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Albert willem prices?, by High Contrast on Apr 19, 2024 18:14:08 GMT 1, Am I right in thinking this is about 90% lower than what his works were going for last year?
Can any Willem followers who are more educated on this give insight?
I like his works but no idea about his market
www.phillips.com/detail/albert-willem/UK010324/153
Am I right in thinking this is about 90% lower than what his works were going for last year? Can any Willem followers who are more educated on this give insight? I like his works but no idea about his market www.phillips.com/detail/albert-willem/UK010324/153 |
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cemltz
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October 2022
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Albert willem prices?, by cemltz on Apr 19, 2024 18:20:15 GMT 1, I’m not one to point fingers or make accusations - but if you check other threads there have been mentions elsewhere. His market was very suspicious. You could get an original directly from his gallery representation for $40K (with a two year no resale) and they were auctioning at 3-4x that. Again, I’m not saying … just sayin’ …
I’m not one to point fingers or make accusations - but if you check other threads there have been mentions elsewhere. His market was very suspicious. You could get an original directly from his gallery representation for $40K (with a two year no resale) and they were auctioning at 3-4x that. Again, I’m not saying … just sayin’ …
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artearte
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Albert willem prices?, by artearte on Apr 19, 2024 18:36:36 GMT 1, This have been one of the biggest scam in the art market with few other artist, mainly done for few galley Maddox was one of them
This have been one of the biggest scam in the art market with few other artist, mainly done for few galley Maddox was one of them
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Wanchope
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February 2020
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Albert willem prices?, by Wanchope on Apr 19, 2024 21:10:00 GMT 1, Yep I was nearly involved. One minute I was buying ( never arrived) a canvas for £500 from this forum then a couple of months goes by where it has clearly “gone missing” in the post. Then suddenly it would have been worth £50,000 almost overnight. Artist never responded to any requests to help and was taken under the belt of a gallery. Then some crazy auction results for about a year and the other day out of the blue I’m offered a piece by a gallery saying they had a few pieces available??!! They never gave me a chance before and then suddenly a few and at much reduced prices. Go figure
Yep I was nearly involved. One minute I was buying ( never arrived) a canvas for £500 from this forum then a couple of months goes by where it has clearly “gone missing” in the post. Then suddenly it would have been worth £50,000 almost overnight. Artist never responded to any requests to help and was taken under the belt of a gallery. Then some crazy auction results for about a year and the other day out of the blue I’m offered a piece by a gallery saying they had a few pieces available??!! They never gave me a chance before and then suddenly a few and at much reduced prices. Go figure
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LJCal
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December 2019
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Albert willem prices?, by LJCal on Apr 20, 2024 2:37:33 GMT 1, Just one of several investment pump and dumps which have been massive frauds. Willem, McCormick, Babaar, Ismail to name a few (some of these are still in the pump but ass will fall out soon). Collectors have lost millions between them, I know some individuals who have lost tens to hundreds of thousands and been left with worthless doorstops. We all know the galleries involved and I'm quite happy to call this out as criminal because I know what's gone on, seriously people should go to jail for this shit. In the background there's some seriously rich fucking scum bags involved, total shits with billions whose names begin with N. Personally I fucked some of these clowns when they were still in the pump phase of one of their many schemes, and made them buy their worthless doorstops back off me at auction 1 month later, for twice the price plus pay a fuck tonne of auction fees, cost them at least hundred grand plus. Felt great TBH but in realty they've schemed tens of millions doing this shit, so drop in the ocean (some of the backers have made billions over decades of doing this crooked shit).
But guys serious lesson, do not give auction results too much weight especially with emerging artists, people on here obsess over auction results and treat them as gospel. I know all the shit that goes on, from shill schemes like this, to buyers bidding up works with sock puppet accounts and then defaulting (will still show as a sale). Conversely bad results don't tell the full story either, most sales go on in private and an artists private sale market can at times behave very differently to their auction sales (in fact it's this reason these schemes exist).
But it comes back to the age old lesson if it's too good to be true it probably is. Likelihood is if you're getting offered works at 25% of (crazily inflated) auction prices from an artist that's come from nowhere, with a 2 year no resale you're being scammed. If you have the balls and contacts at the auction houses you can always stick it to the thieves by wiping your ass with their no resale agreement and selling it in next auction, likelihood is that if they're invested they'll have to buy it for way more money to keep the ponzy scheme alive, not without risks this. Best advice is avoid and buy artists with proper track records through established reputable galleries, if you want emerging buy cheap and ideally direct from studio.
Just one of several investment pump and dumps which have been massive frauds. Willem, McCormick, Babaar, Ismail to name a few (some of these are still in the pump but ass will fall out soon). Collectors have lost millions between them, I know some individuals who have lost tens to hundreds of thousands and been left with worthless doorstops. We all know the galleries involved and I'm quite happy to call this out as criminal because I know what's gone on, seriously people should go to jail for this shit. In the background there's some seriously rich fucking scum bags involved, total shits with billions whose names begin with N. Personally I fucked some of these clowns when they were still in the pump phase of one of their many schemes, and made them buy their worthless doorstops back off me at auction 1 month later, for twice the price plus pay a fuck tonne of auction fees, cost them at least hundred grand plus. Felt great TBH but in realty they've schemed tens of millions doing this shit, so drop in the ocean (some of the backers have made billions over decades of doing this crooked shit).
But guys serious lesson, do not give auction results too much weight especially with emerging artists, people on here obsess over auction results and treat them as gospel. I know all the shit that goes on, from shill schemes like this, to buyers bidding up works with sock puppet accounts and then defaulting (will still show as a sale). Conversely bad results don't tell the full story either, most sales go on in private and an artists private sale market can at times behave very differently to their auction sales (in fact it's this reason these schemes exist).
But it comes back to the age old lesson if it's too good to be true it probably is. Likelihood is if you're getting offered works at 25% of (crazily inflated) auction prices from an artist that's come from nowhere, with a 2 year no resale you're being scammed. If you have the balls and contacts at the auction houses you can always stick it to the thieves by wiping your ass with their no resale agreement and selling it in next auction, likelihood is that if they're invested they'll have to buy it for way more money to keep the ponzy scheme alive, not without risks this. Best advice is avoid and buy artists with proper track records through established reputable galleries, if you want emerging buy cheap and ideally direct from studio.
