[mishco]

approx 30 x 30cm original on canvas
colour background not signed but pc cert
anyone got figures?
any help greatly appreciated

cheers

[lee3]

I know a signature is important to many but it never has been to me. As long as there is a cert that's what counts for the broader market. So in *my* book a signature or lack thereof neither adds/detracts value but I can appreciate that others don't feel the same. Another important consideration is whether the certificate reads "unique in its format" on the edition line. If it's numbered from an edition (as some of the bird canvases are - specifically the 5 from the Existencilism show) it should *in theory* trade at a discount to one that is noted as unique in its format. Given that the one you're looking at is on a colored canvas, I presume it's noted as unique and the addition of color to the composition probably helps the price too (from a sellers standpoint).

The year is also important and I'm guessing again that this is '03 or earlier. If it's in great shape (a lot of the works on colored canvases from that period were not primed and suffer from wrinkles/cracks in the paint though a restoration job can do wonders) , unique and '03 or earlier with those dimensions, my guess is that private sale is between 20 and 30k GBP. It could very well command more at auction but the seller (again imo) would be hard pressed to net more than the upper range noted above. Some range 'eh? If its editioned, in need of restoration or competed much later than '03 then some discount is probably in order. Good luck, would love to see a pic if you have one out of pure curiosity.

Edit: I should add that it's very difficult to play the guess the price game and I'm certainly just trying to be helpful and not short change anyone, as I said previously it was just a guess. The big houses have their London sales at the end of June this year and since they offered no Banksy's at the NY May sales, I presume they steered any would be consignors to those sales. Catalogs are usually available 3 weeks before the sales so you will probably have an idea of other works and estimate ranges in a week or two. Given the unrest with currencies and markets around the globe (and the activity in North America and the film with this artist of late) it makes it especially difficult to guess at that type of value at the moment.

[alexnh123]

" a lot of the works on colored canvases from that period were not primed and suffer from cracks in the paint though a restoration job can do wonders) "

curious to know how restorers go about doing that? Particularly as this refers to a process that takes place before the stencil/painting layer?

[grafik]

are you selling?

[lee3]

>>>curious to know how restorers go about doing that? <<

It's really interesting and I've seen pics of a few of them and had one done. In short and with lousy memory, they don't touch the front of the canvas but remove it from the frame and run weights over the back of the loose canvas to try and smooth out any wrinkles. Then they apply a hot honeycomb glue mixture to the reverse (the heat helps expand the canvas thereby smoothing out the wrinkles) and attach it to an aluminum frame. When they are finished with the work, hints of the wrinkles remain but nothing like before. It also feels as though it's painted on wood as opposed to canvas given the frame behind them. Most importantly, it prevents further expanding and contracting of the unprimed canvases in the future so that no more damage can occur. The whole process takes maybe 6 weeks and if someone is buying an OG (or owns one) with those symptoms, they can ask PC for the restorer as quite a few have gone through this process with jaw-dropping results. For whatever reason some of the colored canvases back then were not primed and yet most of the white ones were as I haven't heard of any white ones that needed to go through that process but could well be misinformed.

Further edit: It also just occurred to me that this isn't private sale but through retail. If the piece you are looking at is from a dealer, forget my estimate range above as they are almost certainly asking for more.

[mishco]

many thanks for the help lee, i'll let you know how i get on.
This isn't from an edition and is unique.

[nacional]

Lots of good advice, but not too sure about the signature. For re-sale (a bit horrible to think about re-sale before even purchasing...) value and taking into account the price, I would expect a tag, pc and a signature. Anything else I would be very wary of forking out for. As with prints, in the long run unsigned is almost worthless....
As for price range:
Canvas editions about 20-25k (sterling). To my surprise it didn't seem to make much difference if the edition was 5 or 15.
Unique ranges from 35K to anything really.
Was offered Bomb Huggers stencils on a scruffy patch of cardboard for 40K to fantastic rat canvases for 65K and all in between.
price difference between galleries also huge. Lots sell for third party's so have been offered the same piece for 25K from one place and 60K at another place.
In short there doesn't seem to be any trends at present except buy now whilst you can still afford it.....

[Harveyn]

I would say that on any original (for the purpose of this thread I would include stenciled edition canvases by Banksy) the signature is almost irrelevant.

If I am buying an original I would hardly ever ask if it was signed as many artists do not sign their originals. I could not even tell you if my Parla canvas has a signature. Solid provenance for originals is far more important IMO.

