[BK83]

Not sure if this has been discussed anywhere else on the forum but, why is that Shepard Fairey has not served any real jail time for all the bombing he's done here and abroad? I mean, I know he has been arrested multiple times (last I heard was 13 or so) but I find it strange that the police know who he is, know his work, and know that he confesses to his work by standing next to it talking about how and when he put it up and yet nothing happens to him?

I wonder if one day when someone blurts out who Banksy is, whether mistakingly or purpsefully, whether he really will be fined mass amounts of money and/or be facing jail time?

recently here in NYC a renowned (sort of) graffiti artist Kiko was arrested on 28 counts of vandalism - graffiti art, and is facing 6 months in prison and $25,000 in fines.

Is it about being caught in the act, and then what you admit to? or is it about whatever the police feel they can unequivocally prove?

Not that I would want Shep or Banksy to ever be indicted on any charges at all -- EVER! or any other street artist for that matter. it would be a serious loss to the street art world and art world, but I just find it strange that, especially in the case of Fairey, the police know who he is, where he works and even have a face to the name! I mean, technically they could even get Banksy if they wanted to -- it wouldnt be hard to track down the companies he has worked with with warrants and subpeonas demanding his identity. Do you think the police just don't care anymore because Banksy and Shep are now legitimate figures in the art world?

thoughts?......

J

[Ågent ßacardi]

I've always wondered the same thing myself. How does Shepard stay out of trouble??

[taktheride]

kind of off topic, but did you see the cover of the Daily News Today jaypaav? It was about tagging trains by europeans:
www.nydailynews.com/front/story/479076p-403027c.html

I think part of reason Shepard Fairy doesn't get busted cause what he does is more readily considered art, that just writing foul language or your name on whatever you are tagging/bombing/whatever. Same thing goes for Banksy too.

"Map" was recently busted here in NYC and they have a serious problem with him cause he just etches his name into train windows.
And from the looks of this story, from only the most reputable of sources, it looks like he is kind of a dumbass.
www.gothamist.com/archives/2006/11/28/cops_graffiti_v.php

[KaL976]

They have to catch you in the act, find someone to press charges & then prove it...

[snorky]

""Map" was recently busted here in NYC and they have a serious problem with him cause he just etches his name into train windows."

Painting is one thing, etching is another.

Etching on public Transport windows has safety issues for every user . MAP is a tw@t.

[danvnuk]

Bit of a strange one this -

I commute into London everyday from just outside and get the tube to the office - and this guys Tag 'TOX05' is everywhere.....and I mean everywhere - scrawled about every 5 metres of the track, the Carriages.... on pretty much anything you could possibly fit the guys name onto.....its certainly not in the same mold as Banksy and IMO looks rubbish, it doesn't enhance anything and just makes everything look run down.....

I can't say I was hugely upset when the guy was arrested for it....

So where is the line between art and vandalism?

Am I a being a hypocrite for appreciating Banksys work and cheering when 'Tox' got arrested?

More info on Tox...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tox

[rolyateel]

danvnuk said:

Bit of a strange one this -

I commute into London everyday from just outside and get the tube to the office - and this guys Tag 'TOX05' is everywhere.....and I mean everywhere - scrawled about every 5 metres of the track, the Carriages.... on pretty much anything you could possibly fit the guys name onto.....its certainly not in the same mold as Banksy and IMO looks rubbish, it doesn't enhance anything and just makes everything look run down.....

I can't say I was hugely upset when the guy was arrested for it....

So where is the line between art and vandalism?

Am I a being a hypocrite for appreciating Banksys work and cheering when 'Tox' got arrested?

More info on Tox...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tox

banksy is an artist with a message
from the look of tox's "work" i'd say he is neither an artist, nor does he have a message...in fact he sounds like a complete t**t

[saffa]

IMO, it's people like TOX that give grafitti a bad name. Often when I tell friends or family that the banksy in my lounge is by a famous 'grafitti' artist, it's tags like TOX's that come to their minds. I personally hate seeing some idiots name sprayed across any possible wall/train/windows etc. That is NOT art.

I do however agree with the earlier post - where do you draw the line?

(don't get me started on the spanners that scratch their names on tube/bus windows!)

[KaL976]

LMFAO & you say you like graffiti?!?

TOX is a star, there's one of his tags in a crude oil if you pay attention

[saffa]

well i haven't seen it and I certainly don't like his name (tag) written all over the show. it looks crap IMO! I'd be interested in seeing his better stuff.

am I a grafitti snob?

[Curley]

kal976 said:

TOX is a star, there's one of his tags in a crude oil if you pay attention

Not sure that makes him a star, i think its banksy is actually being very clever and is using that tag in crude oils as a social commentary on the state of Britains streets rather than giving him due respect.

