[robertlondon]

From the BBC website...
Certificates of Authenticity for Banksy Street Pieces

Very sad imo

'Official' tag for Banksy works

'Gangsta Rat' is expected to fetch between £25,000 and £35,000
Works by graffiti artist Banksy are to go under the hammer accompanied for the first time by a certificate of authenticity.

Edinburgh-based auctioneers Lyon & Turnbull will sell five "street pieces" at their forthcoming sale in London.

A board has been set up to provide an independent authentication service dedicated to these early works.

The move was driven by a contemporary art market concerned that fakes do not end up in circulation.

Ben Hanly, head of modern and contemporary art at Lyon & Turnbull, said the new authentication board - known as Vermin - would address a grey area in the market.

A committee called Pest Control was set up within the past few months to authenticate Banksy's prints and canvasses after fakes began to appear on the market.

"The market is relatively small for street pieces as not many have survived, even though they are by far the most important"

Ben Hanly
Lyon & Turnbull

But the body, which is endorsed by Banksy himself, deliberately avoids handling his "street pieces" created without permission early in his career.

Neither Banksy nor anybody directly associated with him is free to authenticate these works without the risk of opening him up to prosecution for vandalism.

But now, if authentication can be proved by documenting the work's proven history, it will be given a Vermin certificate. All works and their provenance would then be available for public examination and published on the internet.

It is hoped the process will help protect against future fakes and will provide a comprehensive guide to surviving works.

Mr Hanly said: "They want the certificate to be absolutely rock solid.

"The market is relatively small for street pieces as not many have survived, even though they are by far the most important. They're basically where his entire style came from and where his career came from."

Five street pieces valued at between £25,000 and £150,000, and a range of early prints, will go on sale at Lyon & Turnbull's auction of modern and contemporary art in London on 27 September.

[rosstierney]

banksyforum.proboards82.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=25145

[lee3]

Intertesting. I presume Vermin is NOT a Banksy or Pest Control sanctioned outfit? I thought Banksy's stance on this was crystal clear and therefore Vermin seems to contradict that. Is it possible this is some board not authorized by Banksy just giving a stamp of approval so that lesser auction houses feel comfortable selling these wares?

Or am I completely wrong and this is sanctioned by Banksy and Co. and we will begin to see Vermin authenticated pieces at Christies and Sotheby's (I'm rather doubtful of this).

Does anyone have more info because if this is for "real" you can be damn sure that every Banksy on the street will be removed sooner than later.

[Deleted]

I would imagine it is a body which has been thought up and put together by one or more auction houses and headed by one or more of their "Experts" in an attempt to give a stamp of authority to said pieces and thereby being able to tap in to that market sector which surely will rise in value once "Authorised" by Vermin, but thats just my thoughts and im usually wrong.

[rosstierney]

i'm going to start calling you wizwrong

[Deleted]

Sept 3, 2008 22:35:26 GMT 1 @rosstierney said:

i'm going to start calling you wizwrong

Hahaha thats me!haha.

[eddiedangerous]

interesting, i guess i'm gonna have a hunt around my garage as my friend used to work for the railways and had loads of signs

i used to live in the farringdon area circa 2002 and found them in the street

im from bristol and my brother used to paint with

he used to drink in my local

i found it nailed to a wall around the oldstreet area in 2000 and its definately a genuine piece

[Deleted]

Sept 3, 2008 22:42:01 GMT 1 eddiedangerous said:

interesting, i guess i'm gonna have a hunt around my garage as my friend used to work for the railways and had loads of signs

i used to live in the farringdon area circa 2002 and found them in the street

im from bristol and my brother used to paint with

he used to drink in my local

i found it nailed to a wall around the oldstreet area in 2000 and its definately a genuine piece

Have you got a picture?.

[eddiedangerous]

yeah its a piece called cartrain, but i mean its obviously Banksy, I mean look its a stencil...





this is a photo of it in its original context in Bristol er Brighton i mean i found it in Bethlehem when I was out there

its a genuine banksy for sure. a mate said he could get me 45k for it so you know im open to offers in that region. pm me to pick up a bargain before it hits the bay goes to auction this xmas.


