[Jaylove]

May 3, 2018 8:30:06 GMT 1 biglebowski said:

He has some mad ramblings, but you are missing the point of the poorly worded slavery line he came out with. He is saying that by playing the victim card in 2018 and continuing to embrace the slave mentality, black people are holding themselves back. Its something which many other black celebrities have eluded to (Morgan freeman, densely), and if you agree or not its a conversation that should be had in the USA

Other conversations need to be had first, though.  Kanye is an idiot point blank.

[biglebowski]

You really ought to articulate your view better. It is this exact mentality of labeling people you disagree with as 'idiots' that is fueling the rise of Trump, Brexit etc.

I don't like Donald Trump, but would I ever call a Trump supporter an idiot? No. I would sit down with them and explain why he is not the best man to run the free world. We need to be more open to conversation and engaging in debate to convince people to question their beliefs. Labels and blanket statements simply fuel cognitive dissonance and if it continues, will lead to further polarization and 'group think' in the Western world.

My overall message as a centrist on most of these debates...arguments have nuance and complexities, lets stop being so positive vs negative, right vs left, democrat vs republican, brexiteer vs remainer...lets think things through a bit more and engage in meaningful discussions to really hash out the truth.

[stelio]

May 3, 2018 14:56:52 GMT 1 biglebowski said:

You really ought to articulate your view better. It is this exact mentality of labeling people you disagree with as 'idiots' that is fueling the rise of Trump, Brexit etc.

I don't like Donald Trump, but would I ever call a Trump supporter an idiot? No. I would sit down with them and explain why he is not the best man to run the free world. We need to be more open to conversation and engaging in debate to convince people to question their beliefs. Labels and blanket statements simply fuel cognitive dissonance and if it continues, will lead to further polarization and 'group think' in the Western world.

My overall message as a centrist on most of these debates...arguments have nuance and complexities, lets stop being so positive vs negative, right vs left, democrat vs republican, brexiteer vs remainer...lets think things through a bit more and engage in meaningful discussions to really hash out the truth.

The conversation is never going to progress past the name calling as long as we have team politics (Red vs Blue, them vs us) mentality. The sad part most dont realize its the same two headed snake with both parties so taking a stance on either just perpetuates the cycle. Money/Lobbyists in American politics I believe is the one of the main issue as representatives who get elected might start with moral ambiguity but all they seem to be corrupted by the system in place at some point in their career. Truly believe the only way to change things is for there to be some global cataclysmic event that wipes out a huge portion of the population and then world has to start over. But then again we are probably doomed to repeat history if that were to occur.

[Matt]

May 3, 2018 14:56:52 GMT 1 biglebowski said:

You really ought to articulate your view better. It is this exact mentality of labeling people you disagree with as 'idiots' that is fueling the rise of Trump, Brexit etc.

I don't like Donald Trump, but would I ever call a Trump supporter an idiot? No. I would sit down with them and explain why he is not the best man to run the free world. We need to be more open to conversation and engaging in debate to convince people to question their beliefs. Labels and blanket statements simply fuel cognitive dissonance and if it continues, will lead to further polarization and 'group think' in the Western world.

My overall message as a centrist on most of these debates...arguments have nuance and complexities, lets stop being so positive vs negative, right vs left, democrat vs republican, brexiteer vs remainer...lets think things through a bit more and engage in meaningful discussions to really hash out the truth.

I read this and thought I had landed on the wrong forum

Amen to those sensible words

[qest]

those words are sensible but i don't think there's anything sensible about the initial comment that "black people are holding themselves back." and any assertion like that is a total nonstarter for a reasonable, informed discussion. people are entitled to opinions, but not all opinions are owed the same deference or respectful engagement.

sorry to jump into a controversial topic like that on post #3

[biglebowski]

Please re-read the post of mine that you are referring too. I said 'he said' this, referring to the fact that this is what Kanye West was saying. If you read my comment, I offered no opinion on the view that the slave mentality is holding back black people, I was merely stating that this is the view that Kanye West holds and he was trying to articulate, I never entered my opinion into the debate.

Now for my actual opinion. I do not believe that making such a statement (which as you will now see, I did not), should be a non starter to a conversation. My view is that all ideas ought to be debated, that is how the best ideas rise to the top and drive forward progress in society. I don't feel that an art forum is the best place to have the debate on whether the slave mentality amongst black people in america is hindering their chances at progress, but I do believe it is a debate that ought to happen amongst the black community in america. As a white Jewish male from London, I don't think its my place to have that debate.

[qest]

i don't think it's your place to have that debate either.

[biglebowski]

Okay well we agree on that. But you saying that the mere mention of that topic is 'a total nonstarter' for a conversation is exactly the problem here. For too long the left has shy'ed away from controversial topics, allowing the right to pick them up and claim to be the holders of free speech.

All topics should be up for debate from all sides of the political spectrum. That way the best ideas rise to the top, it worked for so long in Western democracies but for some reason the left no longer wants to engage in meaningful debate... Hence the uprising of Trump and Brexit.

