tadghostal
New Member
Posts โข 491
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February 2007
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Proper Provenance for Prints, by tadghostal on Feb 22, 2007 19:00:47 GMT 1, Say that 5 times fast. ;D
I've got two scenarios that both seem OK, but not ideal, and was hoping for some feedback from the old timers here.
I like flying copper, and there appears to be a good one on ebay right now:
cgi.ebay.co.uk/BANKSY-Flying-Copper-Extremely-rare_W0QQitemZ320084774313QQihZ011QQcategoryZ360QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
The seller has stated he is on file with POW as the owner, but he does not have any paper documents to prove the chain of ownership. How much of a problem is this, if any?
Next is an Applause where the seller is not the original owner. He has a copy of the email confirmation he claims was from the person he bought it from. But again, no paper documentation to accompany the print. Same question. How much of a problem is this, if any?
Say that 5 times fast. ;D I've got two scenarios that both seem OK, but not ideal, and was hoping for some feedback from the old timers here. I like flying copper, and there appears to be a good one on ebay right now: cgi.ebay.co.uk/BANKSY-Flying-Copper-Extremely-rare_W0QQitemZ320084774313QQihZ011QQcategoryZ360QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItemThe seller has stated he is on file with POW as the owner, but he does not have any paper documents to prove the chain of ownership. How much of a problem is this, if any? Next is an Applause where the seller is not the original owner. He has a copy of the email confirmation he claims was from the person he bought it from. But again, no paper documentation to accompany the print. Same question. How much of a problem is this, if any? |
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tadghostal
New Member
Posts โข 491
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February 2007
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ziggy
New Member
Posts โข 92
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October 2006
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Proper Provenance for Prints, by ziggy on Feb 22, 2007 19:07:59 GMT 1, POW does not send paper invoices with prints now so an email confirmation is about as good as it get's with Grannies, Applause, etc. I think provenance is important for older prints though, having said that I do think a lot of people are getting very caught up in wanting provenance for newer prints that have never been faked or will probably never be.
POW does not send paper invoices with prints now so an email confirmation is about as good as it get's with Grannies, Applause, etc. I think provenance is important for older prints though, having said that I do think a lot of people are getting very caught up in wanting provenance for newer prints that have never been faked or will probably never be.
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tadghostal
New Member
Posts โข 491
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February 2007
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Proper Provenance for Prints, by tadghostal on Feb 22, 2007 19:40:01 GMT 1, So are you saying that both of those situations appear to be on the up & up?
So are you saying that both of those situations appear to be on the up & up?
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goffy
Junior Member
Posts โข 1,401
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November 2006
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Proper Provenance for Prints, by goffy on Feb 22, 2007 19:46:27 GMT 1, I bought a signed Golf Sale in 2003 and didn't bother printing off the receipt, didn't think I would need to. I believe POW can confirm that I bought it but since I'm not selling, it's not an issue.
I bought a signed Golf Sale in 2003 and didn't bother printing off the receipt, didn't think I would need to. I believe POW can confirm that I bought it but since I'm not selling, it's not an issue.
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lesroy
Junior Member
Posts โข 1,281
Likes โข 1
July 2006
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Proper Provenance for Prints, by lesroy on Feb 22, 2007 20:06:51 GMT 1, i assume you noticed the damage on the Grin Reaper mate?
i assume you noticed the damage on the Grin Reaper mate?
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frank11
Junior Member
Posts โข 1,190
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September 2006
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Proper Provenance for Prints, by frank11 on Feb 22, 2007 20:11:06 GMT 1, The guy with the GR should have taken it out of the tube a bit sooner and could probably have got it changed by POW
The guy with the GR should have taken it out of the tube a bit sooner and could probably have got it changed by POW
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Proper Provenance for Prints, by manchestermike on Feb 22, 2007 20:56:41 GMT 1, It's difficult, I bought my MQ off eBay in 2005 (July) and never thought to ask for provenance. So I'm stuck if the time came I ever had to sell
It's difficult, I bought my MQ off eBay in 2005 (July) and never thought to ask for provenance. So I'm stuck if the time came I ever had to sell
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Run Pig Run
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,437
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January 2006
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Proper Provenance for Prints, by Run Pig Run on Feb 22, 2007 21:21:18 GMT 1, I bought a few prints from santas ghetto this years no one asked for my name and I paid in cash. there is no record that I own these, but i don't give a fuck because they are on my wall.
I bought a few prints from santas ghetto this years no one asked for my name and I paid in cash. there is no record that I own these, but i don't give a fuck because they are on my wall.