( ;D)

[anorak]

www.artnet.com/magazineus/news/todd/todd9-3-08.asp - these Vermin jokers don't make any sense - How can it be an official register if Banksy has nothing to do with it? all this does is encourage the desecration of public works of art!

[mishco]

i'd love to hear laz's view on this.
apparently there's a couple well known large street pieces going to this auction but the main cover on the flyer is of a rat on bollard street piece valued at £30-40k, i'd be VERY worried about that one!

[alsbabar]

i know this piece, it was at the recent London Bristol New York show in Mayfair, it was not for sale, simply because Pest Control would not authenticate it, i see therefore no reason why they would now.

What is becoming more evident is, the high end collectors are looking for original Banksy street pieces and the fact that there are only a handful of authenticated pieces in the market, the demand outstrips the supply - so bodies like Vermin will crop up, who will use official books as their yardstick for authentication, which means they will bypass Pest Control. However I doubt for one moment Pest Control will let this slide, and will take the relevant actions to deal with this type of issue.

Just also read the artnet article - what a joke Lyon and Turnbull are. How can you provide authentication for a piece if the artist doesnt own up to it? What they will do is, authenticate a fake piece, which will sell for silly money, the buyer will end up suing Vermin, and they will soon end up with egg on their faces, and then bring in to doubt all other pieces they authenticated. I bet one of the people on board is, Jon Swinstead, who has entered the street bollard and a few other pieces in to this auction - just so he can line his pockets - the greedy f**ker
www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601088&sid=aeSRkT5BdflE&refer=muse

[stickee]

Sept 4, 2008 0:50:36 GMT 1 @alsbabar said:

i know this piece, it was at the recent London Bristol New York show in Mayfair, it was not for sale, simply because Pest Control would not authenticate it, i see therefore no reason why they would now.

What is becoming more evident is, the high end collectors are looking for original Banksy street pieces and the fact that there are only a handful of authenticated pieces in the market, the demand outstrips the supply - so bodies like Vermin will crop up, who will use official books as their yardstick for authentication, which means they will bypass Pest Control. However I doubt for one moment Pest Control will let this slide, and will take the relevant actions to deal with this type of issue.

Just also read the artnet article - what a joke Lyon and Turnbull are. How can you provide authentication for a piece if the artist doesnt own up to it? What they will do is, authenticate a fake piece, which will sell for silly money, the buyer will end up suing Vermin, and they will soon end up with egg on their faces, and then bring in to doubt all other pieces they authenticated. I bet one of the people on board is, Jon Swinstead, who has entered the street bollard and a few other pieces in to this auction - just so he can line his pockets - the greedy f**ker
www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601088&sid=aeSRkT5BdflE&refer=muse

unless pest control are going to say something is fake or the big B himself then how could you sue?
And would pest control saying its fake even be enough?

[alsbabar]

if you submit a piece to PC they will tell you if it is. PC is the ONLY official body for authenticating banksy art, therefore any buyer who invests a sizable amount, will still want PC authentication, so what would you do if you bought a streetpiece? You will still want it properly authenticated right? Do you honestly think that PC will authenticate a Vermin authenticated piece? It wont happen ever, simply because it renders PC useless.

[stickee]

thats what i was getting at, I was under the impression PC would not authenticate a street piece

so................unless pest control are going to say something is fake or the big B himself then how could you sue?
And would pest control saying its fake even be enough?

[alsbabar]

it shoud be enough - when PC speak, they speak for Banksy, therefore they will document this piece as not authentic, and as such the auction house who sold this an an AUTHENTICATED piece will be held liable.

[stickee]

Ah OK I didnt realise that PC basically say all street pieces are fake I was under the impression is was more like "no comment"

[weaver]

Sept 4, 2008 1:15:57 GMT 1 stickee said:

thats what i was getting at, I was under the impression PC would not authenticate a street piece

so................unless pest control are going to say something is fake or the big B himself then how could you sue?
And would pest control saying its fake even be enough?

It has to be enough as no-one else has any authority to authenticate any of MrBs work, I seem to remember a certain gallery decided to write their own COAs for banksy prints a few years ago.... and that was decidedly sh@t upon from a great height, bringing into question almost every piece bought from said gallery.

