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Bloomsbury Auctions π¬π§, by finsburyparkranger on Oct 14, 2007 21:42:57 GMT 1, The headlines are equally often about the money, and it's apparent that people haven't gotten my point.
Your points seem to be two fold 1) the scene is currupted by money and thats what people will remember in the future 2) There is going to be a big crash. Regarding your first point yes you're right, people can get corrupted by money, nothing to do with the good spirited nature of the 'scene' though, regarding your second point I think the big crash has already happened, who knows what the future holds but what the other guys are essentially saying is that continually discussing money is what corrupts the 'scene' so we should try to do so less if we can help it.
The headlines are equally often about the money, and it's apparent that people haven't gotten my point. Your points seem to be two fold 1) the scene is currupted by money and thats what people will remember in the future 2) There is going to be a big crash. Regarding your first point yes you're right, people can get corrupted by money, nothing to do with the good spirited nature of the 'scene' though, regarding your second point I think the big crash has already happened, who knows what the future holds but what the other guys are essentially saying is that continually discussing money is what corrupts the 'scene' so we should try to do so less if we can help it. |
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RBK
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September 2006
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Bloomsbury Auctions π¬π§, by RBK on Oct 14, 2007 23:53:47 GMT 1, I think it's all ruining this scene and there is going to be a stigma forever about it being overrun with greed and hysteria. I bet the price hysteria is talked about as much as the art in the history books. This will have an effect on many levels.
I can assure you 'price hysteria' won't even be mentioned in the history books. If you think crazy/irrational prices and greed are new concepts to the contemporary art market - you my friend should read some art history books.
I think it's all ruining this scene and there is going to be a stigma forever about it being overrun with greed and hysteria. I bet the price hysteria is talked about as much as the art in the history books. This will have an effect on many levels. I can assure you 'price hysteria' won't even be mentioned in the history books. If you think crazy/irrational prices and greed are new concepts to the contemporary art market - you my friend should read some art history books. |
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RBK
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September 2006
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Bloomsbury Auctions π¬π§, by RBK on Oct 14, 2007 23:56:48 GMT 1, You all RECOGNIZE that the prices "might" go down. But I've never heard anyone talk about further ramifications of it all...
Ramifications is that the 'value' of some of the art we own will go down. A lot of collectors here don't care - because it's hanging on our walls for a reason.
Plus, it will make my stock portfolio returns look better (as a realistic profit gauge)!
You all RECOGNIZE that the prices "might" go down. But I've never heard anyone talk about further ramifications of it all... Ramifications is that the 'value' of some of the art we own will go down. A lot of collectors here don't care - because it's hanging on our walls for a reason. Plus, it will make my stock portfolio returns look better (as a realistic profit gauge)! |
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RBK
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September 2006
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Bloomsbury Auctions π¬π§, by RBK on Oct 15, 2007 0:27:52 GMT 1, I never said I was an optimist.  And you're close but you're missing the point which I've only really alluded to I guess. I'm not just ranting about the "expensive prints" and the greed and corruption that has caused it. (Even people in POW have now been exposed as corrupt although they are supposed to be about bringing afforable art to the masses) I think it's all ruining this scene and there is going to be a stigma forever about this scene associated with the greed and hysteria and not the art. This is not a good thing in my opinon and will have an effect on many levels. Probelm with that theory is this kind of myopic view of the scene that a lot of people seem to have developed. Probably due to just being interested in the print side of things or the pr/media machine, but honestly.. it's sooo much bigger than this lil old forum, laz, banksy, auctions whoever.. it exists on a truly phenomenal scale.. from Europe to Australia to the US, the Middle East, Africa, China... It's a global movement that's caught the imagination of so many people.. forget this little POW/LAZ/Elms nonesense.. they're businesses..set up primarily to make a profit for the owners and shareholders via a love of subversive art. All well and good..they do their bit.. but their influence is minimal...the blip in the late 80's when the graffiti/gallery cross over imploded.. it didn't have an effect on Graffiti.. people learned and moved on, hence Obey, Banksy etc... I've said it before.. but it's here to stay and I can only see it developing better and more interesting strategies to engage us with. Rather than the doom and gloom.. I can only really see positive things happening for street art and artists in the future. There's some amazing stuff out there.
As evidenced by the incredibly put together NuArt '07!