That tag is all over where i live, its crap all it says "i was here"

[Curley]

curley said:

kal976 said:

TOX is a star, there's one of his tags in a crude oil if you pay attention

That tag is all over where i live, its crap all it says "i was here"

and before you say thats what all tags are supposed to do i realise that.
People like Shep, banksy and others have a message and its not mindless vandalism.

[danvnuk]

kal976 said:

LMFAO & you say you like graffiti?!?

TOX is a star, there's one of his tags in a crude oil if you pay attention

Everyones entitled to their opinion.

I like Graffiti with a political message or some humour in it, or just because the image is pleasing to the eye-

Some guy plastering his name over everything isn't in the same league is it?

It shows no real talent, unless being able to repetively write your name in the same way, on every available surface

again and....
again and....
again and.....
again.....

without going mad from sheer boredom or the fumes from the marker pen is a talent.

Which Crude Oils is it in? I know Ive seen it - but for the life of me - I cant find it again.

[HowAboutNo]

danvnuk said:

Bit of a strange one this -

I commute into London everyday from just outside and get the tube to the office - and this guys Tag 'TOX05' is everywhere.....and I mean everywhere - scrawled about every 5 metres of the track, the Carriages.... on pretty much anything you could possibly fit the guys name onto.....its certainly not in the same mold as Banksy and IMO looks rubbish, it doesn't enhance anything and just makes everything look run down.....

I can't say I was hugely upset when the guy was arrested for it....

So where is the line between art and vandalism?

Am I a being a hypocrite for appreciating Banksys work and cheering when 'Tox' got arrested?

More info on Tox...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tox

Carry on that train line and its like a TOX timeline....goes back to "TOX 00" being the oldest I have seen anyway. Complete s h i t e, but fair play to the fella for effort.

[KaL976]

I didn't mean he's a star because he's in a banksy painting.
I meant he's in a banksy painting because he's a star.

[Curley]

kal976 said:

I didn't mean he's a star because he's in a banksy painting.
I meant he's in a banksy painting because he's a star.

I got that and my theory as to why he was included in the picture was that it was social comment on todays society and his graff was everywhere (even in a crude oil).

However he might be his best mate what do i know

[burn111]

tox is a cock lol

[pezlow]

Some of the tox tags are much more fancy than just the white spraypainted name. I've seen a few on the thameslink and at platform 8 at Vauxhall that are much more detailed and artistic.

[tadghostal]

It doesn't take a genius to know that some graffiti is art, while the vast majority of graffiti is simply vandalism. Tagging is an incredibly juvenile and counterproductive past-time with a lot of these clowns, and while they revel in their "rebelliousness" the rest of us puke because they make nice neighborhoods look like absolute s**t-holes. Most of us like art. And we can appreciate the theory behind street art--the problem is, just like every other form of art, most of the practitioners are simply void of talent.

While it is easy to avoid the work of a crap dj, crap actor, idiotic musician, etc.--you simply can't escape the garbage street "artist." That jackass is, unfortunately for the rest of us, able to inflict their shite on the world at large. And to tell you the truth, I'd rather look at a plain wall than some dumbshit's name written over and over. Who gives a fuck if he had to avoid getting caught to put it up there? The ACT of graffiti is only admirable when the object of the act (i.e., the art itself) is also admirable.

That TOX guy is exactly what is WRONG with graffiti.

There, I just drew the line. Now we all know where it is.

[BK83]

Yeh fair enough -- some good points made that I can accept, although at the same time some of the lettering and classic graffiti script from back in the day (and that some artists are trying to bring back) is actually really amazing -- so now where is the line?

J

[sausageboonwee]

Can you imagine going through school being called Shepard Fairey

[tadghostal]

jaypaav said:

Yeh fair enough -- some good points made that I can accept, although at the same time some of the lettering and classic graffiti script from back in the day (and that some artists are trying to bring back) is actually really amazing -- so now where is the line?

J

tadghostal said:

The ACT of graffiti is only admirable when the OBJECT of the act (i.e., the art itself) is also admirable.

By "object" i mean whatever the result of their act. I'd love to see anything admirable by TOX---please, if anybody has an example they think should qualify TOX as an actual artist, do share. I get sick of hearing about graffiti 'artists' who are famous for nothing more than being prolific dipshits.

And I've absolutely seen tags that would qualify--particularly some of the great old school tags you're referring to.

Here's my point: if you're going to scream for everybody's attention, say something interesting once you've got it. Saying "My Name Bongo!" with your permanent marker hardly qualifies.