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Proper Provenance for Prints, by corblimeylimey on Feb 22, 2007 21:30:04 GMT 1, The POW email is worth nothing!  all they tell you is that someone got one of those pictures from POW on the date for that much  It dunt tell you who or what number the print was The best way is to contact POW to see what name the print is recorded as being sold to  Simple ;D Sorry, POW  your email and phone is gonna be red hot ;D
My POW emails since Grannies (26th Oct) have had my name, full address, email and phone number on as well as print title and run size Not the number of the print though.
Silky, are you talking about emails for older prints?
The POW email is worth nothing! all they tell you is that someone got one of those pictures from POW on the date for that much It dunt tell you who or what number the print was The best way is to contact POW to see what name the print is recorded as being sold to Simple ;D Sorry, POW your email and phone is gonna be red hot ;D My POW emails since Grannies (26th Oct) have had my name, full address, email and phone number on as well as print title and run size Not the number of the print though. Silky, are you talking about emails for older prints? |
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Proper Provenance for Prints, by Daniel Silk on Feb 22, 2007 21:39:51 GMT 1, The POW email is worth nothing! all they tell you is that someone got one of those pictures from POW on the date for that much It dunt tell you who or what number the print was The best way is to contact POW to see what name the print is recorded as being sold to Simple ;D Sorry, POW your email and phone is gonna be red hot ;D My POW emails since Grannies (26th Oct) have had my name, full address, email and phone number on as well as print title and run size Not the number of the print though. Silky, are you talking about emails for older prints?
Ahh yeah, sorry  The emails will have the name and address on, but without the print number it dunt really mean much I was thinkin about a printed receipt that came in the tube with the print.
Im not saying this is happening but  someone could buy a print from POW, get the email, then print some fake copies of the picture, and sell them all with copies of the email, could they not?
The POW email is worth nothing! all they tell you is that someone got one of those pictures from POW on the date for that much It dunt tell you who or what number the print was The best way is to contact POW to see what name the print is recorded as being sold to Simple ;D Sorry, POW your email and phone is gonna be red hot ;D My POW emails since Grannies (26th Oct) have had my name, full address, email and phone number on as well as print title and run size Not the number of the print though. Silky, are you talking about emails for older prints? Ahh yeah, sorry The emails will have the name and address on, but without the print number it dunt really mean much I was thinkin about a printed receipt that came in the tube with the print. Im not saying this is happening but someone could buy a print from POW, get the email, then print some fake copies of the picture, and sell them all with copies of the email, could they not? |
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Proper Provenance for Prints, by corblimeylimey on Feb 22, 2007 21:53:20 GMT 1, Yep, done it many a time, no one seems to care.
Yep, done it many a time, no one seems to care. |
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Proper Provenance for Prints, by irf2112 on Feb 22, 2007 21:53:57 GMT 1, The POW order confirmation number is the number that determines who owns what. When prints are brought/sold the owner details can be changed at POW so if the new owner decides to sell again they''re details are with POW... I'm assuming POW uses a spreadsheet or database to hold print information.
The POW order confirmation number is the number that determines who owns what. When prints are brought/sold the owner details can be changed at POW so if the new owner decides to sell again they''re details are with POW... I'm assuming POW uses a spreadsheet or database to hold print information.
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Proper Provenance for Prints, by Daniel Silk on Feb 22, 2007 21:54:08 GMT 1, I bought a few prints from santas ghetto this years no one asked for my name and I paid in cash. there is no record that I own these, but i don't give a f**k because they are on my wall.
They dint ask ya name? 
When I went in they got ya name, then done a list of what you wanted they went of out the back to get it all packed up, then put it out behind the main deck for you to collect by name ;D
If you dint take ya name did they have the prints you wanted ready to go by the tills?
I bought a few prints from santas ghetto this years no one asked for my name and I paid in cash. there is no record that I own these, but i don't give a f**k because they are on my wall. They dint ask ya name? When I went in they got ya name, then done a list of what you wanted they went of out the back to get it all packed up, then put it out behind the main deck for you to collect by name ;D If you dint take ya name did they have the prints you wanted ready to go by the tills? |
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Proper Provenance for Prints, by Daniel Silk on Feb 22, 2007 21:56:32 GMT 1, The POW order confirmation number is the number that determines who owns what. When prints are brought/sold the owner details can be changed at POW so if the new owner decides to sell again they''re details are with POW... I'm assuming POW uses a spreadsheet or database to hold print information.
Are you saying POW keep the system up to date each time a print is resold? how are they doing that?
