[LJCal]

Apr 21, 2024 9:11:44 GMT 1 klaus69 said:

Apr 20, 2024 2:37:33 GMT 1 LJCal said:

Just one of several investment pump and dumps which have been massive frauds. Willem, McCormick, Babaar, Ismail to name a few (some of these are still in the pump but ass will fall out soon). 

Here is the last auction result of Ismail. Someone paid a lot of money for this not so long ago: www.phillips.com/detail/isshaq-ismail/UK010324/130

I know, this is the same size sold 3 years back. Fucking shameless. Check provenance on some of these Ismail pieces.

www.sothebys.com/en/buy/auction/2021/contemporary-art-day-auction-5/head-13

50 gif

[klaus69]

Look at the auction results over the last years of Ismail - you can see when the pump and when the dump starts
ibb.co/PT5Qxxs
ibb.co/BVP5KBg
ibb.co/MNM56z8
ibb.co/61q8gGH
ibb.co/CtHYmNg

[Jimini Cricket]

Surely there is a part of the speculator's brain that says, 'Thats a bit shite, innit?'
But if all they see are dollar signs, then they deserve to get rinsed.

[LJCal]

If anyone on here has been done by some of these investment galleries, I’d recommend getting a lawyer involved and threaten them with a county court claim, reporting the company to trading standards, and involving the press. I would also threaten to report company and its directors to Police and SFO, the numbers run into the tens of millions and involve numerous high profile galleries and auction houses so if you can put together a coherent complaint they will absolutely investigate. You need to act quickly, undoubtably the companies they are trading in will be folded and the gains moved off shore in the not too distant future, I expect a whole load of people will also come forward now the shit is really hitting the fan and demand refunds. If you get in early you may be able to get some of your money back.

[LJCal]

Apr 21, 2024 12:08:52 GMT 1 Jimini Cricket said:

Surely there is a part of the speculator's brain that says, 'Thats a bit shite, innit?'
But if all they see are dollar signs, then they deserve to get rinsed.

Yeah his art is garbage and Willems imo, but there’s been a few others that could plausibly have a career. I don’t think anyone deserves to get screwed over like this, even if they’re wealthy. Businesses should have some basic standards and if scheme like this are allowed to run it just makes business much harder for everybody. It’s one thing to drive a hard bargain or trade on legitimately gained knowledge and come out the other side a big winner, that’s being sharp, it’s totally another to deceive people even if it’s a greed trap. 

[Jimini Cricket]

Apr 21, 2024 12:12:19 GMT 1 LJCal said:

If anyone on here has been done by some of these investment galleries, I’d recommend getting a lawyer involved and threaten them with a county court claim, reporting the company to trading standards, and involving the press. I would also threaten to report company and its directors to Police and SFO, the numbers run into the tens of millions and involve numerous high profile galleries and auction houses so if you can put together a coherent complaint they will absolutely investigate. You need to act quickly, undoubtably the companies they are trading in will be folded and the gains moved off shore in the not too distant future, I expect a whole load of people will also come forward now the shit is really hitting the fan and demand refunds. If you get in early you may be able to get some of your money back.

Hard to prove any crime has been committed. Buyers received what they paid for. Just as difficult to enforce multi year non-resale agreements. Caveat emptor.

[Jimini Cricket]

Apr 21, 2024 12:18:25 GMT 1 LJCal said:

Apr 21, 2024 12:08:52 GMT 1 Jimini Cricket said:

Surely there is a part of the speculator's brain that says, 'Thats a bit shite, innit?'
But if all they see are dollar signs, then they deserve to get rinsed.

Yeah his art is garbage and Willems imo, but there’s been a few others that could plausibly have a career. I don’t think anyone deserves to get screwed over like this, even if they’re wealthy. Businesses should have some basic standards and if scheme like this are allowed to run it just makes business much harder for everybody. It’s one thing to drive a hard bargain or trade on legitimately gained knowledge and come out the other side a big winner, that’s being sharp, it’s totally another to deceive people even if it’s a greed trap. 

At what point does it become the individual's responsibility? There is risk in all sorts of markets, even ones with information assymetry. 

