dbb1188
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Posts โข 5
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February 2007
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Banksy selling, by dbb1188 on Feb 13, 2007 23:46:21 GMT 1, maybe I'm just an uninformed fan of Banksy but it seems very contradictory that banksys works are now selling for thousands of dollars when he has always been anti- corporation and a strong advocate for the awareness of poverty around the world among other things. personally if i had the money to buy one i would i just was curious if anyone might have any idea why Banksy may be doing this (aside from financially supporting himself).
maybe I'm just an uninformed fan of Banksy but it seems very contradictory that banksys works are now selling for thousands of dollars when he has always been anti- corporation and a strong advocate for the awareness of poverty around the world among other things. personally if i had the money to buy one i would i just was curious if anyone might have any idea why Banksy may be doing this (aside from financially supporting himself).
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ร
gentรacardi
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,037
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September 2006
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Banksy selling, by ร
gentรacardi on Feb 14, 2007 1:23:38 GMT 1, maybe I'm just an uninformed fan of Banksy but it seems very contradictory that banksys works are now selling for thousands of dollars when he has always been anti- corporation and a strong advocate for the awareness of poverty around the world among other things. personally if i had the money to buy one i would i just was curious if anyone might have any idea why Banksy may be doing this (aside from financially supporting himself).
Well for one, profits from resales don't go to him, they go to the people who bought them cheaply and re-sell them... so Banksy doesn't really profit from that (well at least regarding the prints). Although, prices of his more recent prints have gone up (used to be ยฃ40-70, now they're ยฃ200-300), but I think that's just because they're trying to control the madness that his popularity has caused. Furthermore, nobody really knows what he's doing with the money... he may very well be donating them to charities and causes, in which case he's not really being capitalistic.
All I'm saying is, just because he hasn't released a public statement of how he's handling his money doesn't necessarily make him a sell-out or a capitalist scum. We really don't have enough facts to speculate. At least, IMO:)
maybe I'm just an uninformed fan of Banksy but it seems very contradictory that banksys works are now selling for thousands of dollars when he has always been anti- corporation and a strong advocate for the awareness of poverty around the world among other things. personally if i had the money to buy one i would i just was curious if anyone might have any idea why Banksy may be doing this (aside from financially supporting himself). Well for one, profits from resales don't go to him, they go to the people who bought them cheaply and re-sell them... so Banksy doesn't really profit from that (well at least regarding the prints). Although, prices of his more recent prints have gone up (used to be ยฃ40-70, now they're ยฃ200-300), but I think that's just because they're trying to control the madness that his popularity has caused. Furthermore, nobody really knows what he's doing with the money... he may very well be donating them to charities and causes, in which case he's not really being capitalistic. All I'm saying is, just because he hasn't released a public statement of how he's handling his money doesn't necessarily make him a sell-out or a capitalist scum. We really don't have enough facts to speculate. At least, IMO:) |
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Banksy selling, by beejoir1 on Feb 14, 2007 6:38:48 GMT 1, ........ you would be an idiot to turn down 5 million quid?
........ you would be an idiot to turn down 5 million quid?
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RBK
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,924
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September 2006
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Banksy selling, by RBK on Feb 14, 2007 7:12:02 GMT 1, maybe I'm just an uninformed fan of Banksy but it seems very contradictory that banksys works are now selling for thousands of dollars when he has always been anti- corporation and a strong advocate for the awareness of poverty around the world among other things. personally if i had the money to buy one i would i just was curious if anyone might have any idea why Banksy may be doing this (aside from financially supporting himself).
You act as if he had control over how big he got / how much his work resonated with the masses. We have no idea if Banksy is donating tons of his money or blowing it all on coke and expensive sports car. No offense, but I think your post is pointless - the message behind the image doesn't change whether it sold for 50 GBP on POW years ago or thousands on Ebay or in a gallery
maybe I'm just an uninformed fan of Banksy but it seems very contradictory that banksys works are now selling for thousands of dollars when he has always been anti- corporation and a strong advocate for the awareness of poverty around the world among other things. personally if i had the money to buy one i would i just was curious if anyone might have any idea why Banksy may be doing this (aside from financially supporting himself). You act as if he had control over how big he got / how much his work resonated with the masses. We have no idea if Banksy is donating tons of his money or blowing it all on coke and expensive sports car. No offense, but I think your post is pointless - the message behind the image doesn't change whether it sold for 50 GBP on POW years ago or thousands on Ebay or in a gallery |
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pezlow
Junior Member
Posts โข 5,388
Likes โข 254
January 2007
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Banksy selling, by pezlow on Feb 14, 2007 10:20:21 GMT 1, Every time someone comes on this forum and makes this point he gets shouted down. But there is definitely something in what dbb (and others) have said. Not that any of the"blame" can be laid at the door of Mr B. who after all has no control over how much his work fetches but there is a heavy irony in what is going on. I think Banksy recognises this - when the sotherbys auction was on last week he had a picture of morons up on his homepage.