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Wanchope
Junior Member
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February 2020
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Albert willem prices?, by Wanchope on Apr 20, 2024 7:33:34 GMT 1, Also I have to say that I remember the top auction houses getting into Willem which tells me they are just as bad as anyone else out there. So Sothebys and Christie’s cannot be trusted!
Also I have to say that I remember the top auction houses getting into Willem which tells me they are just as bad as anyone else out there. So Sothebys and Christie’s cannot be trusted!
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compound
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January 2022
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Albert willem prices?, by compound on Apr 20, 2024 7:53:30 GMT 1, Just one of several investment pump and dumps which have been massive frauds. Willem, McCormick, Babaar, Ismail to name a few (some of these are still in the pump but ass will fall out soon). Collectors have lost millions between them, I know some individuals who have lost tens to hundreds of thousands and been left with worthless doorstops. We all know the galleries involved and I'm quite happy to call this out as criminal because I know what's gone on, seriously people should go to jail for this shit. In the background there's some seriously rich fucking scum bags involved, total shits with billions whose names begin with N. Personally I fucked some of these clowns when they were still in the pump phase of one of their many schemes, and made them buy their worthless doorstops back off me at auction 1 month later, for twice the price plus pay a fuck tonne of auction fees, cost them at least hundred grand plus. Felt great TBH but in realty they've schemed tens of millions doing this shit, so drop in the ocean (some of the backers have made billions over decades of doing this crooked shit). But guys serious lesson, do not give auction results too much weight especially with emerging artists, people on here obsess over auction results and treat them as gospel. I know all the shit that goes on, from shill schemes like this, to buyers bidding up works with sock puppet accounts and then defaulting (will still show as a sale). Conversely bad results don't tell the full story either, most sales go on in private and an artists private sale market can at times behave very differently to their auction sales (in fact it's this reason these schemes exist). But it comes back to the age old lesson if it's too good to be true it probably is. Likelihood is if you're getting offered works at 25% below (crazily inflated) auction prices from an artist that's come from nowhere, with a 2 year no resale you're being scammed. If you have the balls and contacts at the auction houses you can always stick it to the thieves by wiping your ass with their no resale agreement and selling it in next auction, likelihood is that if they're invested they'll have to buy it for way more money to keep the ponzy scheme alive, not without risks this. Best advice is avoid and buy artists with proper track records through established reputable galleries, if you want emerging buy cheap and ideally direct from studio.
Just one of several investment pump and dumps which have been massive frauds. Willem, McCormick, Babaar, Ismail to name a few (some of these are still in the pump but ass will fall out soon). Collectors have lost millions between them, I know some individuals who have lost tens to hundreds of thousands and been left with worthless doorstops. We all know the galleries involved and I'm quite happy to call this out as criminal because I know what's gone on, seriously people should go to jail for this shit. In the background there's some seriously rich fucking scum bags involved, total shits with billions whose names begin with N. Personally I fucked some of these clowns when they were still in the pump phase of one of their many schemes, and made them buy their worthless doorstops back off me at auction 1 month later, for twice the price plus pay a fuck tonne of auction fees, cost them at least hundred grand plus. Felt great TBH but in realty they've schemed tens of millions doing this shit, so drop in the ocean (some of the backers have made billions over decades of doing this crooked shit). But guys serious lesson, do not give auction results too much weight especially with emerging artists, people on here obsess over auction results and treat them as gospel. I know all the shit that goes on, from shill schemes like this, to buyers bidding up works with sock puppet accounts and then defaulting (will still show as a sale). Conversely bad results don't tell the full story either, most sales go on in private and an artists private sale market can at times behave very differently to their auction sales (in fact it's this reason these schemes exist). But it comes back to the age old lesson if it's too good to be true it probably is. Likelihood is if you're getting offered works at 25% below (crazily inflated) auction prices from an artist that's come from nowhere, with a 2 year no resale you're being scammed. If you have the balls and contacts at the auction houses you can always stick it to the thieves by wiping your ass with their no resale agreement and selling it in next auction, likelihood is that if they're invested they'll have to buy it for way more money to keep the ponzy scheme alive, not without risks this. Best advice is avoid and buy artists with proper track records through established reputable galleries, if you want emerging buy cheap and ideally direct from studio. There’s a few more artists that could be named here. Crooks. Also, the artists are so dumb or going along with it |
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drip
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February 2015
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Albert willem prices?, by drip on Apr 20, 2024 9:21:28 GMT 1, Must be a weird position to be in if you're one of the artists involved. I mean, you want to make money, you want your work to sell, for the prices to rise, but you know folk will be ripped off. I mean, how does it work? - does Satan appear and tell you he's going to make you rich and successful? That the actual buyers have too much money in the first place?
This feels like they're using the art market like the stock market.
Must be a weird position to be in if you're one of the artists involved. I mean, you want to make money, you want your work to sell, for the prices to rise, but you know folk will be ripped off. I mean, how does it work? - does Satan appear and tell you he's going to make you rich and successful? That the actual buyers have too much money in the first place?
This feels like they're using the art market like the stock market.
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drip
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February 2015
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Albert willem prices?, by drip on Apr 20, 2024 9:45:02 GMT 1, So, let me see if I've got this right.
Some shady wealthy people (they're all shady), we'll call them The Syndicate, select an unknown artist, largely because there'll be limited work already out there, so they can control the flow and prices of the available works; and also an emerging artist will be more likely to be willing to go along with a get-rich-quick scheme.
Plus, if they select artists with a simple style, who create work with (all due respect) the look of an escaped mental patient, the work itself has no complex skill or artistic talent behind it, etc, so it will be less likely to have real appeal to the average person; that will mean there's less chance it will be desirable to a wider (and real) market on its own merit. The market for the artist's work will be 99% reliant on The Syndicate.
They then put works into auction and create a series of ridiculously high prices, that make it look like the work of this artist is taking off (but perhaps not even finalising the sales and payments on these high hammer results). All auction results for the chosen artist have to be high now.
Behind the auction scenes, in private sales, The Syndicate start offering works to collectors, relying largely on hype and FOMO, offering them at prices below what works are selling for at auction.
New buyers and collectors think they're getting a good deal because they're getting (apparently) desirable works for a good price, perhaps even buying from source, and the auction results suggest prices for this artist are only going up and up, happy days, so they buy; perhaps with an agreement not to sell for 2 years (so The Syndicate can control the supply and price of available works, and don't have to artificially inflate the price of works they don't own at auction)
At some point, The Syndicate pulls the plug on the scheme, walking away with the money from all the new collectors (investors).