[LJCal]

Apr 21, 2024 12:19:52 GMT 1 Jimini Cricket said:

Apr 21, 2024 12:12:19 GMT 1 LJCal said:

If anyone on here has been done by some of these investment galleries, I’d recommend getting a lawyer involved and threaten them with a county court claim, reporting the company to trading standards, and involving the press. I would also threaten to report company and its directors to Police and SFO, the numbers run into the tens of millions and involve numerous high profile galleries and auction houses so if you can put together a coherent complaint they will absolutely investigate. You need to act quickly, undoubtably the companies they are trading in will be folded and the gains moved off shore in the not too distant future, I expect a whole load of people will also come forward now the shit is really hitting the fan and demand refunds. If you get in early you may be able to get some of your money back.

Hard to prove any crime has been committed. Buyers received what they paid for. Just as difficult to enforce multi year non-resale agreements. Caveat emptor.

respectfully you don't know what you're talking about. Subpoenaing the auction houses and galleries and developing links that show shill bidding would be pretty straightforward, that's well within the powers of the SFO and Police. 

[LJCal]

Apr 21, 2024 12:23:15 GMT 1 Jimini Cricket said:

Apr 21, 2024 12:18:25 GMT 1 LJCal said:

Yeah his art is garbage and Willems imo, but there’s been a few others that could plausibly have a career. I don’t think anyone deserves to get screwed over like this, even if they’re wealthy. Businesses should have some basic standards and if scheme like this are allowed to run it just makes business much harder for everybody. It’s one thing to drive a hard bargain or trade on legitimately gained knowledge and come out the other side a big winner, that’s being sharp, it’s totally another to deceive people even if it’s a greed trap. 

At what point does it become the individual's responsibility? There is risk in all sorts of markets, even ones with information assymetry. 

The point is when deception is used to make something appear more valuable that it is, that's fraud pure and simple. They could prosecute those involved under the Business Protection from Misleading Marketing Regulations and the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008. They prosecuted this poor scmuck for bidding up a few ebay listings by a few grand:
www.theguardian.com/technology/2010/apr/20/ebay-seller-convicted-auction-fixing

[Minecrafter]

Apr 21, 2024 12:48:16 GMT 1 LJCal said:

Apr 21, 2024 12:23:15 GMT 1 Jimini Cricket said:

At what point does it become the individual's responsibility? There is risk in all sorts of markets, even ones with information assymetry. 

The point is when deception is used to make something appear more valuable that it is, that's fraud pure and simple. They could prosecute those involved under the Business Protection from Misleading Marketing Regulations and the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008. They prosecuted this poor scmuck for bidding up a few ebay listings by a few grand:
www.theguardian.com/technology/2010/apr/20/ebay-seller-convicted-auction-fixing

Kind of like Banksy then lance 

[LJCal]

Apr 21, 2024 13:38:14 GMT 1 Minecrafter said:

Apr 21, 2024 12:48:16 GMT 1 LJCal said:

The point is when deception is used to make something appear more valuable that it is, that's fraud pure and simple. They could prosecute those involved under the Business Protection from Misleading Marketing Regulations and the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008. They prosecuted this poor scmuck for bidding up a few ebay listings by a few grand:
www.theguardian.com/technology/2010/apr/20/ebay-seller-convicted-auction-fixing

Kind of like Banksy then lance 

Who lost money from the so called dategate then? The buyer who sold it for about 10X what they paid? As I've said before if you believe a fraud has been committed you should report it to the police, given you're not a victim or even know of a victim you'll likely struggle to get them to do anything. In fact Jamie didn't you say Banksy saved your life? Don't sound like a victim to me....
www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/banksy-saved-life---graffiti-5064543

[met]

Apr 20, 2024 21:18:00 GMT 1 compound said:

I called this in 2022

urbanartassociation.com/post/2184232/thread

Nicely done, compound.



It may be helpful to spell things out a little more fully.

Thread excerpt below, but the entire thread could be viewed as a parable.

