Lithograph prints...

[lesroy]

He folks...

Can someone help me, what are Lithograph prints and how do they compare in quality to the screen prints that POW sell?


Do they have very different characteristics?

Cheers in advance

[Ågent ßacardi]

Do you by any chance have the unlimited Soup Can poster from POW? That's a litho. Also good quality, but just not screen prints Lithos have very waxy/poster-ish finish. I'm pretty sure those are not technical terms... perhaps someone else can explain it much better than I can

[inthefogofdesign]

its a mighty big subject to tackle but lithographic printing is source of the majority of all the printing you get today from crap pizza menus, packaging, magazines to fine art books.

the process works around breaking an image into dots and then blending them togehter through 4 colours (CMYK, cyan, magenta, yellow and black - K is used becuase B (blue) is taken in RGB). it produces excellent results that are very realistic to the original source.

screen printing allows the artist to select solid colour fills (hence some prints being more expensive than others simply down to the amount of ink and seperate screens that got used) and produces something inherently close to the art of stenciling.

hope this helps, had a few beers and got over excited so decided to lob a post in (been on a friday session down to the stress of hitting refresh 24/7 on POW and getting very little done)

[KaL976]

Litho & offset litho are totally different. The £9.99 soup can poster is an offset litho.

full breakdown below c/o the ebay forum...

ok...
Etching: The surface of the metal plate is coated with an acid-resistant varnish. The artist then creates an image by using a fine point (like a tattoo needle) to expose parts of the plate under the varnish. When the plate is dipped in acid, these exposed areas are dissolved. In printing, ink gathers in the recessed areas and produces an image in reverse when pressed against dampened paper. Example Lucian Freud Eli etching (google it) NEEDS ARTISTS INVOLVEMENT

Lithograph: Artist draws onto a lithographic stone (bavarian kind of sandy stone) with a waxy pencil (not a pencil but similar). The stone is then dampened. Ink is applied to the stone but repelled by the water. It only stays on the waxy outline. The paper is pressed onto this forming the image. (see Micallef eyestorm stylie)
Can be done on a kind of transfer paper now as well. NEEDS ARTISTS INVOLVEMENT

Offset Lithograph: confusing - not to be confusing with lithograph as above. Offset is a complex form of digital printing. A transparency is made of a painting and then a high quality reproduction is made on paper. Complex digital process but with NEEDS NO ARTISTS INVOLVEMENT

Screenprint - like making stencils. Ink is pushed through stencils onto paper, differetn stencil for each colour. Used to be a hands on approach. When modern screenprints are made they usually work from a digital transparency of an original painting. (see banksy)

Giglee - the least interesting of these mediums - like a big inkjet - very mechanical (pixels show under a magnifying glass)(dirty deluxe)

There are others woodcuts, Monoprints, Aquatint etc but unless someone needs then I can't be arsed tonight.

Important thing to remember as a rule. Original prints are prints which are not copies of an original painting. Original prints only exist in print forma nd they have the most artist involvement. The only discrency to this rule is screenprints and they confuse everything. Screenprints are considered original prints even when made from a trancparency of an original painting (like Bankys) and dont we take advantage!!

edit...

this is a cut&paste - all spelling & grammatical errors to be taken into consideration

essentially - everything printed on the cheap is offset litho. that & screenprints require no Artist involvement, hence why Signed screenprints go for so much more - the Artist has actually touched the piece albeit with a pen/pencil, etc - unless the Artist actually pulled the screens themselves.

By way of example, Artists supply hi-res digital files to the printers who then make screens from those files & hand pull the prints...
The Artist [if they aren't there pulling or overseeing generally] comes in to sign the ones that need signing.

[Ågent ßacardi]

Very educational! Thanks guys!

kal: you meant giclée, right? So they're just mass-produced picture-on-canvas print jobs? Wow... with such a fancy name, it's utterly unimpressive!

[inthefogofdesign]

giclée rules, its the one process that lets me get me work onto a canvas and framed.

[Ågent ßacardi]

inthefogofdesign said:

giclée rules, its the one process that lets me get me work onto a canvas and framed.

Out of curiosity, how much does that cost approximately?

