GMT 1, seems like you're jumping the gun though, it might take a little time to get this sorted out. You haven't even gotten the print back from Gary and it's not like I was dodging you I've returned all your emails promptly and told you I was willing to work out a fair resolution but it's got to be fair to me as well, like I said I should be allowed to see what's going on with the print before I just hand over a refund, seriously c'mon..
seems like you're jumping the gun though, it might take a little time to get this sorted out. You haven't even gotten the print back from Gary and it's not like I was dodging you I've returned all your emails promptly and told you I was willing to work out a fair resolution but it's got to be fair to me as well, like I said I should be allowed to see what's going on with the print before I just hand over a refund, seriously c'mon..
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etched
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,300
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February 2008
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Advice Needed please!!!, by etched on Jan 25, 2010 23:25:50 GMT 1, them tapes can be a bastard to remove - they are self adhesive and only when fully removed are they true 100% archival ? - as in - its not as simple as adding water and removing the tape . . . it depends on how well the tape removes itself etc - my opinion .... return to original framer and let him sort it, its his problem
them tapes can be a bastard to remove - they are self adhesive and only when fully removed are they true 100% archival ? - as in - its not as simple as adding water and removing the tape . . . it depends on how well the tape removes itself etc - my opinion .... return to original framer and let him sort it, its his problem
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bonesy
Junior Member
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July 2006
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Advice Needed please!!!, by bonesy on Jan 25, 2010 23:30:11 GMT 1, It still surprises me that so many people on here frame with even "archival tape". Why stick any adhesive to your print? Use mylar corners or strips.
It still surprises me that so many people on here frame with even "archival tape". Why stick any adhesive to your print? Use mylar corners or strips.
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etched
Junior Member
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February 2008
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Advice Needed please!!!, by etched on Jan 25, 2010 23:34:48 GMT 1, It still surprises me that so many people on here frame with even "archival tape". Why stick any adhesive to your print? Use mylar corners or strips.
no problem using the right archival method but these self adesive tapes are a cheap and less time consuming method that is sold to framers who dont know the difference - i had this out with a framer a few years ago
It still surprises me that so many people on here frame with even "archival tape". Why stick any adhesive to your print? Use mylar corners or strips. no problem using the right archival method but these self adesive tapes are a cheap and less time consuming method that is sold to framers who dont know the difference - i had this out with a framer a few years ago
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Harveyn
Forum Guardian
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July 2007
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Advice Needed please!!!, by Harveyn on Jan 25, 2010 23:37:09 GMT 1, It still surprises me that so many people on here frame with even "archival tape". Why stick any adhesive to your print? Use mylar corners or strips.
I presume it was float mounted. I would rather have a float mounted print with Jap Hinges using mulberry paper than a print behind a mount using mylar corners. The reason being irrespective of what glass you use there will always be slight fading due to UV light and its going to be more noticeable when behind a mount.
As for this issue I would be surprised if Gary cannot produce images to resolve this matter.
It still surprises me that so many people on here frame with even "archival tape". Why stick any adhesive to your print? Use mylar corners or strips. I presume it was float mounted. I would rather have a float mounted print with Jap Hinges using mulberry paper than a print behind a mount using mylar corners. The reason being irrespective of what glass you use there will always be slight fading due to UV light and its going to be more noticeable when behind a mount. As for this issue I would be surprised if Gary cannot produce images to resolve this matter.
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etched
Junior Member
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February 2008
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Advice Needed please!!!, by etched on Jan 25, 2010 23:43:08 GMT 1,
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muti
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December 2008
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Advice Needed please!!!, by muti on Jan 26, 2010 0:00:20 GMT 1, I don't think I jumped the gun, what do I know about framing? I trust Gary and once he told me I got hold of you immediately, what pictures did you want me to take ? Anyway I will be in touch to return the print at my cost and hopefully we can sort this out, thanks to everyone for their advice. Good night
I don't think I jumped the gun, what do I know about framing? I trust Gary and once he told me I got hold of you immediately, what pictures did you want me to take ? Anyway I will be in touch to return the print at my cost and hopefully we can sort this out, thanks to everyone for their advice. Good night
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Sohoria
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August 2009
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Advice Needed please!!!, by Sohoria on Jan 26, 2010 0:08:16 GMT 1, lot of learning i feel can come from this thread.. what happens if framer uses archival glue? had happen to me on my lifes to short print...! never asked for it but had art piece framed told used archival glue to stick down on some parts...
suggest take to pm and see what happens... multi suggest send pictures or ask frameman to mustard so can discuss with the framer... hope all works out..s
lot of learning i feel can come from this thread.. what happens if framer uses archival glue? had happen to me on my lifes to short print...! never asked for it but had art piece framed told used archival glue to stick down on some parts...
suggest take to pm and see what happens... multi suggest send pictures or ask frameman to mustard so can discuss with the framer... hope all works out..s
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etched
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,300
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February 2008
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Advice Needed please!!!, by etched on Jan 26, 2010 0:17:58 GMT 1, i dont think either forum member has done any wrong here and yes its educational to others - its about time people got themselves wise to getting art framed properly - I HAD TOO because some stupid ass tat framer (whom i the customer choose) thought he knew what was correct but was not - i blame myself as i did not have the knowledge to know the difference - im not saying this statement on this matter just on my own experience.....
i dont think either forum member has done any wrong here and yes its educational to others - its about time people got themselves wise to getting art framed properly - I HAD TOO because some stupid ass tat framer (whom i the customer choose) thought he knew what was correct but was not - i blame myself as i did not have the knowledge to know the difference - im not saying this statement on this matter just on my own experience.....