Every time someone comes on this forum and makes this point he gets shouted down. But there is definitely something in what dbb (and others) have said. Not that any of the"blame" can be laid at the door of Mr B. who after all has no control over how much his work fetches but there is a heavy irony in what is going on. I think Banksy recognises this - when the sotherbys auction was on last week he had a picture of morons up on his homepage.
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Banksy selling, by monochrome on Feb 14, 2007 10:48:26 GMT 1, since when is Banksy 'anti' anything? he pokes fun, he has a laugh, but even 5 years ago when we was selling 750 edition prints at ยฃ34 he was doing quite well as an artist.
get over this 'Banksy is going to smash the system' rubbish. he paints pretty pictures and they have never brought down a government or system.
since when is Banksy 'anti' anything? he pokes fun, he has a laugh, but even 5 years ago when we was selling 750 edition prints at ยฃ34 he was doing quite well as an artist.
get over this 'Banksy is going to smash the system' rubbish. he paints pretty pictures and they have never brought down a government or system.
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ogrgel
New Member
Posts โข 502
Likes โข 20
December 2006
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Banksy selling, by ogrgel on Feb 14, 2007 10:56:44 GMT 1, maybe I'm just an uninformed fan of Banksy but it seems very contradictory that banksys works are now selling for thousands of dollars when he has always been anti- corporation and a strong advocate for the awareness of poverty around the world among other things. personally if i had the money to buy one i would i just was curious if anyone might have any idea why Banksy may be doing this (aside from financially supporting himself). You act as if he had control over how big he got / how much his work resonated with the masses. We have no idea if Banksy is donating tons of his money or blowing it all on coke and expensive sports car. No offense, but I think your post is pointless - the message behind the image doesn't change whether it sold for 50 GBP on POW years ago or thousands on Ebay or in a gallery
maybe not that many people see the message behind the image anymore .. all they see is banksy signature and POW numbering .. and the cash from ebay .. but that shouldn't be the reason to stop producing art for him ..
.. well .. thats just another theory
maybe I'm just an uninformed fan of Banksy but it seems very contradictory that banksys works are now selling for thousands of dollars when he has always been anti- corporation and a strong advocate for the awareness of poverty around the world among other things. personally if i had the money to buy one i would i just was curious if anyone might have any idea why Banksy may be doing this (aside from financially supporting himself). You act as if he had control over how big he got / how much his work resonated with the masses. We have no idea if Banksy is donating tons of his money or blowing it all on coke and expensive sports car. No offense, but I think your post is pointless - the message behind the image doesn't change whether it sold for 50 GBP on POW years ago or thousands on Ebay or in a gallery maybe not that many people see the message behind the image anymore .. all they see is banksy signature and POW numbering .. and the cash from ebay .. but that shouldn't be the reason to stop producing art for him .. .. well .. thats just another theory |
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Banksy selling, by corblimeylimey on Feb 14, 2007 12:26:29 GMT 1, 100% of the proceeds of his last print Flag went to charity, that was ยฃ100,000.
100% of the proceeds of his last print Flag went to charity, that was ยฃ100,000.
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Banksy selling, by tomhills1 on Feb 14, 2007 12:36:19 GMT 1, ........ you would be an idiot to turn down 5 million quid?
is that what nike have been repeatedly offering him to no avail? like so many have said we don't know where the money goes. when the arctic monkeys do a tour their tickets are around ยฃ15, a pair on ebay is well over a hundred, is that their fault for being so fucking good?
maybe mr banks uses his funds to cover the cost of going to palestine and whatever he has lined up next, plus he may never work again so has to have a reasonable pension fund.
whoever says to have principles means you have to be salt-of-the-earth and borrasic is an idiot in my opinion.
good luck to him, it's those around him selling out on his behalf if anything.
