[dynamixx]

Article is here:
www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601088&sid=a7k5jl05o0i0

Interesting in places, but negative focus towards Banksy specifically a little puzzling when nearly every artist has suffered over the past 18 months.

Quotes that grated:

“The days of 100 percent selling rates for Banksy are over,” from a Bonhams representative.

Well why don't you lower your estimates then?

Worst of all, from a Lyon & Turnbull representative:

“Banksy will come back. He’s the one member of the urban art movement who will last"

Just Banksy eh? What even is Urban Art anyway.

Article goes on to say
"Five Banksy sprayed-stenciled works, ranging in estimate from 7,000 pounds to 18,000 pounds, failed to sell at Lyon & Turnbull’s April 24 contemporary-art auction in London. "

Well no shit, they were Vermin pieces. This doesn't mean the Banksy market is collapsing.


It gets better:
“There’s no point flogging a dead horse" from same L&T representative.

Unclear if he means Vermin pieces there, but here's hoping eh?

[wizzy]

Typical bullsh*t. Have emailed them to say its all bollix. Bonhams "Representative" haha, maybe its the same Bonhams oik who is quite happy to put fake Design through his sales and catalogue it as real even when told its fake.

[bullet]

urbanartassociation.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=38125

[junta]

i think the day to day trade in prints must be affected by the sheer volume of knock-offs out there. I dont own any banksy's and I for one would be too afraid of getting burnt to buy one, and there's many more naive than me, who don't know their PC from their vermin & whatnot.
as for the higher end auction stuff, it's unfair to focus so much on banksy... on the other hand it's a nod to how much he embodies the... "urban art scene" *shudder*
maybe the man himself would think he doesn't belong in the world of high art anyway... who knows? I'm glad he is... awfull lot better than some of the s**t out there, comanding ridiculous prices because its been painted with some novel bodily fluid

[snausages]

What ridiculous sensationalism. Must have been a slow news day in the art world. Obviously prices have come down ...on everything. And while I find the sale of streetwork debatable I of course agree that work should fetch much smaller sums, hence the L&T fiasco. Those guys have no clue to the pulse of contemporary. Who knows why that guy is quoted here.

Another problem they fail to the mention is the spiraling auction fees of the last several years, couple that with economic troubles and answer solved. Some insightful reporting here.

And the flip side, that they don't mention is the derth of people willing to consign Banksy works right now. Things can't be that bad if people who own all those Banksy originals aren't willing to dump them on the market for low estimates.


And junta, I don't think you need to be all that worried about banksy knock offs, at least if you know what you're looking at and verify it with PC. If anything I think there;s a stronger risk of getting an empty tube from sheisters on the bay.

[alsbabar]

total bollocks imo and over dramatisation and sensationalism

Lets break down each auction houses quotes concerns.

Lyon and Turnbull and Ben Hanly - he failed to mention that the pieces he had in his last auction were all unauthenticated pieces - so thats an obvious reason

Dreweatts - without Mary McCarthy who is going to run their urban art sales - definitely not Stephan. Hence why they have moved their dates, while she is on maternity leave.

Bonhams - last auction they had 22 Banksy pieces out of 70, they overkilled it in their greed, plus the pieces that didnt sell werent very strong. Plus Bonhams really isnt considered a pedigree auction house, unlike Sotheby's or Christies.

If you look at the way both Christies and Sothebys now undertake their auctions with Banksy's, the maximum number of lots would be 3 per auction and they are generally much higher quality pieces then what goes through Bonhams or Dreweatts, hence why they sell for much higher prices.

[Deleted]

i don't understand why any news agency would mention vermin pieces - it's just tired journalism, do you're research dopes

[rosstierney]

"so far this year, 30 out of the 76 paintings and prints by banksy that have appeared at live auctions in the uk and elsewhere have failed to sell"

is 60% such a bad percentage? especially when you take into consideration the vermin pieces, unrealistic estimates/reserves & that little thing called the economy. i think not.

[jamesreeve5]

No need for everyone to get their panties in a twist (and no need to insult a dead artist). As snausages said, I think it's just sensationalism in a slow news day in the art market. Banksy had some of the fastest rising prices during the boom, so it's easy to use him as a measure of the current state of the market now. He's just a good barometer.

[wizzy]

Taking any kind of sales success / failiure reference from Banksy works offered at Lyon and Turnbull sales with Vermin COAs or Vermin provenance is not a good indication of the market regardless of whether its a slow news day or not, it is only a good indication of Banksy works offered with Vermin COAs.

[jamesreeve5]

yea, they were just using skewed statistics to support an over-exaggerated claim, no biggie. I'm sure Lee could find us several articles of a similar tone that have been written about Warhol's market over the past year as well.