With The Syndicate not there to artificially prop up prices, auction results plummet, the market for the artist drops, and the new collectors are left with works that will never sell for a profit now, meaning they've lost money.
The Syndicate moves on to another unknown artist, and repeat.
Is that how it goes?
So, let me see if I've got this right.
Some shady wealthy people (they're all shady), we'll call them The Syndicate, select an unknown artist, largely because there'll be limited work already out there, so they can control the flow and prices of the available works; and also an emerging artist will be more likely to be willing to go along with a get-rich-quick scheme.
Plus, if they select artists with a simple style, who create work with (all due respect) the look of an escaped mental patient, the work itself has no complex skill or artistic talent behind it, etc, so it will be less likely to have real appeal to the average person; that will mean there's less chance it will be desirable to a wider (and real) market on its own merit. The market for the artist's work will be 99% reliant on The Syndicate.
They then put works into auction and create a series of ridiculously high prices, that make it look like the work of this artist is taking off (but perhaps not even finalising the sales and payments on these high hammer results). All auction results for the chosen artist have to be high now.
Behind the auction scenes, in private sales, The Syndicate start offering works to collectors, relying largely on hype and FOMO, offering them at prices below what works are selling for at auction.
New buyers and collectors think they're getting a good deal because they're getting (apparently) desirable works for a good price, perhaps even buying from source, and the auction results suggest prices for this artist are only going up and up, happy days, so they buy; perhaps with an agreement not to sell for 2 years (so The Syndicate can control the supply and price of available works, and don't have to artificially inflate the price of works they don't own at auction)
At some point, The Syndicate pulls the plug on the scheme, walking away with the money from all the new collectors (investors).
With The Syndicate not there to artificially prop up prices, auction results plummet, the market for the artist drops, and the new collectors are left with works that will never sell for a profit now, meaning they've lost money.
The Syndicate moves on to another unknown artist, and repeat.
Is that how it goes?
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artearte
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August 2015
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Albert willem prices?, by artearte on Apr 20, 2024 9:59:14 GMT 1, Just one of several investment pump and dumps which have been massive frauds. Willem, McCormick, Babaar, Ismail to name a few (some of these are still in the pump but ass will fall out soon). Collectors have lost millions between them, I know some individuals who have lost tens to hundreds of thousands and been left with worthless doorstops. We all know the galleries involved and I'm quite happy to call this out as criminal because I know what's gone on, seriously people should go to jail for this shit. In the background there's some seriously rich fucking scum bags involved, total shits with billions whose names begin with N. Personally I fucked some of these clowns when they were still in the pump phase of one of their many schemes, and made them buy their worthless doorstops back off me at auction 1 month later, for twice the price plus pay a fuck tonne of auction fees, cost them at least hundred grand plus. Felt great TBH but in realty they've schemed tens of millions doing this shit, so drop in the ocean (some of the backers have made billions over decades of doing this crooked shit). But guys serious lesson, do not give auction results too much weight especially with emerging artists, people on here obsess over auction results and treat them as gospel. I know all the shit that goes on, from shill schemes like this, to buyers bidding up works with sock puppet accounts and then defaulting (will still show as a sale). Conversely bad results don't tell the full story either, most sales go on in private and an artists private sale market can at times behave very differently to their auction sales (in fact it's this reason these schemes exist). But it comes back to the age old lesson if it's too good to be true it probably is. Likelihood is if you're getting offered works at 25% below (crazily inflated) auction prices from an artist that's come from nowhere, with a 2 year no resale you're being scammed. If you have the balls and contacts at the auction houses you can always stick it to the thieves by wiping your ass with their no resale agreement and selling it in next auction, likelihood is that if they're invested they'll have to buy it for way more money to keep the ponzy scheme alive, not without risks this. Best advice is avoid and buy artists with proper track records through established reputable galleries, if you want emerging buy cheap and ideally direct from studio.
gallery like madox, Waterhouse & Dodd etc and few auctions house are in all of this.
you can big in auction to 200k and never paid and nothing will happened… those scammer ask you to signed 2/3 year not reselling contract and in this time is when they making the money, when you time is coming to sale the price is worth 80% lest than what I bought.
Just one of several investment pump and dumps which have been massive frauds. Willem, McCormick, Babaar, Ismail to name a few (some of these are still in the pump but ass will fall out soon). Collectors have lost millions between them, I know some individuals who have lost tens to hundreds of thousands and been left with worthless doorstops. We all know the galleries involved and I'm quite happy to call this out as criminal because I know what's gone on, seriously people should go to jail for this shit. In the background there's some seriously rich fucking scum bags involved, total shits with billions whose names begin with N. Personally I fucked some of these clowns when they were still in the pump phase of one of their many schemes, and made them buy their worthless doorstops back off me at auction 1 month later, for twice the price plus pay a fuck tonne of auction fees, cost them at least hundred grand plus. Felt great TBH but in realty they've schemed tens of millions doing this shit, so drop in the ocean (some of the backers have made billions over decades of doing this crooked shit). But guys serious lesson, do not give auction results too much weight especially with emerging artists, people on here obsess over auction results and treat them as gospel. I know all the shit that goes on, from shill schemes like this, to buyers bidding up works with sock puppet accounts and then defaulting (will still show as a sale). Conversely bad results don't tell the full story either, most sales go on in private and an artists private sale market can at times behave very differently to their auction sales (in fact it's this reason these schemes exist). But it comes back to the age old lesson if it's too good to be true it probably is. Likelihood is if you're getting offered works at 25% below (crazily inflated) auction prices from an artist that's come from nowhere, with a 2 year no resale you're being scammed. If you have the balls and contacts at the auction houses you can always stick it to the thieves by wiping your ass with their no resale agreement and selling it in next auction, likelihood is that if they're invested they'll have to buy it for way more money to keep the ponzy scheme alive, not without risks this. Best advice is avoid and buy artists with proper track records through established reputable galleries, if you want emerging buy cheap and ideally direct from studio. You 100% right on this, gallery like madox, Waterhouse & Dodd etc and few auctions house are in all of this. you can big in auction to 200k and never paid and nothing will happened… those scammer ask you to signed 2/3 year not reselling contract and in this time is when they making the money, when you time is coming to sale the price is worth 80% lest than what I bought. |
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Albert willem prices?, by Acme Thunderer on Apr 20, 2024 10:06:27 GMT 1, You forgot to add the bit about the buyers then continuing to hype work they own and discuss every auction result going as they are just as greedy.