Top artists rise to the top; and mediocre ones fade away (this is the case with any genre of art).
I agree there is a ton of cr@p out there currently - but some people are creating ridiculous work (both on the street and for the gallery).
I never said I was an optimist. And you're close but you're missing the point which I've only really alluded to I guess. I'm not just ranting about the "expensive prints" and the greed and corruption that has caused it. (Even people in POW have now been exposed as corrupt although they are supposed to be about bringing afforable art to the masses) I think it's all ruining this scene and there is going to be a stigma forever about this scene associated with the greed and hysteria and not the art. This is not a good thing in my opinon and will have an effect on many levels. Probelm with that theory is this kind of myopic view of the scene that a lot of people seem to have developed. Probably due to just being interested in the print side of things or the pr/media machine, but honestly.. it's sooo much bigger than this lil old forum, laz, banksy, auctions whoever.. it exists on a truly phenomenal scale.. from Europe to Australia to the US, the Middle East, Africa, China... It's a global movement that's caught the imagination of so many people.. forget this little POW/LAZ/Elms nonesense.. they're businesses..set up primarily to make a profit for the owners and shareholders via a love of subversive art. All well and good..they do their bit.. but their influence is minimal...the blip in the late 80's when the graffiti/gallery cross over imploded.. it didn't have an effect on Graffiti.. people learned and moved on, hence Obey, Banksy etc... I've said it before.. but it's here to stay and I can only see it developing better and more interesting strategies to engage us with. Rather than the doom and gloom.. I can only really see positive things happening for street art and artists in the future. There's some amazing stuff out there. As evidenced by the incredibly put together NuArt '07! Top artists rise to the top; and mediocre ones fade away (this is the case with any genre of art). I agree there is a ton of cr@p out there currently - but some people are creating ridiculous work (both on the street and for the gallery). |
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endtimes
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September 2007
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Bloomsbury Auctions π¬π§, by endtimes on Oct 15, 2007 1:43:21 GMT 1, fasteddie: The people and advice that many people on these forums is to go to the auction houses and you'll make tons of money. And it's true, prices at auction houses ususally are much higher than those in the secondary market. So the fact that any prints sold for under ebay prices should be telling. And the most recent ebay prices by the way are well under record ebay prices. If you compared Bloomsbury to the record highs on ebay they would almost all be lower.
And the other thing is that the auction sellers had to pay at least a 10% fee, plus probably a photography fee, plus insurance plus trasportation fee. So the money they took home is at least 10% below the hammer prices they listed. And if you think the crash already happened. I think a lot of people are stll in for a rude awakening. I personally think it's just the beginning but hey...
And I still just find it odd that no complaints when people talk this stuff up but mention any downside and you're the devil?
fasteddie: The people and advice that many people on these forums is to go to the auction houses and you'll make tons of money. And it's true, prices at auction houses ususally are much higher than those in the secondary market. So the fact that any prints sold for under ebay prices should be telling. And the most recent ebay prices by the way are well under record ebay prices. If you compared Bloomsbury to the record highs on ebay they would almost all be lower.
And the other thing is that the auction sellers had to pay at least a 10% fee, plus probably a photography fee, plus insurance plus trasportation fee. So the money they took home is at least 10% below the hammer prices they listed. And if you think the crash already happened. I think a lot of people are stll in for a rude awakening. I personally think it's just the beginning but hey...
And I still just find it odd that no complaints when people talk this stuff up but mention any downside and you're the devil?
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endtimes
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Bloomsbury Auctions π¬π§, by endtimes on Oct 15, 2007 1:50:55 GMT 1,
Yeah, I'll get right on that. Thanks so much for the advice.
It's hardly a new concept but the amount and way that Banksy went from zero to 60 was completely unprecedented. If you don't think that'll be a significant part of his history, well...
Yeah, I'll get right on that. Thanks so much for the advice.
It's hardly a new concept but the amount and way that Banksy went from zero to 60 was completely unprecedented. If you don't think that'll be a significant part of his history, well...
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Bloomsbury Auctions π¬π§, by mose on Oct 15, 2007 3:06:33 GMT 1, It's hardly a new concept but the amount and way that Banksy went from zero to 60 was completely unprecedented.
no, it really wasn't. Basquiat, using a popular example, went much faster........