[alsbabar]

Sept 4, 2008 1:21:06 GMT 1 stickee said:

Ah OK I didnt realise that PC basically say all street pieces are fake I was under the impression is was more like "no comment"

they wont just tell you its a fake, they will confiscate the piece - and this has happened to someone i know who bought what they thought was an original street piece from an auction!!

[aginghippie]

Why don't Vermin start authenticating Warhol works as well? After all there are a lot of work the Warhol Art Authentication Board won't authenticate. There is an official body to authenticate Banksy's work and that is Pest Control, anyone using a second tier authentication deserves what they get (or don't get).

The only way I could see that you could do it would be an acknowledged image (a photo posted on his web site or in one of his books) with a chain of evidence between that image on the wall and the one in the auction room. But for that you don't need Vermin or even Pest Control.

[stickee]

Sept 4, 2008 1:30:19 GMT 1 @alsbabar said:

Sept 4, 2008 1:21:06 GMT 1 stickee said:

Ah OK I didnt realise that PC basically say all street pieces are fake I was under the impression is was more like "no comment"

they wont just tell you its a fake, they will confiscate the piece - and this has happened to someone i know who bought what they thought was an original street piece from an auction!!

ummm you are joking right?

[alsbabar]

nope

[thesewalls]

maybe Vermins 'authentication' is enough for said buyer(s)? knowing that they'll never have a complete C.O.A for any street piece, a nod from the 'experts' will suffice and lead to a content art collector. these pieces aren't being purchased as an investment, they are being bought to be displayed. to be loved. to say hello to when coming home...a conversation piece for company...a piece of history...a slamming image in its rawest form. as the author of this thread said, the official/business side of this whole thing is very sad, but i can't help but feel happy for whoever gets to bring home a new piece to display and look at, whether it be Banksy from the street or your daughters finger painting from class.

also, if you can't prove it's real how can you prove it's fake?

[thesewalls]

eddiedangerous you're a funny dude!!!!

[alsbabar]

based on your comments thesewalls, then if you think along those lines, authentication is irrelevant to you

[aginghippie]

Sept 4, 2008 1:54:59 GMT 1 thesewalls said:

...also, if you can't prove it's real how can you prove it's fake?

Nobody has to prove a work is fake but the seller *does* have to prove that it's real - that's the nature of provenance. If the provenance is weak then they should save some money and get someone to stencil a rat on a bollard for them - the value is the same.

By their very nature provenance is almost impossible on street pieces unless the artist admits to them. The best you can say is that they are "in the style of..." and for collectors that just doesn't cut it.

[thesewalls]

yes alsbabar, authentication is for the most part irrelevant to me.

aginghippie i appreciate the words. the comment was a bit tongue in cheek. i do believe you can do better than 'in the style of...' if the right information is/was available to you. for instance, i have a Faile wheat paste on wood from the street that i bought off a neighborhood artist (Failes studio is right around the corner). i had seen this exact piece in the street and have pictures of it in its original location. i also have pictures of it missing. the wall is now gone entirely, and a new building on its way up. i know we're not talking about Banksy here, but the concept remains the same...loosely. i know it's the real deal. if it wasn't already hanging on my wall and it came up in auction, i would bid confidently regardless of provenance. but again, this is a very specific example...how much it applies to this thread i of course can't exactly say...you see where i'm coming from though at least, yes?

[weaver]

Its nice that thesewalls has the confidence and good fortune to have a nice street piece, but the ammount of bullsh1t fake street pieces appearing pretending to be real banksy's at a premium price has increased markedly of late, some of which are of a very high standard ( badmeaninggood roadsign as an example). We have seen before what can happen when people who are in no way authorised start creating their own COAs for dodgy pieces, and I personally would not like to see credence given to the sale of street pieces ( real of fake) and the probability of people getting royally ripped off.

[mcster]

Pest Control could cause chaos here if they thought about it; send someone in incognito to buy one of the street pieces, then once the auction is done make a public statement 'authenticating' the piece, or pieces, their person has bought and say all the others are fake. I don't know who this board are, but whoever they are, unless they are involving Laz, Banksy etc, they won't have any clout with real collectors.

[doublehelix]

I hope PC pull the rug on Vermin, cheeky fuggers!