[pjotr101]

foundation said:

The whole idea of providence and COAs are going to become a much greater issue in the next while, as banksy become more popular, his work is going to be coppied and forged accordingly.

Providence is so hard to come by these days...

[punkdaisy]

Providence is so hard to come by these days...[/quote]

Providence is easily accessible by plane, trains and automobiles (and even buses). The local airport is called TF Green, which is serviced by American, United, SouthWest, Delta, Northwest, and more. From the airport, you can take a shuttle, taxi, or bus into downtown
As for taking the bus, Bonanza Bus offers regular service into Providence from Boston and New York City. If you are flying into Logan Airport in Boston, you can also take Bonanza Bus from there to get to Providence.

[pjotr101]

or if you can't be bothered with all of that:

www.imdb.com/title/tt0177991/

[pjotr101]

even though taking the Bonanza Bus does sound like lots of fun

[numusic]

punkdaisy said:

[

Fraid so, Picasso prints from house sales come up on ebay everyday for 2 to 500 dollars.. no C.O.A = worthless...nice to show your mates, but try selling one on for a normal list price and you'd get laughed out the auction house.

Ridiculous. You take an authentic Picasso to Sotheby's or Christies they are not going to laugh at you because you have no c.o.a.

Not true.. Picasso's have to be authenticated by the family otherwise listed as attributed too

[foundation]

Maybe i should have used the word provenance instead, either way you knew what i ment when you thought you were winning the point.

[numusic]

foundation said:

Maybe i should have used the word provenance instead, either way you knew what i ment when you thought you were winning the point.

we've been punked ;D, but spot on with all your points !

[Daniel Silk]

punkdaisy said:

Providence is so hard to come by these days...

Providence is easily accessible by plane, trains and automobiles (and even buses). The local airport is called TF Green, which is serviced by American, United, SouthWest, Delta, Northwest, and more. From the airport, you can take a shuttle, taxi, or bus into downtown
As for taking the bus, Bonanza Bus offers regular service into Providence from Boston and New York City. If you are flying into Logan Airport in Boston, you can also take Bonanza Bus from there to get to Providence.
[/quote]

Haaaa! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Great Stuff PunkDaisy

[foundation]

Fair enough, but how many back door prints ( unsigned and unnumbered, to clarify) have you invested in banksyofengland? you seem to have been quite picky with what you have bought and sold, all good stuff and history readily provided.

[punkdaisy]

Foundation the point isn't about investing in them. Someone stated that they had a print that wasn't numbered and was wondering if, because it didn't have a number it was genuine. I explained that the lack of a number didn't prevent a print from being genuine. It then progressed to people claiming that an un-numbered prints were not genuine and worthless. Which again is in correct, there were claims that a print needed a c.o.a to be genuine, which again is stupid, there are thousands of fake items sold on ebay everyday with 'genuine' c.o.a.'s. If POW were to issue c.o.a's with each print there would be nothing to stop anyone from taking the c.o.a from a genuine print and selling it with a fake one. It doesn't then make the fake print a genuine one because it comes with a genuine pow c.o.a. And likewise a genuine print doesn't become a fake one because it doesn't have a number or a c.o.a. If you are buying Banksy's for investment then it is unlikely that anyone would invest in a un-numbered un-signed print unless of course it was a one off colour variation or trial variation. However if you just want a genuine Banksy on your wall without any thoughts to value or investment, then there is no reason not to buy a print just because it doesn't have a number. The lack of a number does not in itself render the print fake or indeed worthless.

[foundation]

We will agree to disagree on this one punk, If i am spending several hundred quid on a piece of paper i would like to be as sure as possible that its a genuine print rather than a cheap unverified knockoff.

[Daniel Silk]

foundation said:

Fair enough, but how many back door prints ( unsigned and unnumbered, to clarify) have you invested in banksyofengland? you seem to have been quite picky with what you have bought and sold, all good stuff and history readily provided.

