[finsburyparkranger]

Ok I may be wrong but.... I've been following banksy and other pow prints on ebay for quite some time and its seems evident that the price of the prints are hugely inflated by shill bidding. Furthermore banksy prints often don't get sold at all. Its evident that the pow industry is abusing ebay to make the art apear to be much more expensive than it really is. No unsigned banksy print is worth a thousand pounds right now in my opinion. I wouldn't pay that money and nor would i dare say would you. Banksy himself has manipulated the market with others that share an interest to do so. Its his way of sticking two fingers up at the capatalist system whilst becoming richer at the same time. Thats why he created the £10 notes, just so he could play with the idea directly. It in turn actually increases the price of the percieved value of the art and does actually increase the real price as well. However be warned, if you try to sell your bansky on ebay you will find that you will have enourmous difficulty making the highest bidder cough up. Because they never intended to do so in the first place.

[lesroy]

I know, partly, where you are coming from. However there are still alt of people, like me and others on here that are very greatful to ebay for giving us the chance to buy / sell a print.

I was lucky enogh to sell two pieces this week, both were "won" by people with feedack under 8 and yet paid immediately by Paypal. To them I am greatful and viceversa cooz they both now own their first ever Banksy!

I do agree though that there are some strange bidders / sellers out there and word of caution is always wise!

[ricosg11]

anyone who knows how to market themselves knows that what you just described above is the greatest/cheapest marketing trick in the book. I will say though that there is some truth to the orices these guys fetch. Preceived value my friends, preceived value. My book due out shortly is called "demand creates demand". Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

[RBK]

There are some ways to avoid getting stung (and I agree that there is a lot of artificial value being created over the past year):
1. If selling, don't accept bids from people with (0) feedback - you can state this in your auction and have people contact you beforehand if they are legit and are new to Ebay.
2. If you can prove shill bidding - report it to Ebay.
3. Both this forum and the Ebay forum can provide a wealth of knowledge on the going rate for prints and if a print seems suspect or erratic bidding
4. Find a new artist to collect if prices are out of your league

I disagree with you on prints being overvalued at 1K. I've been tracking sales for a year and that simply is not true. There was a fairly significant correction in November and December and that already has taken a turn back upwards. I'm not saying it will continue to go up, or at the same pace as previously attained, but most print prices are an accurate snapshot of the market.

[gbh]

here's another way to not get stung.

pay only what you feel it's worth.

[Curley]

or dont buy off e bay.

I actually see some of the prices falling.

[corblimeylimey]

curley said:

or dont buy off e bay.

I actually see some of the prices falling.

Have you tried buying a Banksy from a local newspaper? ;D

[finsburyparkranger]

Hmmm. Personally i don't see the price dropping at all. Perception is everything and the great con trick will continue to roll. Lot's of Banky's art related work is pre-occupied by this very idea. He has communicated that he thinks people are idiots for being consumed by this idea. In the last LA print run Banksy can be seen to be totally preoccupied with this concept. Whilst at the same time, I suspect, he engineered this situation with the help of his friends at pow. Now, does this mean i should respect him for his marketing skills? I mean, even a revolution needs to be marketed well. Or does this mean he has become a part of the system that he has built his reputation on loathing? That thought makes me sad.

[Run Pig Run]

fuck me, i've heard it all now - Banksy and friends shill bidding on ebay! ahahhahahahaha.

[RBK]

Bombhugger - I don't think it is Banksy and friends shill bidding. I think it is people that either own the print personally, or people tied financially to the success of Banksy.

[corblimeylimey]

I think the last people to be involved in the practice that's being talked about here would be POW.

They sell his signed prints for around £500 when they could sell for about £1000 more, why on earth would they bother.

[RBK]

I'm don't think POW or Laz is doing any of this either, but you should never say never.

However, I have substantial proof that people that own the prints were doing this (before ebay decided to change it's practice of showing you the bidder's ids). Anyways, back to work for me.

[Run Pig Run]

rklimek said:

Bombhugger - I don't think it is Banksy and friends shill bidding. I think it is people that either own the print personally, or people tied financially to the success of Banksy.

yeah, ok, but I really don't agree "..... that the pow industry is abusing ebay to make the art apear to be much more expensive than it really is"
are you saying that the people at POW are sat at their computers shill bidding day and night?
it would be a full time job to bid up hundreds of banksy prints every week. I reckon it's just idiots who bid on stuff, get carried away and then realise they don't actually want to spend out, I had this problem when trying to sell a load of playstation 2 games, but i didn't think that the evil people at sony were shill bidding PS2 games to keep the price of games high.
But I do agree people are shill bidding their own items, but thats happening all over ebay.

some people shill bid to avoid ebay charges i.e. start the item at 1p and list it for 15 pence, go to a public computer set up a false account and bid on your own item - this will save you putting a reserve on your item which could save you a lot of money.
people also wait for someone to bid, then bid against them hoping they will take the bait, turn it into a bidding war and end up paying over the odds.