The POW order confirmation number is the number that determines who owns what. When prints are brought/sold the owner details can be changed at POW so if the new owner decides to sell again they''re details are with POW... I'm assuming POW uses a spreadsheet or database to hold print information. Are you saying POW keep the system up to date each time a print is resold? how are they doing that? |
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Proper Provenance for Prints, by numusic on Feb 22, 2007 21:59:58 GMT 1, The POW order confirmation number is the number that determines who owns what. When prints are brought/sold the owner details can be changed at POW so if the new owner decides to sell again they''re details are with POW... I'm assuming POW uses a spreadsheet or database to hold print information.
Not the case with the older prints, remember these were sold at lots of different places, from the tate, selfridges, art republic, tom tom, greenleaf etc etc.. all they have is a record of which older ones went to which store. And considering no one was buying as an investment then very very few kept receipts.
The POW order confirmation number is the number that determines who owns what. When prints are brought/sold the owner details can be changed at POW so if the new owner decides to sell again they''re details are with POW... I'm assuming POW uses a spreadsheet or database to hold print information. Not the case with the older prints, remember these were sold at lots of different places, from the tate, selfridges, art republic, tom tom, greenleaf etc etc.. all they have is a record of which older ones went to which store. And considering no one was buying as an investment then very very few kept receipts. |
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ร
gentรacardi
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,037
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September 2006
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Proper Provenance for Prints, by ร
gentรacardi on Feb 22, 2007 22:00:58 GMT 1, The POW order confirmation number is the number that determines who owns what. When prints are brought/sold the owner details can be changed at POW so if the new owner decides to sell again they''re details are with POW... I'm assuming POW uses a spreadsheet or database to hold print information. Are you saying POW keep the system up to date each time a print is resold? how are they doing that?
Do they really do that? That would be a rather large can of worms to maintain, wouldn't it?
I agree that there should be a database like that to keep things honest. But it's probably too much work and too little returns... who would pay for such a service?
The POW order confirmation number is the number that determines who owns what. When prints are brought/sold the owner details can be changed at POW so if the new owner decides to sell again they''re details are with POW... I'm assuming POW uses a spreadsheet or database to hold print information. Are you saying POW keep the system up to date each time a print is resold? how are they doing that? Do they really do that? That would be a rather large can of worms to maintain, wouldn't it? I agree that there should be a database like that to keep things honest. But it's probably too much work and too little returns... who would pay for such a service? |
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Proper Provenance for Prints, by Daniel Silk on Feb 22, 2007 22:08:13 GMT 1, Are you saying POW keep the system up to date each time a print is resold? how are they doing that? Do they really do that? That would be a rather large can of worms to maintain, wouldn't it? I agree that there should be a database like that to keep things honest. But it's probably too much work and too little returns... who would pay for such a service?
Yeah, I know people would like to see some sort of system like that but its completely impossible Massive! Massive! job, and its too late really
Are you saying POW keep the system up to date each time a print is resold? how are they doing that? Do they really do that? That would be a rather large can of worms to maintain, wouldn't it? I agree that there should be a database like that to keep things honest. But it's probably too much work and too little returns... who would pay for such a service? Yeah, I know people would like to see some sort of system like that but its completely impossible Massive! Massive! job, and its too late really |
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sputnikeye
New Member
Posts โข 761
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August 2006
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Proper Provenance for Prints, by sputnikeye on Feb 22, 2007 22:52:43 GMT 1, I've got an unsigned barcode without the provenance and i'm the original owner, I bought it when I had hotmail and they scrapped my inbox when I went travelling. I keep meaning to email POW to see if some sort of confirmation can be obtained but they always seems so busy....
I've got an unsigned barcode without the provenance and i'm the original owner, I bought it when I had hotmail and they scrapped my inbox when I went travelling. I keep meaning to email POW to see if some sort of confirmation can be obtained but they always seems so busy....
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RBK
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,924
Likes โข 104
September 2006
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Proper Provenance for Prints, by RBK on Feb 22, 2007 23:01:00 GMT 1, Do they really do that? That would be a rather large can of worms to maintain, wouldn't it? I agree that there should be a database like that to keep things honest. But it's probably too much work and too little returns... who would pay for such a service? Yeah, I know people would like to see some sort of system like that but its completely impossible Massive! Massive! job, and its too late really
POW already provides an invaluable service by keeping track of the original purchaser. There is NO way that they are keeping track of where the print goes after the original sale.