Oh yeah, but if a back door Rude Copper or Queen Vic came up on ebay with no number for £100 I would snap it up ;D
I like the picture and it would stay framed on my wall for the rest of my life, so I would not need to worry about the resale price ;D

[stencilope]

^{Oh yeah, but if a back door Rude Copper or Queen Vic came up on ebay with no number for £100 I would snap it up ;D
I like the picture and it would stay framed on my wall for the rest of my life, so I would not need to worry about the resale price ;D}

I would agree. I want them for the art as well. If anyone has some 'backdoor' prints to sell or swap toward authentic ones, I would be interested, too.
Probably a BAD idea to have them pop up on Ebay, though. Not many have - and haven't sold for much when they did - but if the unsigned/unnumbered/unstamped prints started pulling 100 quid we would see a CRAPLOAD of fake ones out there really fast.

[Daniel Silk]

stencilope said:

^{Oh yeah, but if a back door Rude Copper or Queen Vic came up on ebay with no number for £100 I would snap it up ;D
I like the picture and it would stay framed on my wall for the rest of my life, so I would not need to worry about the resale price ;D}

I would agree. I want them for the art as well. If anyone has some 'backdoor' prints to sell or swap toward authentic ones, I would be interested, too.
Probably a BAD idea to have them pop up on Ebay, though. Not many have - and haven't sold for much when they did - but if the unsigned/unnumbered/unstamped prints started pulling 100 quid we would see a CRAPLOAD of fake ones out there really fast.

Yeah, I agree they are only worth a fiver each ;D Contact me or Stencilope if you have any to sell

[foundation]

My point is that if an unsigned unnumbered one came up for 500 quid you wouldn't be too keen on picking it up then, where as a signed one for 500 quid would be snapped up in seconds. Punkdaisy, says its not about the investment, if you really believe its all about the art then you are fooling yourself, go and buy the £10 replicas being punted on ebay and leave the real prints to the folk that want them.

[punkdaisy]

foundation said:

My point is that if an unsigned unnumbered one came up for 500 quid you wouldn't be too keen on picking it up then, where as a signed one for 500 quid would be snapped up in seconds. Punkdaisy, says its not about the investment, if you really believe its all about the art then you are fooling yourself, go and buy the £10 replicas being punted on ebay and leave the real prints to the folk that want them.

Foundation.
I think you have missed the whole point of the discussion.

[foundation]

Fair enough, what i have seen of it so far, you dont mind not knowing how genuine your prints are, i prefer to know. If this is wrong, please let me know where i have lost the thread and set me straight. Thanks

[punkdaisy]

foundation said:

Fair enough, what i have seen of it so far, you dont mind not knowing how genuine your prints are, i prefer to know. If this is wrong, please let me know where i have lost the thread and set me straight. Thanks

Jesus foundation, its like banging my head against the wall. Where on earth did you get that from. At the start I advised someone that just because their print doesn't have a number it does not necessarily mean that it is not genuine. If you deduce from this that I do not mind knowing how genuine my prints are then so be it.

[wezzley]

punk daisy, how about a serious answer to the question about the source of the un-numbered prints on your site? Seems this whole issue is close to home for you

[foundation]

As i said before, agree to disagree, the fact that a print is totally unverifiable makes it a fake in my book but not yours, thats just a different opinion. I am not talking about your signed but unnumbered ones that someone mentioned you had, but fully blank prints taken from printers etc... such as the green WSM that float about from time to time. I like the assurance of numbers / verification.

[numusic]

foundation said:

As i said before, agree to disagree, the fact that a print is totally unverifiable makes it a fake in my book but not yours, thats just a different opinion. I am not talking about your signed but unnumbered ones that someone mentioned you had, but fully blank prints taken from printers etc... such as the green WSM that float about from time to time. I like the assurance of numbers / verification.

Rule of thumb : any and all prints without a) numbering b) an interesting verifiable story such as the 'Banksy envelope' listed earlier.. is dodge !!! Illegal, fraud, scam,...backdoor print shop knockoffs, should be sold for no more 50 quid and listed as DODGE in big letters across the back..