[snausages]

Guess this balances out all the ridiculous news articles from the past 2 or 3 years hyping up the Banksy market but it is a poor perspective. And further, I'd bet the vast majority of unsold works they reference were prints, not originals. The L&T pieces were street pieces, and should have had a lower estimate because of that and the 'debatable' vermin authentication. On top of that, the auction occurred at probably the worst month ever for the auction market. NOt only did Banksy not sell at L&T almost nothing sold at L&T. Bonhams had an auction in that same time period with something like a 75% buy in rate as well and most auctions even at Christies were a disaster at that point in time.

[lee3]

>>>If you look at the way both Christies and Sothebys undertake their auctions with Banksy's, the maximum number of lots would be 3 per auction and they are generally much higher quality pieces then what goes through Bonhams or Dreweatts, hence why they sell for much higher prices.<<<

I agree wholeheartedly with your sentiment that the 2 big houses are the way to go for both buyers and sellers. That said, both houses have had day sales with more than 3 Banksy's each. Last July Sotheby's had one lot that contained 3 Banksy's plus a few additional lots. The same week Christie's offered up 5 Banksy's in their day sale. Christie's followed it up with 5 more in their October day sale following Sotheby's who even added a couple into their evening sale.

The days of being more selective with substantially fewer lots (for all artists) are a relatively new phenomenon (over the past decade) and a reaction to the dismal numbers that everyone posted last October/November when the credit crunch started to show its teeth.

[crazyarsemother]

Just wanted to say thanks to all the informative imputs here guys, I have enjoyed reading this thread.

Much appreciated.

[rosstierney]

Jul 20, 2009 20:08:48 GMT 1 @crazyarsemother said:

Just wanted to say thanks to all the informative imputs here guys, I have enjoyed reading this thread.

Much appreciated.

the cat's out the bag.... james baker is banksy!

[junta]

Jul 20, 2009 3:58:52 GMT 1 @snausages said:

What ridiculous sensationalism. Must have been a slow news day in the art world. Obviously prices have come down ...on everything. And while I find the sale of streetwork debatable I of course agree that work should fetch much smaller sums, hence the L&T fiasco. Those guys have no clue to the pulse of contemporary. Who knows why that guy is quoted here.

Another problem they fail to the mention is the spiraling auction fees of the last several years, couple that with economic troubles and answer solved. Some insightful reporting here.

And the flip side, that they don't mention is the derth of people willing to consign Banksy works right now. Things can't be that bad if people who own all those Banksy originals aren't willing to dump them on the market for low estimates.


And junta, I don't think you need to be all that worried about banksy knock offs, at least if you know what you're looking at and verify it with PC. If anything I think there;s a stronger risk of getting an empty tube from sheisters on the bay.

ha an empty tube ;D
and james (not james baker, other james) if "no need to insult a dead artist" is aimed at me considering the whole dash snow thing, thats not what i meant. i see now how it reads a bit insensitive, but i wasnt thinking of snow at the time, just some of the more ridiculous things ive heard about over the years. although im not particularly a fan of his work either, the little of it that ive seen, please dont mistake an opinion for an insult, after all i knew nothing about the guy till last week.

[jamesreeve5]

no worries junta... I really have no strong feelings about people not liking Dash, nor do I have strong feelings about people writing negative articles about the Banksy market. I have my tastes and people have their own (in fact it was a bit of a welcome relief to hear something negative about Dash, if only to offset the wave of positive comments and inquiries about purchasing his art now that he's dead). As the only owner of Dash Snow works on this forum (I believe), I can respect your differing opinion much more than those who have made an about face recently. You first comment came off as a bit of a jab, but your second was much more explanatory and honest, so definitely no hard feelings.

More than anything I'm surprised at the reaction this silly article. As snausages said, Banksy was one of the hottest topics during the art boom, so it only seems fair that they single him out a bit during the bust as well. And as Ross said, a 60% selling rate is nothing to be ashamed of. Anyone that knows the tiniest bit about the art market knows that.

[junta]

great, i must say im pleasantly suprised by the level headedness of members on this forum when it comes to differences of opinion, its much apreciated . (god knows most places on the internet you cant say the sky is blue without someone disagreeing and proclaiming you the inbred son of a babylonian wh***!)

[wizzy]

I have spoken with Scott the Author of the article and he has told me he is aware of the authentication problems with the Banksy works at Lyon & Turnbull sales and he has written about these in the past, he also added that he should have pointed out in this article that the Vermin authentication issues / problems are an ongoing concern and apologises for not doing so this time but will do so in the future.