Hard to find much sympathy with anyone involved as buyers are just as complicit.
You forgot to add the bit about the buyers then continuing to hype work they own and discuss every auction result going as they are just as greedy.
Hard to find much sympathy with anyone involved as buyers are just as complicit.
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drip
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February 2015
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Albert willem prices?, by drip on Apr 20, 2024 10:13:08 GMT 1, You forgot to add the bit about the buyers then continuing to hype work they own and discuss every auction result going as they are just as greedy. Hard to find much sympathy with anyone involved as buyers are just as complicit.
You forgot to add the bit about the buyers then continuing to hype work they own and discuss every auction result going as they are just as greedy. Hard to find much sympathy with anyone involved as buyers are just as complicit. That's part of the scheme now, eh? Unless you're buying because you like it, if you're only buying as an investment, once you buy - you're in. You have to become a cheerleader for the art. You HAVE to be the best cheerleader for the art, because the value of your art depends on the perceived value. Because the art itself has no value other than the value people are willing to believe it has. And if it stands on its own merit, without the artificial auction prices, it's nowhere. You're done. |
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Albert willem prices?, by from mjolnir on Apr 20, 2024 10:17:30 GMT 1, I'm just super interested by the mechanics of this. So talking hard data, I've plotted all the auction results on Artsy since he first appeared in May 2022 until today. There's 51 results with prices - three of these were brought in (Nov 2022, Mar 2023 and Mar 2024) and in total there were US$4,859,655 of sales with fees. A few of these were less than 20k aside from the recent one, including in Mar 2023 and two in Dec 2023.
So what's the play here? Are all $5m in sales by the syndicate or only a bunch of them? And are they just selling to themselves, unless third parties jump in (so the only loss is auction fees)? Are the low results where the syndicate decided to let market forces set price / they weren't sales initiated by them?
I know eg the Warhol market is controlled by effectively 5 players who have a syndicate to ensure his prices meet a certain threshold (including buying in underperforming works), but just intrigued how a pump and dump works with emerging ones.
I'm just super interested by the mechanics of this. So talking hard data, I've plotted all the auction results on Artsy since he first appeared in May 2022 until today. There's 51 results with prices - three of these were brought in (Nov 2022, Mar 2023 and Mar 2024) and in total there were US$4,859,655 of sales with fees. A few of these were less than 20k aside from the recent one, including in Mar 2023 and two in Dec 2023. So what's the play here? Are all $5m in sales by the syndicate or only a bunch of them? And are they just selling to themselves, unless third parties jump in (so the only loss is auction fees)? Are the low results where the syndicate decided to let market forces set price / they weren't sales initiated by them? I know eg the Warhol market is controlled by effectively 5 players who have a syndicate to ensure his prices meet a certain threshold (including buying in underperforming works), but just intrigued how a pump and dump works with emerging ones. |
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Albert willem prices?, by from mjolnir on Apr 20, 2024 10:18:43 GMT 1, I'm just super interested by the mechanics of this. So talking hard data, I've plotted all the auction results on Artsy since he first appeared in May 2022 until today. There's 51 results with prices - three of these were brought in (Nov 2022, Mar 2023 and Mar 2024) and in total there were US$4,859,655 of sales with fees. A few of these were less than 20k aside from the recent one, including in Mar 2023 and two in Dec 2023. So what's the play here? Are all $5m in sales by the syndicate or only a bunch of them? And are they just selling to themselves, unless third parties jump in (so the only loss is auction fees)? Are the low results where the syndicate decided to let market forces set price / they weren't sales initiated by them? I know eg the Warhol market is controlled by effectively 5 players who have a syndicate to ensure his prices meet a certain threshold (including buying in underperforming works), but just intrigued how a pump and dump works with emerging ones.
www.imghippo.com/i/k0A3H1713604447.jpg
I'm just super interested by the mechanics of this. So talking hard data, I've plotted all the auction results on Artsy since he first appeared in May 2022 until today. There's 51 results with prices - three of these were brought in (Nov 2022, Mar 2023 and Mar 2024) and in total there were US$4,859,655 of sales with fees. A few of these were less than 20k aside from the recent one, including in Mar 2023 and two in Dec 2023. So what's the play here? Are all $5m in sales by the syndicate or only a bunch of them? And are they just selling to themselves, unless third parties jump in (so the only loss is auction fees)? Are the low results where the syndicate decided to let market forces set price / they weren't sales initiated by them? I know eg the Warhol market is controlled by effectively 5 players who have a syndicate to ensure his prices meet a certain threshold (including buying in underperforming works), but just intrigued how a pump and dump works with emerging ones. Not sure how to embed an image, so here it is www.imghippo.com/i/k0A3H1713604447.jpg |
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Pawel
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June 2015
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Albert willem prices?, by Pawel on Apr 20, 2024 10:37:20 GMT 1, I'm just super interested by the mechanics of this. So talking hard data, I've plotted all the auction results on Artsy since he first appeared in May 2022 until today. There's 51 results with prices - three of these were brought in (Nov 2022, Mar 2023 and Mar 2024) and in total there were US$4,859,655 of sales with fees. A few of these were less than 20k aside from the recent one, including in Mar 2023 and two in Dec 2023. So what's the play here? Are all $5m in sales by the syndicate or only a bunch of them? And are they just selling to themselves, unless third parties jump in (so the only loss is auction fees)? Are the low results where the syndicate decided to let market forces set price / they weren't sales initiated by them? I know eg the Warhol market is controlled by effectively 5 players who have a syndicate to ensure his prices meet a certain threshold (including buying in underperforming works), but just intrigued how a pump and dump works with emerging ones.
You hope that the trend will catch up. Prices are so high, I've heard Gagosian will represent him.
At the same time you sell 30-40 works for a bargain 50k apiece.
After a while everyone sees no show or gallery rep is gonna happen and prices dive.