It's hardly a new concept but the amount and way that Banksy went from zero to 60 was completely unprecedented. no, it really wasn't. Basquiat, using a popular example, went much faster........ |
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stuey09
New Member
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August 2008
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Bloomsbury Auctions π¬π§, by stuey09 on Oct 16, 2007 17:19:18 GMT 1, Endtimes, I've just gone back over your post history. It seems that you are purely concerned about 'the market' Mate, I would guess that you do care, even love some of the art that is discussed, so giving you the benefit of the doubt, why don't you discuss what it is that you like about the work beyond financial speculation. The monetary bit gets a bit boring.
Endtimes, I've just gone back over your post history. It seems that you are purely concerned about 'the market' Mate, I would guess that you do care, even love some of the art that is discussed, so giving you the benefit of the doubt, why don't you discuss what it is that you like about the work beyond financial speculation. The monetary bit gets a bit boring.
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Bloomsbury Auctions π¬π§, by headphonesex on Oct 16, 2007 17:23:49 GMT 1, Endtimes, I've just gone back over your post history.
I feel for you. It's hard enough reading them one at a time.
Endtimes, I've just gone back over your post history. I feel for you. It's hard enough reading them one at a time. |
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Bloomsbury Auctions π¬π§, by slowmo on Oct 16, 2007 17:31:22 GMT 1, I find it surprising that auction houses are interested in selling the un-signed editions. Is this not in itself pretty unprecedented? I have no idea as I don't really see any art auctions other than things like when Pollock smashed the record and things like sunflowers etc.
I find it surprising that auction houses are interested in selling the un-signed editions. Is this not in itself pretty unprecedented? I have no idea as I don't really see any art auctions other than things like when Pollock smashed the record and things like sunflowers etc.
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endtimes
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Bloomsbury Auctions π¬π§, by endtimes on Oct 16, 2007 18:51:54 GMT 1,
Basquiat died broke, Basquiat and Warhold had shows where practically nothing sold. Could you even fathom a Banksy show where stuff didn't sell?
Basquiat died broke, Basquiat and Warhold had shows where practically nothing sold. Could you even fathom a Banksy show where stuff didn't sell?
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endtimes
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Bloomsbury Auctions π¬π§, by endtimes on Oct 16, 2007 18:53:47 GMT 1,
Get a life, seriously.
Get a life, seriously.
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endtimes
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Bloomsbury Auctions π¬π§, by endtimes on Oct 16, 2007 18:57:42 GMT 1, Sky is falling? It's funny that you guys keep putting your own inflection on my words. I think a market crash would be a good thing.
Sky is falling? It's funny that you guys keep putting your own inflection on my words. I think a market crash would be a good thing.
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stuey09
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Bloomsbury Auctions π¬π§, by stuey09 on Oct 16, 2007 18:57:58 GMT 1,
Don't just cherry pick one quote endtimes. I asked you if you were interested in art beyond the finance. Therefore I looked back to see if you were and I have seen nothing to suggest that you see this as anything other than a financial market. Would love you to prove me wrong.
Don't just cherry pick one quote endtimes. I asked you if you were interested in art beyond the finance. Therefore I looked back to see if you were and I have seen nothing to suggest that you see this as anything other than a financial market. Would love you to prove me wrong. |
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endtimes
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Bloomsbury Auctions π¬π§, by endtimes on Oct 16, 2007 19:00:42 GMT 1, First of all even IF an only IF all I cared about was the finance that's my prerogative. Although it's definitely not. β Obviously you are looking at the posts of mine that you want to look at to reinforce your theory. And the last thing I'm about to do is get in some stupid debate with some stranger on a freaking internet forum to "prove" my interest in art. Grow up.
First of all even IF an only IF all I cared about was the finance that's my prerogative. Although it's definitely not. β Obviously you are looking at the posts of mine that you want to look at to reinforce your theory. And the last thing I'm about to do is get in some stupid debate with some stranger on a freaking internet forum to "prove" my interest in art. Grow up.
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stuey09
New Member
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August 2008
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Bloomsbury Auctions π¬π§, by stuey09 on Oct 16, 2007 19:05:02 GMT 1, There's no debate. I only deal with facts and the facts are you do not discuss the merits of art or the artists beyond financial worth. Fact.
There's no debate. I only deal with facts and the facts are you do not discuss the merits of art or the artists beyond financial worth. Fact.