........ you would be an idiot to turn down 5 million quid? is that what nike have been repeatedly offering him to no avail? like so many have said we don't know where the money goes. when the arctic monkeys do a tour their tickets are around ยฃ15, a pair on ebay is well over a hundred, is that their fault for being so fucking good? maybe mr banks uses his funds to cover the cost of going to palestine and whatever he has lined up next, plus he may never work again so has to have a reasonable pension fund. whoever says to have principles means you have to be salt-of-the-earth and borrasic is an idiot in my opinion. good luck to him, it's those around him selling out on his behalf if anything. |
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Curley
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,012
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June 2006
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Banksy selling, by Curley on Feb 14, 2007 13:31:50 GMT 1, He also has to pay his gallery/manager 50% and the tax man like everyone else.
He also has to pay his gallery/manager 50% and the tax man like everyone else.
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RBK
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,924
Likes โข 104
September 2006
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Banksy selling, by RBK on Feb 14, 2007 16:30:36 GMT 1, You act as if he had control over how big he got / how much his work resonated with the masses. We have no idea if Banksy is donating tons of his money or blowing it all on coke and expensive sports car. No offense, but I think your post is pointless - the message behind the image doesn't change whether it sold for 50 GBP on POW years ago or thousands on Ebay or in a gallery maybe not that many people see the message behind the image anymore .. all they see is banksy signature and POW numbering .. and the cash from ebay .. but that shouldn't be the reason to stop producing art for him .. .. well .. thats just another theory
Speak for yourself - all but two of my Banksy's are hanging in my home so I can enjoy the images.
You act as if he had control over how big he got / how much his work resonated with the masses. We have no idea if Banksy is donating tons of his money or blowing it all on coke and expensive sports car. No offense, but I think your post is pointless - the message behind the image doesn't change whether it sold for 50 GBP on POW years ago or thousands on Ebay or in a gallery maybe not that many people see the message behind the image anymore .. all they see is banksy signature and POW numbering .. and the cash from ebay .. but that shouldn't be the reason to stop producing art for him .. .. well .. thats just another theory Speak for yourself - all but two of my Banksy's are hanging in my home so I can enjoy the images. |
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Banksy selling, by tomhills1 on Feb 14, 2007 16:52:31 GMT 1, maybe not that many people see the message behind the image anymore .. all they see is banksy signature and POW numbering .. and the cash from ebay .. but that shouldn't be the reason to stop producing art for him .. .. well .. thats just another theory Speak for yourself - all but two of my Banksy's are hanging in my home so I can enjoy the images.
too right fella, that's how it should be!
maybe not that many people see the message behind the image anymore .. all they see is banksy signature and POW numbering .. and the cash from ebay .. but that shouldn't be the reason to stop producing art for him .. .. well .. thats just another theory Speak for yourself - all but two of my Banksy's are hanging in my home so I can enjoy the images. too right fella, that's how it should be! |
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ogrgel
New Member
Posts โข 502
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December 2006
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Banksy selling, by ogrgel on Feb 14, 2007 16:57:43 GMT 1, maybe not that many people see the message behind the image anymore .. all they see is banksy signature and POW numbering .. and the cash from ebay .. but that shouldn't be the reason to stop producing art for him .. .. well .. thats just another theory Speak for yourself - all but two of my Banksy's are hanging in my home so I can enjoy the images.
thats exactly what I am saying .. are they just hanging there or the message got to you somehow ..
Q: did Banksy change your life ?
A: ...........................................
;D
maybe not that many people see the message behind the image anymore .. all they see is banksy signature and POW numbering .. and the cash from ebay .. but that shouldn't be the reason to stop producing art for him .. .. well .. thats just another theory Speak for yourself - all but two of my Banksy's are hanging in my home so I can enjoy the images. thats exactly what I am saying .. are they just hanging there or the message got to you somehow .. Q: did Banksy change your life ? A: ........................................... ;D |
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Banksy selling, by corblimeylimey on Feb 14, 2007 17:58:11 GMT 1, Speak for yourself - all but two of my Banksy's are hanging in my home so I can enjoy the images. thats exactly what I am saying .. are they just hanging there or the message got to you somehow .. Q: did Banksy change your life ? A: ........................................... ;D
No, Banksy didn't change my life at all, I think if I wasn't the kind of guy I am I wouldn't have liked his stuff in the first place.