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curiousgeorge
Junior Member
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March 2007
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bonesy
Junior Member
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July 2006
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Advice Needed please!!!, by bonesy on Jan 26, 2010 11:43:49 GMT 1, It still surprises me that so many people on here frame with even "archival tape". Why stick any adhesive to your print? Use mylar corners or strips. I presume it was float mounted. I would rather have a float mounted print with Jap Hinges using mulberry paper than a print behind a mount using mylar corners. The reason being irrespective of what glass you use there will always be slight fading due to UV light and its going to be more noticeable when behind a mount. As for this issue I would be surprised if Gary cannot produce images to resolve this matter.
Agree with the float mounting and Jpanese Hinges but I personally very rarely float things. I like the look of the simple cream matte and black frame with most items. Im taking for granted that the UV non-glare museum glass will do its job though. The mylar corners show a tiny bit on the corners inside of the matte but literally no one besides me notices it, and it dosent bother me.
Neither party has done anything wrong here. I would have the original framer reverse the process and take it from there.
It still surprises me that so many people on here frame with even "archival tape". Why stick any adhesive to your print? Use mylar corners or strips. I presume it was float mounted. I would rather have a float mounted print with Jap Hinges using mulberry paper than a print behind a mount using mylar corners. The reason being irrespective of what glass you use there will always be slight fading due to UV light and its going to be more noticeable when behind a mount. As for this issue I would be surprised if Gary cannot produce images to resolve this matter. Agree with the float mounting and Jpanese Hinges but I personally very rarely float things. I like the look of the simple cream matte and black frame with most items. Im taking for granted that the UV non-glare museum glass will do its job though. The mylar corners show a tiny bit on the corners inside of the matte but literally no one besides me notices it, and it dosent bother me. Neither party has done anything wrong here. I would have the original framer reverse the process and take it from there.
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Harveyn
Forum Guardian
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July 2007
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Advice Needed please!!!, by Harveyn on Jan 26, 2010 11:59:30 GMT 1, I presume it was float mounted. I would rather have a float mounted print with Jap Hinges using mulberry paper than a print behind a mount using mylar corners. The reason being irrespective of what glass you use there will always be slight fading due to UV light and its going to be more noticeable when behind a mount. As for this issue I would be surprised if Gary cannot produce images to resolve this matter. Agree with the float mounting and Jpanese Hinges but I personally very rarely float things. I like the look of the simple cream matte and black frame with most items. Im taking for granted that the UV non-glare museum glass will do its job though. The mylar corners show a tiny bit on the corners inside of the matte but literally no one besides me notices it, and it dosent bother me. Neither party has done anything wrong here. I would have the original framer reverse the process and take it from there.
I am glad there are more people than just me who are anal about these things. UV glass protects against damage at varying levels. 97%/98% is a fairly common figure quoted for conservation glass and 99% for museum glass. So some fading behind a mount may occur after a long period of time. How long I do not know. With float mounting that will at least be fairly even. The only way to stop fading 100% is climatic controlled storage out of any contact with UV light.
On the other hand better to hang it and enjoy it than worry about these things.
I presume it was float mounted. I would rather have a float mounted print with Jap Hinges using mulberry paper than a print behind a mount using mylar corners. The reason being irrespective of what glass you use there will always be slight fading due to UV light and its going to be more noticeable when behind a mount. As for this issue I would be surprised if Gary cannot produce images to resolve this matter. Agree with the float mounting and Jpanese Hinges but I personally very rarely float things. I like the look of the simple cream matte and black frame with most items. Im taking for granted that the UV non-glare museum glass will do its job though. The mylar corners show a tiny bit on the corners inside of the matte but literally no one besides me notices it, and it dosent bother me. Neither party has done anything wrong here. I would have the original framer reverse the process and take it from there. I am glad there are more people than just me who are anal about these things. UV glass protects against damage at varying levels. 97%/98% is a fairly common figure quoted for conservation glass and 99% for museum glass. So some fading behind a mount may occur after a long period of time. How long I do not know. With float mounting that will at least be fairly even. The only way to stop fading 100% is climatic controlled storage out of any contact with UV light. On the other hand better to hang it and enjoy it than worry about these things.
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