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endtimes
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Bloomsbury Auctions π¬π§, by endtimes on Oct 16, 2007 19:07:37 GMT 1, That's great when you can make up "facts" stuey. Again, get a life, you're not going to pull me into your petty argument.
That's great when you can make up "facts" stuey. Again, get a life, you're not going to pull me into your petty argument.
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stuey09
New Member
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August 2008
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Bloomsbury Auctions π¬π§, by stuey09 on Oct 16, 2007 19:08:33 GMT 1, I'll pm you as you seem to have resorted to insults.
I'll pm you as you seem to have resorted to insults.
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endtimes
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September 2007
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Bloomsbury Auctions π¬π§, by endtimes on Oct 16, 2007 19:13:23 GMT 1, The PM function doesn't exist so you can send incendiary and threatening messages.
Are you threatening me? You don't argue? So what do you do? You want to fight? Fact of the matter is that not every one of my posts have been about the financial side. And even if it has been who are you to tell me what I can or can't talk about? And you are a moderator here? And this is the kind of treatment you give people?
The PM function doesn't exist so you can send incendiary and threatening messages.
Are you threatening me? You don't argue? So what do you do? You want to fight? Fact of the matter is that not every one of my posts have been about the financial side. And even if it has been who are you to tell me what I can or can't talk about? And you are a moderator here? And this is the kind of treatment you give people?
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stuey09
New Member
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August 2008
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Bloomsbury Auctions π¬π§, by stuey09 on Oct 16, 2007 19:16:36 GMT 1, It's in the pm. Read it.
It's in the pm. Read it.
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Bloomsbury Auctions π¬π§, by headphonesex on Oct 16, 2007 19:17:54 GMT 1, Sky is falling? It's funny that you guys keep putting your own inflection on my words. I think a market crash would be a good thing.
Personally, you're quite welcome to your opinions, whatever they might be. What annoyed me is the fact you feel you have to repeat it 35 times. I get the message! You think the market is crashing. Can we stop talking about it now???
Sky is falling? It's funny that you guys keep putting your own inflection on my words. I think a market crash would be a good thing. Personally, you're quite welcome to your opinions, whatever they might be. What annoyed me is the fact you feel you have to repeat it 35 times. I get the message! You think the market is crashing. Can we stop talking about it now??? |
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endtimes
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September 2007
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Bloomsbury Auctions π¬π§, by endtimes on Oct 16, 2007 19:34:34 GMT 1, I'm sorry if you don't like my opinion and don't want to hear it. abdou...
The funny thing is that this thread was already at the bottom of the board and most definitely would have disappeared into oblivion except that several people had to leave antagonizing posts on this thread about me. I would have easily let this go if it weren't for that. And at least I don't go around calling people a "fyu&*&ing ponce" and then threatening them.
as Stuey, yes, it seems very much is threatening me...
Don't let that moderator badge get to your head Stuey. I assure you, myself, I could care less about fighting someone over an argument on an internet forum. But seriously, in the future grow up, this is such a stupid thing to get so riled up over that your willing to risk life or limb.
I'm sorry if you don't like my opinion and don't want to hear it. abdou...
The funny thing is that this thread was already at the bottom of the board and most definitely would have disappeared into oblivion except that several people had to leave antagonizing posts on this thread about me. I would have easily let this go if it weren't for that. And at least I don't go around calling people a "fyu&*&ing ponce" and then threatening them.
as Stuey, yes, it seems very much is threatening me...
Don't let that moderator badge get to your head Stuey. I assure you, myself, I could care less about fighting someone over an argument on an internet forum. But seriously, in the future grow up, this is such a stupid thing to get so riled up over that your willing to risk life or limb.
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stuey09
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Bloomsbury Auctions π¬π§, by stuey09 on Oct 16, 2007 19:38:53 GMT 1, Airing pms isn't good mate. It's bad form.
Airing pms isn't good mate. It's bad form.
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endtimes
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Bloomsbury Auctions π¬π§, by endtimes on Oct 16, 2007 19:42:48 GMT 1, Don't try and take the high road now Stuey. Please don't hide behind PMs. The PM function doesn't exist so that people can hurl threats, curses and insults at each other. Bad form is threatening someone on a public internet forum.