I'm just super interested by the mechanics of this. So talking hard data, I've plotted all the auction results on Artsy since he first appeared in May 2022 until today. There's 51 results with prices - three of these were brought in (Nov 2022, Mar 2023 and Mar 2024) and in total there were US$4,859,655 of sales with fees. A few of these were less than 20k aside from the recent one, including in Mar 2023 and two in Dec 2023. So what's the play here? Are all $5m in sales by the syndicate or only a bunch of them? And are they just selling to themselves, unless third parties jump in (so the only loss is auction fees)? Are the low results where the syndicate decided to let market forces set price / they weren't sales initiated by them? I know eg the Warhol market is controlled by effectively 5 players who have a syndicate to ensure his prices meet a certain threshold (including buying in underperforming works), but just intrigued how a pump and dump works with emerging ones. I guess the idea is to sell and buy a fee works at auction for inflated prices ie 150k. The works are your own or your friends so you're only down auction fees and taxes. You hope that the trend will catch up. Prices are so high, I've heard Gagosian will represent him. At the same time you sell 30-40 works for a bargain 50k apiece. After a while everyone sees no show or gallery rep is gonna happen and prices dive. |
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LJCal
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December 2019
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Albert willem prices?, by LJCal on Apr 20, 2024 11:47:21 GMT 1, Also I have to say that I remember the top auction houses getting into Willem which tells me they are just as bad as anyone else out there. So Sothebys and Christie’s cannot be trusted!
Also I have to say that I remember the top auction houses getting into Willem which tells me they are just as bad as anyone else out there. So Sothebys and Christie’s cannot be trusted! There’s no way they’re in on any conspiracy, but I know from conversations with a few individuals working at big auction houses, that the staff at the coal face are fully aware of high level of defaults and suspicious bidding activity on certain of the artists I named. Really they’re happy to turn a blind eye when the premiums are rolling in and they’re getting results of 5-10x high estimate which obviously is great marketing. I’m sure in the unlikely event the authorities do something or the press get hold of it nothing would stick to any of the big auction houses and they’d be able to plead ignorance, worst case couple of bad headlines, a few internal reports and maybe a few low level sackings. |
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LJCal
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December 2019
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Albert willem prices?, by LJCal on Apr 20, 2024 11:52:17 GMT 1, Just one of several investment pump and dumps which have been massive frauds. Willem, McCormick, Babaar, Ismail to name a few (some of these are still in the pump but ass will fall out soon). Collectors have lost millions between them, I know some individuals who have lost tens to hundreds of thousands and been left with worthless doorstops. We all know the galleries involved and I'm quite happy to call this out as criminal because I know what's gone on, seriously people should go to jail for this shit. In the background there's some seriously rich fucking scum bags involved, total shits with billions whose names begin with N. Personally I fucked some of these clowns when they were still in the pump phase of one of their many schemes, and made them buy their worthless doorstops back off me at auction 1 month later, for twice the price plus pay a fuck tonne of auction fees, cost them at least hundred grand plus. Felt great TBH but in realty they've schemed tens of millions doing this shit, so drop in the ocean (some of the backers have made billions over decades of doing this crooked shit). But guys serious lesson, do not give auction results too much weight especially with emerging artists, people on here obsess over auction results and treat them as gospel. I know all the shit that goes on, from shill schemes like this, to buyers bidding up works with sock puppet accounts and then defaulting (will still show as a sale). Conversely bad results don't tell the full story either, most sales go on in private and an artists private sale market can at times behave very differently to their auction sales (in fact it's this reason these schemes exist). But it comes back to the age old lesson if it's too good to be true it probably is. Likelihood is if you're getting offered works at 25% below (crazily inflated) auction prices from an artist that's come from nowhere, with a 2 year no resale you're being scammed. If you have the balls and contacts at the auction houses you can always stick it to the thieves by wiping your ass with their no resale agreement and selling it in next auction, likelihood is that if they're invested they'll have to buy it for way more money to keep the ponzy scheme alive, not without risks this. Best advice is avoid and buy artists with proper track records through established reputable galleries, if you want emerging buy cheap and ideally direct from studio. There’s a few more artists that could be named here. Crooks. Also, the artists are so dumb or going along with it
Just one of several investment pump and dumps which have been massive frauds. Willem, McCormick, Babaar, Ismail to name a few (some of these are still in the pump but ass will fall out soon). Collectors have lost millions between them, I know some individuals who have lost tens to hundreds of thousands and been left with worthless doorstops. We all know the galleries involved and I'm quite happy to call this out as criminal because I know what's gone on, seriously people should go to jail for this shit. In the background there's some seriously rich fucking scum bags involved, total shits with billions whose names begin with N. Personally I fucked some of these clowns when they were still in the pump phase of one of their many schemes, and made them buy their worthless doorstops back off me at auction 1 month later, for twice the price plus pay a fuck tonne of auction fees, cost them at least hundred grand plus. Felt great TBH but in realty they've schemed tens of millions doing this shit, so drop in the ocean (some of the backers have made billions over decades of doing this crooked shit). But guys serious lesson, do not give auction results too much weight especially with emerging artists, people on here obsess over auction results and treat them as gospel. I know all the shit that goes on, from shill schemes like this, to buyers bidding up works with sock puppet accounts and then defaulting (will still show as a sale). Conversely bad results don't tell the full story either, most sales go on in private and an artists private sale market can at times behave very differently to their auction sales (in fact it's this reason these schemes exist). But it comes back to the age old lesson if it's too good to be true it probably is. Likelihood is if you're getting offered works at 25% below (crazily inflated) auction prices from an artist that's come from nowhere, with a 2 year no resale you're being scammed. If you have the balls and contacts at the auction houses you can always stick it to the thieves by wiping your ass with their no resale agreement and selling it in next auction, likelihood is that if they're invested they'll have to buy it for way more money to keep the ponzy scheme alive, not without risks this. Best advice is avoid and buy artists with proper track records through established reputable galleries, if you want emerging buy cheap and ideally direct from studio. There’s a few more artists that could be named here. Crooks. Also, the artists are so dumb or going along with it Just naive. I wouldn’t go as far as to call them victims but some of these guys would have gone from struggling to pay their bills to earning hundreds of thousands a year churning out industrial numbers of canvases, the more savy (which are the minority) will step out of it with maybe seven figures but most will earn money for a few years and then have a career that’s in the bin. Most artists have zero clue of the functioning of the market especially when they are starting out, I highly doubt any of them could conceive of how a scheme like this even works or that they’re part of it. |
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LJCal
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December 2019
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Albert willem prices?, by LJCal on Apr 20, 2024 11:54:15 GMT 1, Must be a weird position to be in if you're one of the artists involved. I mean, you want to make money, you want your work to sell, for the prices to rise, but you know folk will be ripped off. I mean, how does it work? - does Satan appear and tell you he's going to make you rich and successful? That the actual buyers have too much money in the first place? This feels like they're using the art market like the stock market.