Speak for yourself - all but two of my Banksy's are hanging in my home so I can enjoy the images. thats exactly what I am saying .. are they just hanging there or the message got to you somehow .. Q: did Banksy change your life ? A: ........................................... ;D No, Banksy didn't change my life at all, I think if I wasn't the kind of guy I am I wouldn't have liked his stuff in the first place. |
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pastiepie
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Posts โข 446
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October 2006
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Banksy selling, by pastiepie on Feb 15, 2007 1:39:39 GMT 1, Arctic Monkey's are over-rated IMHO.
Banksy obviously has some control over prices etc. He has targeted the mass media with his stunts, ala Paris Hilton and also by hiring a very expensive PR firm.
Arctic Monkey's are over-rated IMHO.
Banksy obviously has some control over prices etc. He has targeted the mass media with his stunts, ala Paris Hilton and also by hiring a very expensive PR firm.
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dbb1188
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Posts โข 5
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February 2007
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Banksy selling, by dbb1188 on Feb 15, 2007 2:22:40 GMT 1, no offense to anyone who has responded but for as little as the world knows about Banksy people are talking about this mystery figure as if they know him personally. claiming banksy is giving away money is as good a guess as him wasting all of his money on blow, for all i know he is a leading cancer research doctor and is funding his research. your guess is as good as mine. But through looking at his artwork he has constnatly been a voice for the little man (thus is constant usage of rats.. someone from the bottom getting their time to shine) and i think its contradictary to his message that his prints are so far out of the normal artists price range, sorry for thinking this and if you think your opinion is more valid than mine i dont care all that much however id like to know why your opinion is more valid than mine given the fact that no one on this blog knows more than 3 or 4 things about Banksy.
thank you
no offense to anyone who has responded but for as little as the world knows about Banksy people are talking about this mystery figure as if they know him personally. claiming banksy is giving away money is as good a guess as him wasting all of his money on blow, for all i know he is a leading cancer research doctor and is funding his research. your guess is as good as mine. But through looking at his artwork he has constnatly been a voice for the little man (thus is constant usage of rats.. someone from the bottom getting their time to shine) and i think its contradictary to his message that his prints are so far out of the normal artists price range, sorry for thinking this and if you think your opinion is more valid than mine i dont care all that much however id like to know why your opinion is more valid than mine given the fact that no one on this blog knows more than 3 or 4 things about Banksy.
thank you
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BK83
Junior Member
Posts โข 1,604
Likes โข 10
October 2006
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Banksy selling, by BK83 on Feb 15, 2007 6:22:19 GMT 1, Banksy has never been a spokesman for the middleclass -- what he is, is a talented businessman with an artistic gift who found an urban niche that could connect with the masses . At the end of the day, anyone who does anything public and associates their name with it (in the case of Banksy -- signing his street artwork) that person is looking for notoriety. Banksy just happened to have a great concept of using notoriety in anonymity as a tool for fame.
Lets be honest, Banksy is one of the greatest cases of a well executed PR campaign ever! Everyone i'm sure saw the woostercollective 'Banksy Effect' article with pics of his "first" gallery showing of sorts way back in 2000 -- just a mural with selected stencils on a random (now infamous Banksy spot) in London. From the beginning stunts like these have obviously been part of a grander scheme and have carried on to more modern day stunts like Disneyland, Paris Hilton, the Palestine wall trip, secret warehouse shows that no one knows about until the day of, statue unveilings etc. these are all well orchestrated PR stunts -- He had a vision that was easily adaptable and ultimately that others believed in -- case in point -- LAz.
Subversive art is not new -- Banksy did not invent it. I do not doubt that he believes in the messages his art conveys -- nothing can be as successful as he is without some sort of passion in the work -- but as for comments on him "selling out" or not being "for the little guy" anymore. Forget it. He never was. You just thought he was because you bought his personal marketing campaign.
I am in no way having a go at Banksy -- I love him and I love his work and all that he stands for -- and I love the concepts and messages of his art -- Im just telling it how I see it. As the Wooster article mentioned -- Banksy is perhaps the single greatest movement in the more recent contemporary art scene and he will undoubtedly stand the test of time, so please, think before you speak -- he definately did not sell out -- you bought in.