Don't try and take the high road now Stuey. Please don't hide behind PMs. The PM function doesn't exist so that people can hurl threats, curses and insults at each other. Bad form is threatening someone on a public internet forum.
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Bloomsbury Auctions π¬π§, by numusic on Oct 16, 2007 19:46:32 GMT 1, Don't try and take the high road now Stuey. Please don't hide behind PMs. The PM function doesn't exist so that people can hurl threats, curses and insults at each other. Bad form is threatening someone on a public internet forum.
PM's are there so you can take things OFF the public board... things that the majority find boring and that should be resolved privately. So maybe keep it to PM's guys.
Don't try and take the high road now Stuey. Please don't hide behind PMs. The PM function doesn't exist so that people can hurl threats, curses and insults at each other. Bad form is threatening someone on a public internet forum. PM's are there so you can take things OFF the public board... things that the majority find boring and that should be resolved privately. So maybe keep it to PM's guys. |
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endtimes
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September 2007
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Bloomsbury Auctions π¬π§, by endtimes on Oct 16, 2007 20:02:35 GMT 1, I'll agree with that until they get to the point where someone threatens you. Why are they afraid to show their true face to everyone? And a "moderator" no less.
Amazing. Keep negging me people! ;D Maybe if I call people ponces and threaten to beat them up then my respect will go to triple digits. Freaking amazing.
I'll agree with that until they get to the point where someone threatens you. Why are they afraid to show their true face to everyone? And a "moderator" no less.
Amazing. Keep negging me people! ;D Maybe if I call people ponces and threaten to beat them up then my respect will go to triple digits. Freaking amazing.
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Montubu7
Junior Member
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November 2006
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Bloomsbury Auctions π¬π§, by Montubu7 on Oct 16, 2007 20:05:39 GMT 1, F**k me its all kicking off on here!
F**k me its all kicking off on here! |
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endtimes
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September 2007
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Bloomsbury Auctions π¬π§, by endtimes on Oct 16, 2007 20:10:39 GMT 1,
This is good stuff right T!
As much as people seem to hate me they can't get enough either ;D ;D ;D
Hey, I promise, I won't mention the word "crash" again. But f**k this! Don't send me freaking threats and derogatory insults over PMs and not expect me to call you out on it.
This is good stuff right T! As much as people seem to hate me they can't get enough either ;D ;D ;D Hey, I promise, I won't mention the word "crash" again. But f**k this! Don't send me freaking threats and derogatory insults over PMs and not expect me to call you out on it. |
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Bloomsbury Auctions π¬π§, by numusic on Oct 16, 2007 20:12:52 GMT 1, I'll agree with that until they get to the point where someone threatens you. Why are they afraid to show their true face to everyone? And a "moderator" no less. Amazing. Keep negging me people! ;D Maybe if I call people ponces and threaten to beat them up then my respect will go to triple digits. Freaking amazing.
Stuey did try and turn things around dude, he asked you politely to contribute something about art.. i took it that he was moderating quite well and was inviting you to contribute to a debate about art.. i.e, what are you into ? presumably you like Banksy's work.. anyone else ?
I'll agree with that until they get to the point where someone threatens you. Why are they afraid to show their true face to everyone? And a "moderator" no less. Amazing. Keep negging me people! ;D Maybe if I call people ponces and threaten to beat them up then my respect will go to triple digits. Freaking amazing. Stuey did try and turn things around dude, he asked you politely to contribute something about art.. i took it that he was moderating quite well and was inviting you to contribute to a debate about art.. i.e, what are you into ? presumably you like Banksy's work.. anyone else ? |
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endtimes
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September 2007
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Bloomsbury Auctions π¬π§, by endtimes on Oct 16, 2007 20:17:36 GMT 1, Are you kidding me? His post was unprovoked and personal. And like I need to be baby sat by the "moderator" about what I'm allowed to talk about? And excuse me for not being pulled into a childish debate about who has better contributions about art. I don't play that.
And anyway if you'll look through my posts like Stuey supposedly did you'd notice I have mentioned a few other people if you really do care. 
Are you kidding me? His post was unprovoked and personal. And like I need to be baby sat by the "moderator" about what I'm allowed to talk about? And excuse me for not being pulled into a childish debate about who has better contributions about art. I don't play that. And anyway if you'll look through my posts like Stuey supposedly did you'd notice I have mentioned a few other people if you really do care. |
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