Must be a weird position to be in if you're one of the artists involved. I mean, you want to make money, you want your work to sell, for the prices to rise, but you know folk will be ripped off. I mean, how does it work? - does Satan appear and tell you he's going to make you rich and successful? That the actual buyers have too much money in the first place? This feels like they're using the art market like the stock market. Most won’t have a clue, they’ll just think they’ve finally made it. |
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LJCal
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December 2019
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Albert willem prices?, by LJCal on Apr 20, 2024 12:00:36 GMT 1, So, let me see if I've got this right. Some shady wealthy people (they're all shady), we'll call them The Syndicate, select an unknown artist, largely because there'll be limited work already out there, so they can control the flow and prices of the available works; and also an emerging artist will be more likely to be willing to go along with a get-rich-quick scheme. Plus, if they select artists with a simple style, who create work with (all due respect) the look of an escaped mental patient, the work itself has no complex skill or artistic talent behind it, etc, so it will be less likely to have real appeal to the average person; that will mean there's less chance it will be desirable to a wider (and real) market on its own merit. The market for the artist's work will be 99% reliant on The Syndicate. They then put works into auction and create a series of ridiculously high prices, that make it look like the work of this artist is taking off (but perhaps not even finalising the sales and payments on these high hammer results). All auction results for the chosen artist have to be high now. Behind the auction scenes, in private sales, The Syndicate start offering works to collectors, relying largely on hype and FOMO, offering them at prices below what works are selling for at auction. New buyers and collectors think they're getting a good deal because they're getting (apparently) desirable works for a good price, perhaps even buying from source, and the auction results suggest prices for this artist are only going up and up, happy days, so they buy; perhaps with an agreement not to sell for 2 years (so The Syndicate can control the supply and price of available works, and don't have to artificially inflate the price of works they don't own at auction) At some point, The Syndicate pulls the plug on the scheme, walking away with the money from all the new collectors (investors). With The Syndicate not there to artificially prop up prices, auction results plummet, the market for the artist drops, and the new collectors are left with works that will never sell for a profit now, meaning they've lost money. The Syndicate moves on to another unknown artist, and repeat. Is that how it goes?
So, let me see if I've got this right. Some shady wealthy people (they're all shady), we'll call them The Syndicate, select an unknown artist, largely because there'll be limited work already out there, so they can control the flow and prices of the available works; and also an emerging artist will be more likely to be willing to go along with a get-rich-quick scheme. Plus, if they select artists with a simple style, who create work with (all due respect) the look of an escaped mental patient, the work itself has no complex skill or artistic talent behind it, etc, so it will be less likely to have real appeal to the average person; that will mean there's less chance it will be desirable to a wider (and real) market on its own merit. The market for the artist's work will be 99% reliant on The Syndicate. They then put works into auction and create a series of ridiculously high prices, that make it look like the work of this artist is taking off (but perhaps not even finalising the sales and payments on these high hammer results). All auction results for the chosen artist have to be high now. Behind the auction scenes, in private sales, The Syndicate start offering works to collectors, relying largely on hype and FOMO, offering them at prices below what works are selling for at auction. New buyers and collectors think they're getting a good deal because they're getting (apparently) desirable works for a good price, perhaps even buying from source, and the auction results suggest prices for this artist are only going up and up, happy days, so they buy; perhaps with an agreement not to sell for 2 years (so The Syndicate can control the supply and price of available works, and don't have to artificially inflate the price of works they don't own at auction) At some point, The Syndicate pulls the plug on the scheme, walking away with the money from all the new collectors (investors). With The Syndicate not there to artificially prop up prices, auction results plummet, the market for the artist drops, and the new collectors are left with works that will never sell for a profit now, meaning they've lost money. The Syndicate moves on to another unknown artist, and repeat. Is that how it goes? Spot on. The sales pitch goes a little something like, oh I have access to this really hot emerging artist (I can buy from his/her studio at primary prices), their large canvases are like £20-30k but selling for £200k at auction. Can’t get any right now but I’ll let you know when I get access. Few weeks later call back collector, oh you’re in luck, studio has given me access to 4-5 canvases, but you need to move quickly, oh and you can’t resell for 2-5 years. After 2-5 years you’ve got a door stop as thousands of canvases been sold auction prices are no longer being supported by the scammers and everyone wants out. That’s basically it. |
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LJCal
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December 2019
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Albert willem prices?, by LJCal on Apr 20, 2024 12:08:15 GMT 1, Just one of several investment pump and dumps which have been massive frauds. Willem, McCormick, Babaar, Ismail to name a few (some of these are still in the pump but ass will fall out soon). Collectors have lost millions between them, I know some individuals who have lost tens to hundreds of thousands and been left with worthless doorstops. We all know the galleries involved and I'm quite happy to call this out as criminal because I know what's gone on, seriously people should go to jail for this shit. In the background there's some seriously rich fucking scum bags involved, total shits with billions whose names begin with N. Personally I fucked some of these clowns when they were still in the pump phase of one of their many schemes, and made them buy their worthless doorstops back off me at auction 1 month later, for twice the price plus pay a fuck tonne of auction fees, cost them at least hundred grand plus. Felt great TBH but in realty they've schemed tens of millions doing this shit, so drop in the ocean (some of the backers have made billions over decades of doing this crooked shit). But guys serious lesson, do not give auction results too much weight especially with emerging artists, people on here obsess over auction results and treat them as gospel. I know all the shit that goes on, from shill schemes like this, to buyers bidding up works with sock puppet accounts and then defaulting (will still show as a sale). Conversely bad results don't tell the full story either, most sales go on in private and an artists private sale market can at times behave very differently to their auction sales (in fact it's this reason these schemes exist). But it comes back to the age old lesson if it's too good to be true it probably is. Likelihood is if you're getting offered works at 25% below (crazily inflated) auction prices from an artist that's come from nowhere, with a 2 year no resale you're being scammed. If you have the balls and contacts at the auction houses you can always stick it to the thieves by wiping your ass with their no resale agreement and selling it in next auction, likelihood is that if they're invested they'll have to buy it for way more money to keep the ponzy scheme alive, not without risks this. Best advice is avoid and buy artists with proper track records through established reputable galleries, if you want emerging buy cheap and ideally direct from studio. You 100% right on this, gallery like madox, Waterhouse & Dodd etc and few auctions house are in all of this. you can big in auction to 200k and never paid and nothing will happened… those scammer ask you to signed 2/3 year not reselling contract and in this time is when they making the money, when you time is coming to sale the price is worth 80% lest than what I bought.