J
Banksy has never been a spokesman for the middleclass -- what he is, is a talented businessman with an artistic gift who found an urban niche that could connect with the masses . At the end of the day, anyone who does anything public and associates their name with it (in the case of Banksy -- signing his street artwork) that person is looking for notoriety. Banksy just happened to have a great concept of using notoriety in anonymity as a tool for fame.
Lets be honest, Banksy is one of the greatest cases of a well executed PR campaign ever! Everyone i'm sure saw the woostercollective 'Banksy Effect' article with pics of his "first" gallery showing of sorts way back in 2000 -- just a mural with selected stencils on a random (now infamous Banksy spot) in London. From the beginning stunts like these have obviously been part of a grander scheme and have carried on to more modern day stunts like Disneyland, Paris Hilton, the Palestine wall trip, secret warehouse shows that no one knows about until the day of, statue unveilings etc. these are all well orchestrated PR stunts -- He had a vision that was easily adaptable and ultimately that others believed in -- case in point -- LAz.
Subversive art is not new -- Banksy did not invent it. I do not doubt that he believes in the messages his art conveys -- nothing can be as successful as he is without some sort of passion in the work -- but as for comments on him "selling out" or not being "for the little guy" anymore. Forget it. He never was. You just thought he was because you bought his personal marketing campaign.
I am in no way having a go at Banksy -- I love him and I love his work and all that he stands for -- and I love the concepts and messages of his art -- Im just telling it how I see it. As the Wooster article mentioned -- Banksy is perhaps the single greatest movement in the more recent contemporary art scene and he will undoubtedly stand the test of time, so please, think before you speak -- he definately did not sell out -- you bought in.
J
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dwight
New Member
Posts โข 539
Likes โข 285
November 2006
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Banksy selling, by dwight on Feb 15, 2007 7:42:54 GMT 1, The other day I received a love is in the air that I bought. In transit it was bent in the middle. I was very upset. I have filed a claim and it looks like they are going to refund all my money and let me keep the print. My first thought was to sell the one for salvage and buy another one, but after I looked at it, I realized that it will look great framed reguardless of some minor scuffing. So in the end liking the image is more important than the value on down the road.
The other day I received a love is in the air that I bought. In transit it was bent in the middle. I was very upset. I have filed a claim and it looks like they are going to refund all my money and let me keep the print. My first thought was to sell the one for salvage and buy another one, but after I looked at it, I realized that it will look great framed reguardless of some minor scuffing. So in the end liking the image is more important than the value on down the road.
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ogrgel
New Member
Posts โข 502
Likes โข 20
December 2006
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Banksy selling, by ogrgel on Feb 15, 2007 10:17:41 GMT 1, I think it's about time to start using plural when talking about Banksy .. there is not just him anymore ..
I think it's about time to start using plural when talking about Banksy .. there is not just him anymore ..
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Banksy selling, by tomhills1 on Feb 15, 2007 12:16:56 GMT 1, Banksy has never been a spokesman for the middleclass -- what he is, is a talented businessman with an artistic gift who found an urban niche that could connect with the masses . At the end of the day, anyone who does anything public and associates their name with it (in the case of Banksy -- signing his street artwork) that person is looking for notoriety. Banksy just happened to have a great concept of using notoriety in anonymity as a tool for fame. Lets be honest, Banksy is one of the greatest cases of a well executed PR campaign ever! Everyone i'm sure saw the woostercollective 'Banksy Effect' article with pics of his "first" gallery showing of sorts way back in 2000 -- just a mural with selected stencils on a random (now infamous Banksy spot) in London. From the beginning stunts like these have obviously been part of a grander scheme and have carried on to more modern day stunts like Disneyland, Paris Hilton, the Palestine wall trip, secret warehouse shows that no one knows about until the day of, statue unveilings etc. these are all well orchestrated PR stunts -- He had a vision that was easily adaptable and ultimately that others believed in -- case in point -- LAz. Subversive art is not new -- Banksy did not invent it. I do not doubt that he believes in the messages his art conveys -- nothing can be as successful as he is without some sort of passion in the work -- but as for comments on him "selling out" or not being "for the little guy" anymore. Forget it. He never was. You just thought he was because you bought his personal marketing campaign. I am in no way having a go at Banksy -- I love him and I love his work and all that he stands for -- and I love the concepts and messages of his art -- Im just telling it how I see it. As the Wooster article mentioned -- Banksy is perhaps the single greatest movement in the more recent contemporary art scene and he will undoubtedly stand the test of time, so please, think before you speak -- he definately did not sell out -- you bought in. J
totally, i confess i'm a much more recent convert to his work than the majority of you on here. it was the hype and media coverage that brought him to my attention, if it were not for jo brooks and her well oiled publicity machine, i'd be none the wiser.