Everyone, please remember that provenance is the 'history or story' behind a piece. Provenance is not a COA. When buying a Banksy print I recommend that you either have COA (like an original receipt) or some form of provenance to show how the print has exchanged hands from the beginning. This can include but is not limited to: emails from POW establishing original owner, paypal transaction logs, bank/cc statements, signed letter of provenance from a seller, etc. As long as you can 'prove' that your print is legitimate through the various transactions you have that magical word - provenance.
Do they really do that? That would be a rather large can of worms to maintain, wouldn't it? I agree that there should be a database like that to keep things honest. But it's probably too much work and too little returns... who would pay for such a service? Yeah, I know people would like to see some sort of system like that but its completely impossible Massive! Massive! job, and its too late really POW already provides an invaluable service by keeping track of the original purchaser. There is NO way that they are keeping track of where the print goes after the original sale. Everyone, please remember that provenance is the 'history or story' behind a piece. Provenance is not a COA. When buying a Banksy print I recommend that you either have COA (like an original receipt) or some form of provenance to show how the print has exchanged hands from the beginning. This can include but is not limited to: emails from POW establishing original owner, paypal transaction logs, bank/cc statements, signed letter of provenance from a seller, etc. As long as you can 'prove' that your print is legitimate through the various transactions you have that magical word - provenance. |
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lesroy
Junior Member
Posts โข 1,281
Likes โข 1
July 2006
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Proper Provenance for Prints, by lesroy on Feb 23, 2007 8:55:02 GMT 1, By the way... POW will not update the names on their database, the original purchaser is all they will know.
By the way... POW will not update the names on their database, the original purchaser is all they will know.
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Proper Provenance for Prints, by irf2112 on Feb 23, 2007 11:52:25 GMT 1, By the way... POW will not update the names on their database, the original purchaser is all they will know.
Thats a shame - all it would require would be a few additional attributes and a little effort to update tuples (sorry DB speak - major part of my 'past life')
As for someone saying it was a 'massive job'. I dont think so - regarding databases i think it'd be quite small... Afterall it could be done on Access if required.
I could probably do it in an hour (inc. all forms) then it'd be around 2 weeks data entry... Job done...
By the way... POW will not update the names on their database, the original purchaser is all they will know. Thats a shame - all it would require would be a few additional attributes and a little effort to update tuples (sorry DB speak - major part of my 'past life') As for someone saying it was a 'massive job'. I dont think so - regarding databases i think it'd be quite small... Afterall it could be done on Access if required. I could probably do it in an hour (inc. all forms) then it'd be around 2 weeks data entry... Job done... |
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Proper Provenance for Prints, by slowmo on Feb 23, 2007 11:58:55 GMT 1, Database wise it would be easy, but confirming through contact with the seller who the new owner is an admin job that would require an employee to sit on the phone. They would also need to maintain the contact details, address changes, contact number etc. Would be expensive and ultimately would just be a loss on the P&L for the year.
The only way I would do it would be to offer the original buyer the opportunity to update the record to the new buyer for an administrative fee, which I would then spend on beer.
Database wise it would be easy, but confirming through contact with the seller who the new owner is an admin job that would require an employee to sit on the phone. They would also need to maintain the contact details, address changes, contact number etc. Would be expensive and ultimately would just be a loss on the P&L for the year.
The only way I would do it would be to offer the original buyer the opportunity to update the record to the new buyer for an administrative fee, which I would then spend on beer.
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Proper Provenance for Prints, by irf2112 on Feb 23, 2007 12:11:41 GMT 1, obviously with such a system in place - one could charge say ยฃ5-10 per search. This would cover someones wage + a bit extra on the side... I think you could even charge ยฃ20.
Why would the employee have to sit by the phone? It could be done via email. No need to maintain contact details - not 100% necessary. If required could be a charge of a fiver... So I disagree on the expense...
If such a system was in place it'd benefit all - possibilities of counterfitting would be down. I for one am all for such a system.
You've got to remember when POW sold out all Applause prints it was ยฃ240K worth. Lets say they get 20% - thats 48K... Off 1 print...So I think their books are looking good.
obviously with such a system in place - one could charge say ยฃ5-10 per search. This would cover someones wage + a bit extra on the side... I think you could even charge ยฃ20.
Why would the employee have to sit by the phone? It could be done via email. No need to maintain contact details - not 100% necessary. If required could be a charge of a fiver... So I disagree on the expense...
If such a system was in place it'd benefit all - possibilities of counterfitting would be down. I for one am all for such a system.
You've got to remember when POW sold out all Applause prints it was ยฃ240K worth. Lets say they get 20% - thats 48K... Off 1 print...So I think their books are looking good.