Just one of several investment pump and dumps which have been massive frauds. Willem, McCormick, Babaar, Ismail to name a few (some of these are still in the pump but ass will fall out soon). Collectors have lost millions between them, I know some individuals who have lost tens to hundreds of thousands and been left with worthless doorstops. We all know the galleries involved and I'm quite happy to call this out as criminal because I know what's gone on, seriously people should go to jail for this shit. In the background there's some seriously rich fucking scum bags involved, total shits with billions whose names begin with N. Personally I fucked some of these clowns when they were still in the pump phase of one of their many schemes, and made them buy their worthless doorstops back off me at auction 1 month later, for twice the price plus pay a fuck tonne of auction fees, cost them at least hundred grand plus. Felt great TBH but in realty they've schemed tens of millions doing this shit, so drop in the ocean (some of the backers have made billions over decades of doing this crooked shit). But guys serious lesson, do not give auction results too much weight especially with emerging artists, people on here obsess over auction results and treat them as gospel. I know all the shit that goes on, from shill schemes like this, to buyers bidding up works with sock puppet accounts and then defaulting (will still show as a sale). Conversely bad results don't tell the full story either, most sales go on in private and an artists private sale market can at times behave very differently to their auction sales (in fact it's this reason these schemes exist). But it comes back to the age old lesson if it's too good to be true it probably is. Likelihood is if you're getting offered works at 25% below (crazily inflated) auction prices from an artist that's come from nowhere, with a 2 year no resale you're being scammed. If you have the balls and contacts at the auction houses you can always stick it to the thieves by wiping your ass with their no resale agreement and selling it in next auction, likelihood is that if they're invested they'll have to buy it for way more money to keep the ponzy scheme alive, not without risks this. Best advice is avoid and buy artists with proper track records through established reputable galleries, if you want emerging buy cheap and ideally direct from studio. You 100% right on this, gallery like madox, Waterhouse & Dodd etc and few auctions house are in all of this. you can big in auction to 200k and never paid and nothing will happened… those scammer ask you to signed 2/3 year not reselling contract and in this time is when they making the money, when you time is coming to sale the price is worth 80% lest than what I bought. I’m not naming names of galleries but if people have some spare time, take a look at an artist called Raghav Babaar, he only just did his masters a year ago and his works are going for $500k at auction. Look at who is behind him and follow the bread crumbs and names will start popping up, galleries and individuals. Do the same with some of the other artists, and you’ll start seeing links. Basically there’s lots of data publicly that if you start to put together starts telling a big part of the story. |
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Albert willem prices?, by Terry Fuckwitt on Apr 20, 2024 12:09:48 GMT 1, I must be very naive, as I had no idea this went on with small lesser known artists on this sort of scale.
I don't understand how or where they begin the manipulation and hype though. Is it through forums like this?
To get the artworks into Christies or Sothebys in the first place can't be easy, without having solid evidence of high secondary market sales
I must be very naive, as I had no idea this went on with small lesser known artists on this sort of scale.
I don't understand how or where they begin the manipulation and hype though. Is it through forums like this?
To get the artworks into Christies or Sothebys in the first place can't be easy, without having solid evidence of high secondary market sales
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LJCal
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December 2019
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Albert willem prices?, by LJCal on Apr 20, 2024 12:16:58 GMT 1, I'm just super interested by the mechanics of this. So talking hard data, I've plotted all the auction results on Artsy since he first appeared in May 2022 until today. There's 51 results with prices - three of these were brought in (Nov 2022, Mar 2023 and Mar 2024) and in total there were US$4,859,655 of sales with fees. A few of these were less than 20k aside from the recent one, including in Mar 2023 and two in Dec 2023. So what's the play here? Are all $5m in sales by the syndicate or only a bunch of them? And are they just selling to themselves, unless third parties jump in (so the only loss is auction fees)? Are the low results where the syndicate decided to let market forces set price / they weren't sales initiated by them? I know eg the Warhol market is controlled by effectively 5 players who have a syndicate to ensure his prices meet a certain threshold (including buying in underperforming works), but just intrigued how a pump and dump works with emerging ones.
I'm just super interested by the mechanics of this. So talking hard data, I've plotted all the auction results on Artsy since he first appeared in May 2022 until today. There's 51 results with prices - three of these were brought in (Nov 2022, Mar 2023 and Mar 2024) and in total there were US$4,859,655 of sales with fees. A few of these were less than 20k aside from the recent one, including in Mar 2023 and two in Dec 2023. So what's the play here? Are all $5m in sales by the syndicate or only a bunch of them? And are they just selling to themselves, unless third parties jump in (so the only loss is auction fees)? Are the low results where the syndicate decided to let market forces set price / they weren't sales initiated by them? I know eg the Warhol market is controlled by effectively 5 players who have a syndicate to ensure his prices meet a certain threshold (including buying in underperforming works), but just intrigued how a pump and dump works with emerging ones. What goes on with larger blue chip artists is not quite the same, yes there are whales or major primary galleries who will support their works at auction but it’s not a big criminal conspiracy, it’s more like a big company doing share buy backs. I’m not saying certain big collectors don’t seek to manipulate but it’s much harder given the supply is all over the place and the size of the market is much bigger. If an artist has been in the game decades, hit big career mile stones and has seen a few ups and down it’s safer to assume it’s not a pump and dump, most pump and dumps have a 2-3 year timeline and then it’s curtains for the artist’s market |
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LJCal
Junior Member
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December 2019
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Albert willem prices?, by LJCal on Apr 20, 2024 12:23:03 GMT 1, I must be very naive, as I had no idea this went on with small lesser known artists on this sort of scale. I don't understand how or where they begin the manipulation and hype though. Is it through forums like this? To get the artworks into Christies or Sothebys in the first place can't be easy, without having solid evidence of high secondary market sales
I must be very naive, as I had no idea this went on with small lesser known artists on this sort of scale. I don't understand how or where they begin the manipulation and hype though. Is it through forums like this? To get the artworks into Christies or Sothebys in the first place can't be easy, without having solid evidence of high secondary market sales Through boiler room investment galleries with large mailing lists of wealthy collectors. If you’re a whale who puts millions through the auction houses a year getting them to test out an emerging artist at an online sale is relatively easy. For example, hey young auction house associate here is a really nice Richter work on paper, a Gormley sculpture, oh and I’ve just bought into this really interesting young artist, can you you try him/her at an emerging sale at low estimate? Me and my buddies have been buying into them. |
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Albert willem prices?, by Terry Fuckwitt on Apr 20, 2024 12:34:47 GMT 1, I must be very naive, as I had no idea this went on with small lesser known artists on this sort of scale. I don't understand how or where they begin the manipulation and hype though. Is it through forums like this? To get the artworks into Christies or Sothebys in the first place can't be easy, without having solid evidence of high secondary market sales Through boiler room investment galleries with large mailing lists of wealthy collectors. If you’re a whole who puts millions through the auction houses a year getting them to test out an emerging artist at an online sale is relatively easy. For example, hey young associate here is a really nice Richter work on paper, a Gormley sculpture, oh and I’ve just bought into this really interesting young artist, can you you try him/her at an emerging sale at low estimate? Me and my buddies have been buying into them.