[foundation]

Numusic, i dont think you are allowed to say that, i have been saying it for 2 days, but people say that these knockoffs are fine, so we must be wrong.

[numusic]

foundation said:

Numusic, i dont think you are allowed to say that, i have been saying it for 2 days, but people say that these knockoffs are fine, so we must be wrong.

yeah I read through the thread, and like all bad wool the thread seems to have become twisted along the way...the only people who could justify this (and even then not condone it), would be skint Banksy lovers who picked one up cheap down the pub for 50 quid cos they want it the wall. But if it's about justifying buying one from a commercial source at gallery prices or the value in general and the artistic 'Warholian Factory' argument, then the argument falls flat on it's arse.

Don't see how this can even be open for discussion, seems so full on obvious !

[foundation]

You would think so, i did til yesterday.

[punkdaisy]

foundation said:

Numusic, i dont think you are allowed to say that, i have been saying it for 2 days, but people say that these knockoffs are fine, so we must be wrong.

Of course Numusic can say that, if you go back to the very beginning foundation you will see that I said that you cannot dismiss a print as being a fake just because it has no number, you have to take into account other factors, for example are you going to say that a trial colour say a jack and jill with a yellow background that was printed off, not numbered and given by Banksy to someone is a fake just because it has no number.
If people are going to be producing fakes then they are more likely to be producing faked numbered prints and quite easily with verification, there is nothing to stop somebody adding a receipt for a genuine print to a fake print.
My point is that you cannot dismiss a print as being genuine or not just because it has a number or not. The value of an un-numbered is dependant on the story of its existence. Just because a print is not numbered does not make it totally unverifiable.

[guerillaart]

Just because a print isn't signed or numbered doesn't make it a fake, a fake would be a print NOT printed by Pictures On Walls and with a forged signature and a duplicate number added. Like somebody mentioned earlier why fake a print and then not sign or number it? An authentic un-numbered or un-signed print from Pictures On Walls is not worthless, it's simply not worth as much as the official print run, it is in fact worth whatever somebody is willing to pay!

With regards to provenance you're all getting a bit ahead of yourselves, seems as if you've bought a couple of prints (Foundation) and are now art dealers. If people who buy and sell things for a living (art dealers, antique dealers, etc, etc) always relied on an item coming with written authentication then very little business would ever get done. In the second-hand market of any trade a lot of business is done on the persons own knowledge of a particular subject and very often gut instinct!

I think you should all agree to disagree on this one and remember that just because you (Foundation) wouldn't buy anything without a 'hand written letter to you from Banksy', a lot of other people, especially traders, would!

[foundation]

Guerilla art, the fpints we are talking about are pre POW, when their printing was done out of house, there were quite a few prints from that time where extra copies were taken unauthorised from the printers without banksys knowledge, pissing alot of people off, hence POW now doing all their own printing now, and the problem has stopped ( before anyone starts bleating about the rat last week, that was known and accepted by POW). Not saying people should be stopped from buying anything, but also think its wrong to tell someone that they are buying something more than they actually are.
As for me thinking I am an art dealer, you know what you can do with that, I havent sold a single print and dont plan to, but i do like to be confident that what i have is real. It will be interesting to see how the already expanding fakes market does in the next couple of years. As far as a hand written letter from banksy goes, a POW stamp, a number written in handwriting i recognise is good enough for me. Learn a bit more of whats going on before you wade in and get a bit lippy .

[foundation]

Punk i am and have been talking about back door prints, as i thought you were, each time a new example of random printing comes up, yellow J&Js, APs, signed unnumbered gifts from the artist etc etc etc......... They all have their place. I see your point about banging my head against a brick wall.

[Daniel Silk]

I think your gonna just need to agree to disagree and leave it a that ;D

How did all this start up on the thread of the Canvas Weston Super Mare anyway?

[foundation]

Its a long story and a simple difference of opinion Withus, leaving it alone as its not the sort of place where minds can be changed. I have no vested interest in the issue, just strong feelings on the matter.