[pezlow]

Tad - I will take a photo next time I see one. Pretty sure there is a good one on Vauxhall station but I haven't been there for a while so it may have been buffed.

[Tyler Durden]

Please please please don't forget that Banksy got caught whilst trying to do a tag, and as a result turned to his stencil art that we all know and love to deal with the time constraints.

Also, please don't think that the art of graffiti lettering is dead. It's still one of my main passions and I hope a couple of these beauts below will show you why:








I do agree that some are thrown up without care or attention, but shouldn't detract for diamonds you find amongst the rough.

[tadghostal]

Yeah. That's the good stuff. Nice share with those pics, btw.

[dotdot]

TOX ? that ... tag was pointed out to me last weekend... inside "the leonard street gallery"....
when i visited Eleven...
tox1 .... all the way through to tox07.
I think he/she may visit to get inspiration - perhaps not

[dundun]

Tagging is an essential part of modern graffiti history. Graf was/is all about "getting up." Bottom line. Modern street graf started as people plastering their name up on the wall all over the city. Bansky and Co. are doing the same thing, but they just happen to have a message that's deeper than Tox's.

Tox gets mad respect cuz he's doing his thing. Is it pretty? NO!, but he's very prolific in getting his name around. Proof is in the pudding, we're having a discussion about a tagger on the internet. He's doing the same thing as every other graffiti artist out there. Putting his mark on a piece of property that isn't his.

Both movements represent the same fundamentals and to dismiss Tox's work cuz it's ugly, is very ignorant. It's like saying two pieces of gold aren't worth as much as the other, because one is polished and the other is still in ore form. Doesn't make sense.

[ABC]

Talking of shep this is an old one

[tadghostal]

dundun said:

Tagging is an essential part of modern graffiti history. Graf was/is all about "getting up." Bottom line. Modern street graf started as people plastering their name up on the wall all over the city. Bansky and Co. are doing the same thing, but they just happen to have a message that's deeper than Tox's.

Tox gets mad respect cuz he's doing his thing. Is it pretty? NO!, but he's very prolific in getting his name around. Proof is in the pudding, we're having a discussion about a tagger on the internet. He's doing the same thing as every other graffiti artist out there. Putting his mark on a piece of property that isn't his.

Both movements represent the same fundamentals and to dismiss Tox's work cuz it's ugly, is very ignorant. It's like saying two pieces of gold aren't worth as much as the other, because one is polished and the other is still in ore form. Doesn't make sense.

Essentially, you are claiming that the fundamental value of graffiti is the act of "putting a mark on a piece of property that isn't his[hers]." Then you imply that by extension of that claim, that any and all graffiti--including meaningless 'tags'--is essentially the same. So, the distinction between TOX and Banksy or Shep is really nothing more than aesthetics--a matter of taste.

We're talking about TOX because he provides the perfect counter-example to Shep or Banksy. Imagine a discussion of 'spiritual leaders' and evaluating each individual on how devoted their followers were. In that type of scenario, Charles Manson might be "THE MAN!" because his followers were willing to murder on command. But does that really make Charles Manson a good spiritual leader?

We're not talking about TOX because "getting up" or "staying up" has any value whatsoever (in fact, it seems like the main problem with graffiti, if anything). It is simply because he is a convenient example of the vast majority of graffiti; petty vandalism (i.e., ruining something that isn't yours, and to no purpose--this is truly wasteful and stupid). Unfortunately, most graffiti--particularly tags--is nothing more than the expression of a frustrated megalomaniacs. And really, who gives a s**t?! Only other megalomaniacs who engage in the same inane antics.

I think you were onto something with your metaphor of the gold. When mining or panning for gold, there is a lot of worthless dirt that you have to get through before you find anything of value. Rarely do you actually find gold; often you find nothing worth keeping at all. But one in ten thousand times you will strike it rich. And in this metaphor, Banksy and Shep are exactly those strikes.

I hear what you're saying, and think the logic behind those arguments are severely flawed.

[BK83]

Great Points TadG, but the problem when discussing art is that it is entirely subjective and everything, from the artists point of view, is an aesthetic and therefore cannot be distinguished as better or worse than the next persons art, it can only be evaluated on the premise of what YOU as an art observer like or dislike.

For you Tox is a petty vandal who is by no means in the league of Shep and Banksy, but I'm sure if you asked Tox for his thoughts on what he does he would boldy state that he is working within an aesthetic that aims to achieve old-school graffiti nostalgia by means of "getting up" as much as he can in every conceivable place that he can -- to many graff writers he is a hero, for you not so much.

The problem here is that noone can make their distinction more or less valid than anyone else's.

But Fuck all that subjective art shit! Tox isn't even fucking close to Banksy! I'm with you on this one Tadg.


J