[Daniel Silk]

Thanks Kal967 & InTheFogOfDesign ;D

I didnt have a clue what they all were

[numusic]

inthefogofdesign said:

giclée rules, its the one process that lets me get me work onto a canvas and framed.

yep, it's just fine art snobbery that says otherwise, get with the program Mr & Mrs fine art.. it's the digital age.

[inthefogofdesign]

i've had a few done for between £25-35 (not with postage), it really depends on the quality of stock you end up printing on, have friends in who have luckily helped me out!

hopefully get some bits and bobs up soon if anyone whats to see my wears.

[lesroy]

The reason I ask is that I've just spent £550 on an Antony Micallef print that says on the site it's a Lithographic Print ltd edition of 95...

I wondered if the quality will be VERY good or if it'll be like a wanky poster?

Cheers very much for the detailed answer Kal... I assume I'll be very much ok with regards the quality when it arrives then? (Being a micallef and all)

[pastiepie]

In French gicler means to spray or to squirt so giclée is just a bastardisation of this word based on the fact that inkjet printers spray/squirt ink. Inkjet printing wouldn't sound nearly as sophisticated.

[KaL976]

Lesroy - assuming you've only seen it, 'on screen' it's going to hurt your mind in real life

The only Micallef's I'd seen prior to the Expo @ LAZ's were the pics on POW & frankly I was all,
mmm yeah charcoal... [I'm not big on regular art, I'm more mmm train damage] then, after a full day wandering about taking in the DFace & Blek shows we got to Laz's & I saw 'Minotaur Weapon' for the first, [& probably the last] time...
Gobsmacking. really. blown the fu*k away. stood in front of it just drinking it in for 15 mins or so, [missed the adam neate show cuz of it] nevermind the time it took to look at the rest of his stuff that was there

Thank the Lord it was sold already.

www.antonymicallef.com/58a.htm

those pics in no way do the canvas justice.

[KaL976]

pastiepie said:

In French gicler means to spray or to squirt so giclée is just a bastardisation of this word based on the fact that inkjet printers spray/squirt ink. Inkjet printing wouldn't sound nearly as sophisticated.

so you're saying it's French for Bukakke?

[pastiepie]

well that's one way of looking at it.

[lesroy]

Excellent news Kal!

yeah I did buy it from the pic on the website

I can't wait for it to arrive now! Ive seen some of his other ones and own his POW ones but was just a little perturbed by the Litho comments on the Eyestorm site.

Im starting to love his stuff more & more at the mo.

Love that minotaur piece... lovely aint it!

[longhu6]

Which one did you order Lesroy?

I have two of the black & white eyestorm lithos, and the quality is truly stunning. Another b&w and a coloured one on the way and just can't fucking wait, but a little anxious as to whether the coloured will compare well.

[lesroy]

Hi mate, I've gone for the Happy fucked up nuclear girl... looks ace! A friend had one for a year or so and it grew on me so I just had to buy it in the end.

I really want the B&W Tokyo Girl too... I think that will be my next one.

Problem is I also want the Walk in Harajuku too.... too much money!!

[danster1]

Hi guys, where else can i look at buying Micallef prints other than Britart and Eyestorm plse ?

[lesroy]

Pictures On Walls also have a Micallef section. They are all gone at the moment but I hear that they will be having a new print sometime before New Year!

Wahoo!

[danster1]

Cheers Lesroy....i got the 2 angel bombers from POW a little while back....yeah just wondered what was happening regarding a print they were gonna release from the Lazinc show...."girl in pink " i believe...that will be great !!

[atomcore]

I spoke to Lazarides gallery about the Micallef "Girl in Red"(?) print. They said they were waiting for everything to die down a bit after the show. Apparently the print is an edition of only 32 prints. I should imagine they will be quite pricey.
Anyone else have any news about the new POW Micallef print? I spoke to Eyestorm, they are down to single figures on the "Shibuya Crossing" print but have held back the 1-10 editions on most of their Micallef prints. These will then be released to people on their mailing list in the new year at 3-4 times the current price. Eyestorm seem have a very open information policy from what I can gather. Shame not everyone is as open with their info!