So there we go kids... Always remember buy art you like and not what Maddox likes
I must be very naive, as I had no idea this went on with small lesser known artists on this sort of scale. I don't understand how or where they begin the manipulation and hype though. Is it through forums like this? To get the artworks into Christies or Sothebys in the first place can't be easy, without having solid evidence of high secondary market sales Through boiler room investment galleries with large mailing lists of wealthy collectors. If you’re a whole who puts millions through the auction houses a year getting them to test out an emerging artist at an online sale is relatively easy. For example, hey young associate here is a really nice Richter work on paper, a Gormley sculpture, oh and I’ve just bought into this really interesting young artist, can you you try him/her at an emerging sale at low estimate? Me and my buddies have been buying into them. I see, all makes sense. So there we go kids... Always remember buy art you like and not what Maddox likes |
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kjg
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December 2014
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Albert willem prices?, by kjg on Apr 20, 2024 12:43:08 GMT 1, Now I am really curious about the amount of members on here that bought Willlem’s artworks.
Now I am really curious about the amount of members on here that bought Willlem’s artworks.
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drip
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February 2015
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Albert willem prices?, by drip on Apr 20, 2024 12:53:32 GMT 1, Well you're allowed to actually like Albert Willem, and to buy his work. The problem only arises if you, a) bought solely for investment, or, b) you ended up overpaying because The Syndicate had inflated prices when you bought.
I have no doubt that all the artists boosted by this shadowy scheme have genuine fans.
Well you're allowed to actually like Albert Willem, and to buy his work. The problem only arises if you, a) bought solely for investment, or, b) you ended up overpaying because The Syndicate had inflated prices when you bought.
I have no doubt that all the artists boosted by this shadowy scheme have genuine fans.
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drip
Junior Member
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February 2015
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Albert willem prices?, by drip on Apr 20, 2024 13:13:09 GMT 1, You 100% right on this, gallery like madox, Waterhouse & Dodd etc and few auctions house are in all of this. you can big in auction to 200k and never paid and nothing will happened… those scammer ask you to signed 2/3 year not reselling contract and in this time is when they making the money, when you time is coming to sale the price is worth 80% lest than what I bought. I’m not naming names of galleries but if people have some spare time, take a look at an artist called Raghav Babaar, he only just did his masters a year ago and his works are going for $500k at auction. Look at who is behind him and follow the bread crumbs and names will start popping up, galleries and individuals. Do the same with some of the other artists, and you’ll start seeing links. Basically there’s lots of data publicly that if you start to put together starts telling a big part of the story.
You 100% right on this, gallery like madox, Waterhouse & Dodd etc and few auctions house are in all of this. you can big in auction to 200k and never paid and nothing will happened… those scammer ask you to signed 2/3 year not reselling contract and in this time is when they making the money, when you time is coming to sale the price is worth 80% lest than what I bought. I’m not naming names of galleries but if people have some spare time, take a look at an artist called Raghav Babaar, he only just did his masters a year ago and his works are going for $500k at auction. Look at who is behind him and follow the bread crumbs and names will start popping up, galleries and individuals. Do the same with some of the other artists, and you’ll start seeing links. Basically there’s lots of data publicly that if you start to put together starts telling a big part of the story. Man, I haven't seen an estimate that wrong since those conservatory fitters did that quote for the HS2 line. |
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Albert willem prices?, by Acme Thunderer on Apr 20, 2024 13:41:44 GMT 1, I’m not naming names of galleries but if people have some spare time, take a look at an artist called Raghav Babaar, he only just did his masters a year ago and his works are going for $500k at auction. Look at who is behind him and follow the bread crumbs and names will start popping up, galleries and individuals. Do the same with some of the other artists, and you’ll start seeing links. Basically there’s lots of data publicly that if you start to put together starts telling a big part of the story. Man, I haven't seen an estimate that wrong since those conservatory fitters did that quote for the HS2 line.
I’m not naming names of galleries but if people have some spare time, take a look at an artist called Raghav Babaar, he only just did his masters a year ago and his works are going for $500k at auction. Look at who is behind him and follow the bread crumbs and names will start popping up, galleries and individuals. Do the same with some of the other artists, and you’ll start seeing links. Basically there’s lots of data publicly that if you start to put together starts telling a big part of the story. Man, I haven't seen an estimate that wrong since those conservatory fitters did that quote for the HS2 line. How cute that they must be sharing the same web designer.
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Icecream Man
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November 2019
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Albert willem prices?, by Icecream Man on Apr 20, 2024 13:45:27 GMT 1, Now I am really curious about the amount of members on here that bought Willlem’s artworks.
Now I am really curious about the amount of members on here that bought Willlem’s artworks. I purchased directly from Albert in 2021. €250. |
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LJCal
Junior Member
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December 2019
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Albert willem prices?, by LJCal on Apr 20, 2024 13:56:08 GMT 1, Man, I haven't seen an estimate that wrong since those conservatory fitters did that quote for the HS2 line. How cute that they must be sharing the same web designer.
Man, I haven't seen an estimate that wrong since those conservatory fitters did that quote for the HS2 line. How cute that they must be sharing the same web designer.
It gets more interesting if you start looking at who is behind some of the galleries representing these people. Guys named for fraud and money laundering in the panama papers, members of the family sent to jail for fraud, but still billionaires. |
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