And almost a parody, because it's such a cliché:

Jul 8, 2022 18:10:07 GMT 1 compound said:

Jul 8, 2022 16:19:49 GMT 1 Patrick 01 said:

Jul 8, 2022 10:41:23 GMT 1 compound said:

Fika, willem, ismail

Don’t get caught up in the shills. Buy up cheap artists, shill them to high heaven and dump. Same bidders over and over again

You can always rely on reading the same old negative drivel on here when an artist’s market takes off. His auction results have been extremely strong..it happens!

Let’s review this in 2 years shall we? Also, keep an eye on Emerging Artist auctions and play guess the shilled

Your cautionary heads-up was perhaps less interesting than the damage-limitation effort to shut it down.


On the one side, the critical thinker, the independent who, seeing cause for concern, chooses to step up by ringing the alarm bell (thereby knowingly also exposing themselves as a potential target for attack):

"Hey, he's not wearing any clothes!"


On the other side, those who already bought in, now holding stock they're looking to offload onto other forum members for a nice profit. And goddamnit, they'll protect their interests by whatever tactics necessary:

"Hush, silly boy, with your negative drivel. Always the same with the likes of you. You know not of what you speak. His new clothes are magnificent!"


__________


Query if the informed and rational whistleblowers should be listened to (the UAA Frances Haugens or Erika Cheungs among us).

Or should they instead be disparaged, to discourage both them and others from posting inconvenient comments that might harm the financial value of artworks we're looking to dump in the near or distant future?


__________


When deciding upon the weight to attribute to different viewpoints expressed on this message board, it's worth considering the previous form and apparent motives of each author.

Those motives may even be transparent, e.g. altruistic in nature, or to hype/safeguard the author's own investments.

The simple question to ask is, Who benefits?



Separately, if any member wants a reasonably-good shorthand way of judging somebody's character, pay attention to how they react to criticism.

Whether it's criticism against them, or against the things they might have a vested interest in.

[Jimini Cricket]

Apr 21, 2024 12:45:07 GMT 1 LJCal said:

Apr 21, 2024 12:19:52 GMT 1 Jimini Cricket said:

Hard to prove any crime has been committed. Buyers received what they paid for. Just as difficult to enforce multi year non-resale agreements. Caveat emptor.

respectfully you don't know what you're talking about. Subpoenaing the auction houses and galleries and developing links that show shill bidding would be pretty straightforward, that's well within the powers of the SFO and Police. 

 Well if it's serious enough, let's see if the SFO and police do anything then.

[Minecrafter]

Apr 21, 2024 14:15:04 GMT 1 LJCal said:

Apr 21, 2024 13:38:14 GMT 1 Minecrafter said:

Kind of like Banksy then lance 

Who lost money from the so called dategate then? The buyer who sold it for about 10X what they paid? As I've said before if you believe a fraud has been committed you should report it to the police, given you're not a victim or even know of a victim you'll likely struggle to get them to do anything. In fact Jamie didn't you say Banksy saved your life? Don't sound like a victim to me....
www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/banksy-saved-life---graffiti-5064543

Jamie said that in 2015 - yet 2016 Banksy is getting Insect to have 25k funding removed from him.
A lot changed since 2015 including the truth about banksy coming out and what a piece he really is. 

[LJCal]

Apr 21, 2024 15:13:11 GMT 1 Jimini Cricket said:

Apr 21, 2024 12:45:07 GMT 1 LJCal said:

respectfully you don't know what you're talking about. Subpoenaing the auction houses and galleries and developing links that show shill bidding would be pretty straightforward, that's well within the powers of the SFO and Police. 

 Well if it's serious enough, let's see if the SFO and police do anything then.

TBF if I was a betting based on the state of most public services, the CPS and judiciary probably nothing. They’d soon go after some poor turnip thief on eBay who basically doesn’t stand a chance than take on proper rich crooks 

[from mjolnir]

All eyes on this www.phillips.com/detail/albert-willem/UK090124/39

[from mjolnir]

Apr 23, 2024 9:37:12 GMT 1 from mjolnir said:

All eyes on this www.phillips.com/detail/albert-willem/UK090124/39

And it went unsold ...