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Proper Provenance for Prints, by slowmo on Feb 23, 2007 12:21:57 GMT 1, They would need to be on the phone as it is wide open to fraud. Would take bank bills and proof of ID for the previous owner to be presented before any change could be made, the new owner would need to provide details as well. Maybe not so much time spent on the phone so you're right there, but to protect people from just stealing numbers to produce fakes I guess would be a long winded task, like changing your details at a bank.
They would need to be on the phone as it is wide open to fraud. Would take bank bills and proof of ID for the previous owner to be presented before any change could be made, the new owner would need to provide details as well. Maybe not so much time spent on the phone so you're right there, but to protect people from just stealing numbers to produce fakes I guess would be a long winded task, like changing your details at a bank.
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Mrs Mouse
New Member
Posts โข 147
Likes โข 26
December 2006
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Proper Provenance for Prints, by Mrs Mouse on Feb 23, 2007 12:34:32 GMT 1, Where does POW stand with data protection? If you're thinking of buying a print and you are supplied with the name of the original purchaser and then contact POW to check out the provenance, will they actually give you the name of the purchaser? What if the original owner has sold it on and does not want to be identified?
Don't POW get fed up of people contacting them all the time about this?
Where does POW stand with data protection? If you're thinking of buying a print and you are supplied with the name of the original purchaser and then contact POW to check out the provenance, will they actually give you the name of the purchaser? What if the original owner has sold it on and does not want to be identified?
Don't POW get fed up of people contacting them all the time about this?
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Proper Provenance for Prints, by slowmo on Feb 23, 2007 12:37:51 GMT 1, I guess if you were selling you would email POW yourself and give the response to the potential buyer. I should imagine its a bit of a pain to them, but re-selling is a marketing tool to them so worth it, like free PR.
I guess if you were selling you would email POW yourself and give the response to the potential buyer. I should imagine its a bit of a pain to them, but re-selling is a marketing tool to them so worth it, like free PR.
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Proper Provenance for Prints, by manchestermike on Feb 23, 2007 12:43:39 GMT 1, Just a question
Has there ever been any fake Banksy prints on eBay? I know there's the un-numbered backdoor stuff, but how easy is it to fake a screenprint? To get the exact same colours etc... I know sprayed canvases are different, with stencils etc readily available, but that's not the issue here
Seems a bit like getting worked up over not a lot at the moment.
Just a question
Has there ever been any fake Banksy prints on eBay? I know there's the un-numbered backdoor stuff, but how easy is it to fake a screenprint? To get the exact same colours etc... I know sprayed canvases are different, with stencils etc readily available, but that's not the issue here
Seems a bit like getting worked up over not a lot at the moment.
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Proper Provenance for Prints, by irf2112 on Feb 23, 2007 12:47:31 GMT 1, They would need to be on the phone as it is wide open to fraud. Would take bank bills and proof of ID for the previous owner to be presented before any change could be made, the new owner would need to provide details as well. Maybe not so much time spent on the phone so you're right there, but to protect people from just stealing numbers to produce fakes I guess would be a long winded task, like changing your details at a bank.
I dont think it'd be that 'drastic'. All that would be required would be:
- New owner contacts POW with POW order Ref and details of print. (Print number). As well as say address of previous owner. Then POW contacts previous owner and verifies change of ownership. Updates DB (dont need to delete original personal details, can have a 'new owner attribute' (several). Will charge for service and it could all be done in 5-10 minutes...
At the end of the day - it'd be a better system then the one in place at the moment..
They would need to be on the phone as it is wide open to fraud. Would take bank bills and proof of ID for the previous owner to be presented before any change could be made, the new owner would need to provide details as well. Maybe not so much time spent on the phone so you're right there, but to protect people from just stealing numbers to produce fakes I guess would be a long winded task, like changing your details at a bank. I dont think it'd be that 'drastic'. All that would be required would be: - New owner contacts POW with POW order Ref and details of print. (Print number). As well as say address of previous owner. Then POW contacts previous owner and verifies change of ownership. Updates DB (dont need to delete original personal details, can have a 'new owner attribute' (several). Will charge for service and it could all be done in 5-10 minutes... At the end of the day - it'd be a better system then the one in place at the moment.. |
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all they tell you is that someone got one of those pictures from POW on the date for that much 
It dunt tell you who or what number the print was 
Simple ;D
your email and phone is gonna be red hot 
The emails will have the name and address on, but without the print number it dunt really mean much 
someone could buy a print from POW, get the email, then print some fake copies of the picture, and sell them all with copies of the email, could they not? 