[rockhopper]

Hi Guys
Just like to point out a few things
Offset lithography is not a poor method of reproduction, as implied in some of the posts above, and nor is it a digital process, (well not completely) and the artist can have just as much input as a screen print
As stated above offset litho print is normally produced with a 4 colour CYMK seperation, however the number of seperations can be increased (hexachrome uses 6 colours, adding orange and green to the CYMK) with a resulting increase in quality
Many fine art printers use litho to produce very high quality prints
The artist may also have as much imput as he likes in the reproduction process.
In this modern age computers are normally used to produce the colour seperations and printing plates, but there is nothing to stop the artist using the traditional method of photographing the original through colour filters to produce a negative, and then using this negative to produce a litho plate.
Even when it comes to producing the actual print, the artist can either run the printing press himself or guide the machine minder as to how much ink is required on the printed sheet.
The offset part of litho refers to the fact that the paper dose not directy touch the inked image but is transfered via an offset rubber blanket to the paper

Hope that clears a few things up

[corblimeylimey]

rockhopper said:

Hi Guys
Just like to point out a few things
Offset lithography is not a poor method of reproduction, as implied in some of the posts above, and nor is it a digital process, (well not completely) and the artist can have just as much input as a screen print
As stated above offset litho print is normally produced with a 4 colour CYMK seperation, however the number of seperations can be increased (hexachrome uses 6 colours, adding orange and green to the CYMK) with a resulting increase in quality
Many fine art printers use litho to produce very high quality prints
The artist may also have as much imput as he likes in the reproduction process.
In this modern age computers are normally used to produce the colour seperations and printing plates, but there is nothing to stop the artist using the traditional method of photographing the original through colour filters to produce a negative, and then using this negative to produce a litho plate.
Even when it comes to producing the actual print, the artist can either run the printing press himself or guide the machine minder as to how much ink is required on the printed sheet.
The offset part of litho refers to the fact that the paper dose not directy touch the inked image but is transfered via an offset rubber blanket to the paper

Hope that clears a few things up

I've been working in the printing business for over 20 years (mainly in the pre press reprographic side) and although an artist could use the traditional method of photographing the original through colour filters it really wouldn't be very good,(think of the colour cookery books etc of the 1950's) and the kit needed (a gallery camera) is almost extinct. I've never heard of an artist operating a print press, although he could guide the printer this will only make the image overall more/less cyan,magenta, or yellow (giving the impression it's more/less green, blue, red).
Although lithographic prints can be good quality for reproduction of say, watercolours and photographs, they really fall down in other areas of art as the ink can't be applied as thickly as screen printing. Also hand pulled screen prints are more 'crafted' as it needs someone to physically push a pile of ink by hand across the screen with a squeegee as opposed to the printing press which once set up knocks out thousands automatically. You can also print onto much better quality paper (hand made if required, deckled edge etc).
I'd never buy a litho print, to me they seem worthless, only as valuable as anything else that could be printed onto the same piece of paper, afterall it costs no more to print art than it does a sheet of postcards, so in my opinion an A2 peice of art on card should be the same price as 16 postcards.
Also you could never do very low print runs (anything below 100) economically, litho comes into it's own for mass printing, really needs to be over 500, infact you can get a run of 1000 for hardly any extra cost to printing 500.

[rockhopper]

Why do you feel that using traditional methods wouldnt produce a very good result?
20 years ago all repro houses had gallery cameras and produced exceptional quality work, and while i agree thay are almost extinct, they are still out there.
I also agree that i have never of an artist operating a printing press (unless you class the minder as an artist) but if an artist wanted to learn the process he could.
And how many artists actually pull their own screen prints?
A large format proofing press would allow you print on any quality of paper, and would require the artist to register the image by hand, and run up the ink by hand, quite a skill i think you would agree. Proofing presses are also ideal for very short runs, sometimes even producing single copies.

[corblimeylimey]

Lots have changed in the print trade over the last 20 years, the first place I worked in had a proof press, I don't know of any now but I'm sure they exist somewhere, it was cost and time issues that killed it off, making printing plates and getting it on to the proof press where they'd usally print 20-50, more than people really needed. Most proofing is now digital or at best some sort of film proofing like Matchprint or Cromalin, but these days it's digital all the way to plate, and even digitally printed. By the looks of it Banksy's hardback book 2005 looks like it's digitally printed.
Although I'm in the business, if the art wasn't watercolours (or even oils/acrylic) or photographic, I'd go down the route of screen printing or large format ink jet printing (which artists like to call Giclee).