[lee3]

>>>Lots of good advice, but not too sure about the signature<<<

I'm coming at this from the point of view of originals. Blue chip artist's signatures on the front or reverse of the works carry no more or less of a premium at auction/market over similar works that are unsigned. And I've spent a fair amount of time looking into that fact. Once the artist/estate/foundation determines a work of art is authentic (in this particular case there is a PC cert), from my vantage point that takes precedence over a signature. Case in point, about half the Warhols in circulation are unsigned and the signed works carry no premium over the same works unsigned. What matters is that it's considered genuine by the entity in charge of determining authenticity.

>>>As with prints, in the long run unsigned is almost worthless....<<<

Then I've overspent considerably for a number of works in my collection including the artist in question. To be fair, I have sold an unsigned work and one potential buyer didn't like the fact that it was unsigned but the next person in line had no problem with that fact. I certainly have no problem with it given my research and I respectfully disagree with the notion that in the long run the unsigned works will be worthless.

[Deleted]

May 28, 2010 20:58:56 GMT 1 Harveyn said:

I would say that on any original (for the purpose of this thread I would include stenciled edition canvases by Banksy) the signature is almost irrelevant.

If I am buying an original I would hardly ever ask if it was signed as many artists do not sign their originals. I could not even tell you if my Parla canvas has a signature. Solid provenance for originals is far more important IMO.

Absolutely. Unless it's a Gavin Turk of course

[manty]

May 28, 2010 21:35:36 GMT 1 @martedanielsen said:

May 28, 2010 20:58:56 GMT 1 Harveyn said:

I would say that on any original (for the purpose of this thread I would include stenciled edition canvases by Banksy) the signature is almost irrelevant.

If I am buying an original I would hardly ever ask if it was signed as many artists do not sign their originals. I could not even tell you if my Parla canvas has a signature. Solid provenance for originals is far more important IMO.

Absolutely. Unless it's a Gavin Turk of course

Thats funny ;D

[nacional]

Am commenting just on Banksy. As an eg. I found the same piece carried a premium of about 30K more if signed. Not theory but recent experience. Look at Rat prints: about 1k unsigned but about 10k signed...

[lee3]

>>>I found the same piece carried a premium of about 30K more if signed.<<<

I'm going to guess you are either looking at different dealers with similar works or auction results from different time periods because that is absurd by most collectors definition.

>>>Look at Rat prints: about 1k unsigned but about 10k signed... <<<

Again, respectfully tried to keep this to originals. I'm well aware of the discrepancy in price on signed vs. unsigned prints but from my vantage point that has no bearing on the market for originals. We can agree to disagree- have a nice weekend.

[Harveyn]

May 28, 2010 22:34:11 GMT 1 lee3 said:

>>>I found the same piece carried a premium of about 30K more if signed.<<<

I'm going to guess you are either looking at different dealers with similar works or auction results from different time periods because that is absurd by most collectors definition.

>>>Look at Rat prints: about 1k unsigned but about 10k signed... <<<

Again, respectfully tried to keep this to originals. I'm well aware of the discrepancy in price on signed vs. unsigned prints but from my vantage point that has no bearing on the market for originals. We can agree to disagree- have a nice weekend.

Have to agree with Lee nacional but then its just chat on a friday night. If someone was looking for £30k more for an original editioned Banksy canvas of the same edition size one signed and one not then they will not sell the higher priced signed version.

[nacional]

No worries, I'm placing no value judgements on what I say, just relating recent experience from looking for a canvas...

[Coach]

May 28, 2010 20:58:56 GMT 1 Harveyn said:

I would say that on any original (for the purpose of this thread I would include stenciled edition canvases by Banksy) the signature is almost irrelevant.

If I am buying an original I would hardly ever ask if it was signed as many artists do not sign their originals. I could not even tell you if my Parla canvas has a signature. Solid provenance for originals is far more important IMO.

That has been my view with originals too.
Prints, different matter.

[cosmic]

lets see some photos of it please !!

[snausages]

Lee is totally correct on the signature thing with originals.

And when it comes to prints, if you want a Warhol Camoflauge print, none of them were signed to my knowledge, you'll probably pay about 10 maybe 15k USD. This is about double to triple what a signed Warhol "ladies and gentleman" or a "torsos" print sells for. It's all about image. But obviously a simultaneous edition of both signed and unsigned the signed will go for more. But I don't believe that signed rat prints are actually exchanging hands at £10k, though sellers might wish that were so.

[alexnh123]

thanks lee3.