[rabbitlegs]

i dont think it is a con trick i think there is genuine demand for his work....i think the nature of his work and its appeal to both the elite and working classes is what forces the prices. yes their will always be some shill bidding but that happens with all ebay sales catagories. the demand is there...look at what happens when he releases a new print...POW cant keep up with the demand websites crash as thousands try to buy a limited ed print. demand is the financial driving force.

[RBK]

I detract my statement making any connection between POW and shill bidding. I do believe that they create tons of hype/pr/marketing that creates some artificial value.

The true shill bidding offenders are people like iron-tortoise and a host of others who bid up prints that they own with no intention of ever winning the auction. I've heard the stat that in 2006 iron-tortoise bid on over 90% of the Banksy prints while only winning a few auctions.

[finsburyparkranger]

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe Banksy never has made a naughty little bid to raise the price of his work or never even indulged in buying back some pieces knowing that in the long run it will help his career especially in the early days. However I think its evident from his work that he has been doing precisely that. I think some of his prints are directly 'cocking a snoot' (love that phrase) at his customers for buying his work at inflated prices. It would be entirely in keeping with his anarchic spirit to enjoy manipulating a capitalist system using capitalist trickery to promote anti-capitalist art. Thats why the £10 notes were made. K-foundation turned a million pounds into ash. Banksy turned a million pounds of paper money into a million pounds of real money (and some). Thats why he positioned them in a suitcase of money at the Santa's ghetto 2005. The stage was set way back then. The play was then acted out in ebay, by him and everyone else that bought into the franchise. The Diana £10 notes was a grand parody of the capitalist system. Thats why he holds loathing (artistically) for his fans that pay tons for his work. For him they have done nothing more than become good little capitalists, they missed the point. I like the whole idea. Actually I love it. But my concern is that he also becomes that what he once hated. A very fat rich cooperate cat. Also all his admirers are worryingly becoming more consumed into the commercialization of his (their) art than trying to transform and challenge the world around them. I would love it if Banksy issued the next set of prints on paper that self eroded one month after buying. That would refresh my sense that he cared more about the message than the price of his signature. That would really put a smile on my smiley face.

[tomhills]

bravo big man. as conspiracy theories go that would be mega. i think though if he had that much foresight he would never allow the likes of sean law, sorry - jude, to buy his work. though maybe it's a double bluff and reverse-psycology of the highest order.
to think that is fair advanced, to execute it is a step too far. i'm totally with you on the short life prints, you can hear it now; "get them while you can!!!!"
peace.

[numusic]

finsburyparkranger said:

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe Banksy never has made a naughty little bid to raise the price of his work or never even indulged in buying back some pieces knowing that in the long run it will help his career especially in the early days. However I think its evident from his work that he has been doing precisely that. I think some of his prints are directly 'c**king a snoot' (love that phrase) at his customers for buying his work at inflated prices. It would be entirely in keeping with his anarchic spirit to enjoy manipulating a capitalist system using capitalist trickery to promote anti-capitalist art. Thats why the £10 notes were made. K-foundation turned a million pounds into ash. Banksy turned a million pounds of paper money into a million pounds of real money (and some). Thats why he positioned them in a suitcase of money at the Santa's ghetto 2005. The stage was set way back then. The play was then acted out in ebay, by him and everyone else that bought into the franchise. The Diana £10 notes was a grand parody of the capitalist system. Thats why he holds loathing (artistically) for his fans that pay tons for his work. For him they have done nothing more than become good little capitalists, they missed the point. I like the whole idea. Actually I love it. But my concern is that he also becomes that what he once hated. A very fat rich cooperate cat. Also all his admirers are worryingly becoming more consumed into the commercialization of his (their) art than trying to transform and challenge the world around them. I would love it if Banksy issued the next set of prints on paper that self eroded one month after buying. That would refresh my sense that he cared more about the message than the price of his signature. That would really put a smile on my smiley face.

Nice little conspiracy theory you have there, interesting, but wrong IMO. Banksy just gets his head down and makes art, when he's not drawing, he's cutting, when not cutting, he's painting or making sculptures, cartoons, films, sketching, writing and having a beer or two and thinking about his next piece or show. He's an artist, not a politician.