this might not go down too well, and i'm sure i'll lose respect, but maybe some people are a bit precious that they found him first. it's almost like he's their toy and no-one else can play with it. i think it's healthy to have different views from people with different ideas and different experiences of banksy's work.
i love hearing stories of how people used to see a piece by him on the way to work and for years never knew it was him. of those who know their art (definately not me) and were in from the start, weighing up whether or not to pay that extra fifty quid for a signed print or not!
i can't say whether he sold out or not, as has been pointed out, because i bought in. and i'm not ashamed of that.
p.s pastiepie, they're not, they're underrated!
Banksy has never been a spokesman for the middleclass -- what he is, is a talented businessman with an artistic gift who found an urban niche that could connect with the masses . At the end of the day, anyone who does anything public and associates their name with it (in the case of Banksy -- signing his street artwork) that person is looking for notoriety. Banksy just happened to have a great concept of using notoriety in anonymity as a tool for fame. Lets be honest, Banksy is one of the greatest cases of a well executed PR campaign ever! Everyone i'm sure saw the woostercollective 'Banksy Effect' article with pics of his "first" gallery showing of sorts way back in 2000 -- just a mural with selected stencils on a random (now infamous Banksy spot) in London. From the beginning stunts like these have obviously been part of a grander scheme and have carried on to more modern day stunts like Disneyland, Paris Hilton, the Palestine wall trip, secret warehouse shows that no one knows about until the day of, statue unveilings etc. these are all well orchestrated PR stunts -- He had a vision that was easily adaptable and ultimately that others believed in -- case in point -- LAz. Subversive art is not new -- Banksy did not invent it. I do not doubt that he believes in the messages his art conveys -- nothing can be as successful as he is without some sort of passion in the work -- but as for comments on him "selling out" or not being "for the little guy" anymore. Forget it. He never was. You just thought he was because you bought his personal marketing campaign. I am in no way having a go at Banksy -- I love him and I love his work and all that he stands for -- and I love the concepts and messages of his art -- Im just telling it how I see it. As the Wooster article mentioned -- Banksy is perhaps the single greatest movement in the more recent contemporary art scene and he will undoubtedly stand the test of time, so please, think before you speak -- he definately did not sell out -- you bought in. J totally, i confess i'm a much more recent convert to his work than the majority of you on here. it was the hype and media coverage that brought him to my attention, if it were not for jo brooks and her well oiled publicity machine, i'd be none the wiser. this might not go down too well, and i'm sure i'll lose respect, but maybe some people are a bit precious that they found him first. it's almost like he's their toy and no-one else can play with it. i think it's healthy to have different views from people with different ideas and different experiences of banksy's work. i love hearing stories of how people used to see a piece by him on the way to work and for years never knew it was him. of those who know their art (definately not me) and were in from the start, weighing up whether or not to pay that extra fifty quid for a signed print or not! i can't say whether he sold out or not, as has been pointed out, because i bought in. and i'm not ashamed of that. p.s pastiepie, they're not, they're underrated! |
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ogrgel
New Member
Posts โข 502
Likes โข 20
December 2006
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Banksy selling, by ogrgel on Feb 15, 2007 12:24:32 GMT 1, you definitely have my respect
you definitely have my respect
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Banksy selling, by monkeypuzzle on Feb 15, 2007 13:25:21 GMT 1, I think its great that new people are getting onto the banksy thing, as each new convert / interested person comes with their own set of theories, interests and opinions on different artists, introducing us to the likes of micallef, walker, d-face, neate, brookes etc etc etc..... Can lead to some great discussions too.
I think its great that new people are getting onto the banksy thing, as each new convert / interested person comes with their own set of theories, interests and opinions on different artists, introducing us to the likes of micallef, walker, d-face, neate, brookes etc etc etc..... Can lead to some great discussions too.
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