[Devizes /\_/\]

Apr 24, 2024 17:21:59 GMT 1 from mjolnir said:

Apr 23, 2024 9:37:12 GMT 1 from mjolnir said:

All eyes on this www.phillips.com/detail/albert-willem/UK090124/39

And it went unsold ...

Wow 🙈

[cemltz]

Wheels are coming off of this one pretty quickly...

[LJCal]

These were being sold by the studio for about £1000 a few years back. Within a few months ‘investment’ galleries were selling them for £35,000+VAT whilst selling at auction for £200,000. Basically is there absolutely any reason the 150cm x 110cm works are worth more than a few grand? Who would pay more than say £5k for one now?

[emurugne]

I actually bought a Willem's painting to Maddox end of 2023 for £50k...what do you suggest to do ? are they any other buyer in my situation ? maybe we can file a group complain ?

[kfroms]

Oct 23, 2024 7:23:02 GMT 1 emurugne said:

I actually bought a Willem's painting to Maddox end of 2023 for £50k...what do you suggest to do ? are they any other buyer in my situation ? maybe we can file a group complain ?

What do you want to achieve with a 'group complain'?
Legally there is very little, if anything, to argue here.

[Art Attackkk]

I think you have to just put it down as experience and don’t fall for hype especially for a new unknown artist. You were happy to pay that price, so I agree there isn’t really anything legally that can be done. I do actually like some of his paintings, so you should just use this as a lesson learnt and enjoy the work on your wall. Maybe in time the prices will pick up when the dust settles?

[drip]

Oct 23, 2024 7:23:02 GMT 1 emurugne said:

I actually bought a Willem's painting to Maddox end of 2023 for £50k...what do you suggest to do ? are they any other buyer in my situation ? maybe we can file a group complain ?

Intriguing.

So.....if you don't mind me asking, how did this all go down? How did you discover the work of Albert Willem and what were you told at the time you bought?

I mean, if there *is* a conspiracy to manipulate the art market of randomly selected paint smearers, so a gallery can sell works at artificially inflated prices to buyers under the impression they're buying the next big thing, you are best placed to warn others and expose the shady goings on.

But there is an argument that you got what you paid for. The shenanigans were elsewhere, at the auction room. But it depends on what was said to you at the time of purchase. 

[drip]

Oct 23, 2024 10:03:07 GMT 1 apprint said:

Oct 23, 2024 7:23:02 GMT 1 emurugne said:

I actually bought a Willem's painting to Maddox end of 2023 for £50k...what do you suggest to do ? are they any other buyer in my situation ? maybe we can file a group complain ?

Me 
I going to PM

any one with the other artist like 
Issac Ismail ??

Did you buy Willem AND Ismail?

If you guys feel like you've been scammed, by buying Willem, Ismail, etc, then put yourself and your feelings right now, in the place of all the future potential buyers, and spare them what you're going through. Reveal the gallery, galleries, or agents involved, what was said to you before and at the time of purchase, and let others be more aware.

Doing all this behind closed doors, with a group complain, no matter how sternly worded, does not help future victims of this scam, and those behind it will just keep doing it again and again. Shine a light on these fuckers.

[artearte]

vm.tiktok.com/ZGdRyCvBd/

[compound]

I paid £250 for my one. I feel duped;)

[astbury]

Just had a look around, surprisingly little for sale and the galleries that represent him Maddox, Galerie Boulakia still show as they sell his works. Did he sell and prints or were they all top end priced original works?

[18921892]

Oct 23, 2024 7:23:02 GMT 1 emurugne said:

I actually bought a Willem's painting to Maddox end of 2023 for £50k...what do you suggest to do ? are they any other buyer in my situation ? maybe we can file a group complain ?

Some may say you got a good deal after viewing this pdf.

[Acme Thunderer]

Oct 23, 2024 10:58:39 GMT 1 18921892 said:

Oct 23, 2024 7:23:02 GMT 1 emurugne said:

I actually bought a Willem's painting to Maddox end of 2023 for £50k...what do you suggest to do ? are they any other buyer in my situation ? maybe we can file a group complain ?

Some may say you got a good deal after viewing this pdf.

Good to see they invested in a glossy brochure.