Ambitious ? yes, for sure ! but he's definitly not sat down laughing at admirers of his work.

[mido]

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!! ;D

great first posts. how big is that chip on your shoulder?

I usually like devil's advocates, but they have to have a grain of believability about them i think.

you've obviously never been to the POW office. How dare u accuse them of something so planned and anal. I don't think they could see the computer long enough thorugh the fag ash to do so much shill bidding. ;D

by the by, I've done many ebay sales and buys and never had a serious problem (just a few weirdos on smaller sales - under £50 - who think they can either miraculously make up stories about the print no long being for sale, or buyers who don't realise that they can't just buy something then not pay for it).

oops, I guess the above paragraph makes me part of the conspiracy in your eyes

finsburyparkranger said:

Ok I may be wrong but.... I've been following banksy and other pow prints on ebay for quite some time and its seems evident that the price of the prints are hugely inflated by shill bidding. Furthermore banksy prints often don't get sold at all. Its evident that the pow industry is abusing ebay to make the art apear to be much more expensive than it really is. No unsigned banksy print is worth a thousand pounds right now in my opinion. I wouldn't pay that money and nor would i dare say would you. Banksy himself has manipulated the market with others that share an interest to do so. Its his way of sticking two fingers up at the capatalist system whilst becoming richer at the same time. Thats why he created the £10 notes, just so he could play with the idea directly. It in turn actually increases the price of the percieved value of the art and does actually increase the real price as well. However be warned, if you try to sell your bansky on ebay you will find that you will have enourmous difficulty making the highest bidder cough up. Because they never intended to do so in the first place.

[bluerose1973]

Hi Finsburyparkranger,

I was just wondering how many Banksy's you own and which ones.

Blue

[finsburyparkranger]

I've got one signed golf sale print. A little piece of early 21st century humour to pass on to the grand kids one day.

[ABC]

The only people Pushing prices up is US, US and the ebay forum have great debates on Banksy and other up and coming artists from all walks of life and not Just POW. we hype a print and debate how great it is, list the link, then Members on here combined with the members from the ebay forum go nuts along with millions of art collectors looking at ebay daily. I will prove a point. Last week some one started a thread on the Invader prints, agreed they are very good but Before that thread they were in the space shop (Invaders site) for quite a while. a few hours after talking about them they had sold out. Nothing wrong with this, this is how most of us find new prints and get the chance to broaden our horizons. POW and Laz benifit from this hence the Micallef prints at 4k, not brought on by the 21st century prices much.

[Curley]

Who said prices are not dropping ?

£1000 for Queen Victoria is a bargain.

[finsburyparkranger]

Everyone on this forum that is using this space to buy and sell banksy prints are part of the franchise. I think you've missed the point of what I said. You are one of the little rats. Maybe I will become one too. Buying and selling and hyping and scratching away. Eek eek.

[monochrome]

Prices in general are rising. New records this year for SIGNED prints include, Grin Reaper, Jack & Jill, Pulp Fiction, Love Rat, Colourway Soupcan.

The unsigned prints are going to be worth half their October value eventually - but on saying that, £1000 for Queen Vic isn't a massive drop - they usually average £1200 albeit with 1 or 2 reaching £1500 last year during LA frenzy.

As for Di Faced Tenners - they were tickets for an event. Hardly meant for ebay at the time.

Lastly..... why would you need 9 Flag Prints??Ask ebay buyer 'dazsw18' why he spent close to £5,000 on them

[pezlow]

Totally agree that the conspiracy theory is a load of old cobblers. But having said that I think there is something in the rest of what finsburyparkranger is trying to say. I expressed similar views (and got shouted down and abused for them) on the ebay group.

[monochrome]

so there is artifical upping of Banksy prints? who by then?

Banksy is so media friendly now, there are 1000s of new collectors out there. and they are seeing prices rise and rise.

you'd be a fool not to get a part of it.

[Hoops]

Monochrome
The Di Faced Tenners where given out on preview night at Santas Ghetto 2004 and where then for sale during the show for £10 .
Some where then sent over the fence at Glastonbury using a leaf blower but most of those got fucked

[wezzley]

& 4k for a napalm a few days ago...!

[corblimeylimey]

You can't make these prices up, or hype up the market, people will pay what they want or can, it's just the usual supply/demand and speculative investment.

The markets all over the place, take eelus for example (as there have been plenty of examples on ebay recently) in the space of 1 day a peach Chewbarber sold for BIN £119 and £80.70 also one didn't sell for BIN £99, so is the market up down or level? well looking at this case all three!