Its a sad vicious cycle which starts with the postmodern left and is really a danger to our societies

[d.r. perseus]

May 3, 2018 8:30:06 GMT 1 biglebowski said:

He has some mad ramblings, but you are missing the point of the poorly worded slavery line he came out with. He is saying that by playing the victim card in 2018 and continuing to embrace the slave mentality, black people are holding themselves back. Its something which many other black celebrities have eluded to (Morgan freeman, densely), and if you agree or not its a conversation that should be had in the USA

Working in health care in a low income community in Los Angeles I can assure you the barriers to success, healthy living, and education are not there due to playing the victim, Embracing slave mentality, and holding themselves back.

People love to speak on communities they don't understand or know intimately. It's odd.

[biglebowski]

May 4, 2018 16:40:20 GMT 1 d.r. perseus said:

May 3, 2018 8:30:06 GMT 1 biglebowski said:

He has some mad ramblings, but you are missing the point of the poorly worded slavery line he came out with. He is saying that by playing the victim card in 2018 and continuing to embrace the slave mentality, black people are holding themselves back. Its something which many other black celebrities have eluded to (Morgan freeman, densely), and if you agree or not its a conversation that should be had in the USA

Working in health care in a low income community in Los Angeles I can assure you the barriers to success, healthy living, and education are not there due to playing the victim, Embracing slave mentality, and holding themselves back.

People love to speak on communities they don't understand or know intimately. It's odd.

For the second time please re-read my comment, I didn't say that was my opinion, but that is what I believe Kanye was trying to say and he has since clarified. Considering he comes from such a community, he has every right to comment on it and hold his opinion.

Plus I don't think anyone is saying that the state of education and health care in low income areas isn't a problem, its a huge one. But to believe you cannot succeed regardless of those difficulties is a BAD mentality, even though it might be a hell of a lot harder!

[qest]

exactly what community do you think he is from? kanye west grew up in the suburbs in a city that is currently 93% white.

as for what kanye actually meant, your interpretation is not consistent with his initial statements or his clarification ("To make myself clear. Of course I know that slaves did not get shackled and put on a boat by free will," he wrote. "My point is for us to have stayed in that position even though the numbers were on our side means that we were mentally enslaved."). 

the "numbers on our side" comment clearly indicates he's talking about rebellion in the time of slavery, not a mythical black identity victim card in 2018.

[bone]

May 4, 2018 17:18:11 GMT 1 qest said:

exactly what community do you think he is from? kanye west grew up in the suburbs in a city that is currently 93% white.

as for what kanye actually meant, your interpretation is not consistent with his initial statements or his clarification ("To make myself clear. Of course I know that slaves did not get shackled and put on a boat by free will," he wrote. "My point is for us to have stayed in that position even though the numbers were on our side means that we were mentally enslaved."). 

the "numbers on our side" comment clearly indicates he's talking about rebellion in the time of slavery, not a mythical black identity victim card in 2018.

What city are you talking about?  Chicago is 45.3 caucasion, oak lawn is 81%

[qest]

oak lawn - thanks for catching that. i was looking at 2000 demographics which should actually track more closely with when he was in high school.

[irl1]

May 14, 2018 20:26:58 GMT 1 sim said:

www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-44104599



Fck Trump.

Yes f**k Trump. 

[Pysgod]

While presidents before him backed down from their pledge to move the American Embassy, this president delivered. Because when President Trump makes a promise, he keeps it.

[telecine]

May 14, 2018 20:57:22 GMT 1 Pysgod said:

While presidents before him backed down from their pledge to move the American Embassy, this president delivered. Because when President Trump makes a promise, he keeps it.

Too true fish boy!

[irl1]

May 14, 2018 20:57:22 GMT 1 Pysgod said:

While presidents before him backed down from their pledge to move the American Embassy, this president delivered. Because when President Trump makes a promise, he keeps it.

I agree with you there, he does keep his promises. Its his timing. Look what he done down there (Palestine) at Christmas, and now opens it the day before the 70th anniversary of Nakba day. The day 700,000 Palestinian people lost their homes.  

[Deleted]

May 14, 2018 20:26:58 GMT 1 sim said:

www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-44104599



Fck Trump.

Were they killed because they were peacefully living their lives and building a better future for themselves?

Or were they killed because they, led by a terrorist group, were trying to invade a foreign sovereign nation that has every right to defend it's borders?

Perspective, perspective.

[Deleted]

May 14, 2018 21:32:01 GMT 1 @blanksky said:

May 14, 2018 20:26:58 GMT 1 sim said:

www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-44104599



Fck Trump.

Were they killed because they were peacefully living their lives and building a better future for themselves?

Or were they killed because they, led by a terrorist group, were trying to invade a foreign sovereign nation that has every right to defend it's borders?

Perspective, perspective.

You tell me, why were they murdered?

[Deleted]

May 14, 2018 21:45:03 GMT 1 @bren said:

May 14, 2018 21:32:01 GMT 1 @blanksky said:

Were they killed because they were peacefully living their lives and building a better future for themselves?

Or were they killed because they, led by a terrorist group, were trying to invade a foreign sovereign nation that has every right to defend it's borders?

Perspective, perspective.

You tell me, why were they murdered?

They were killed because Hamas, an internationally recognized terrorist organization, using the influence of mosques, told them to go to the border and try to invade Isreal to 'reclaim the land'.

[detail]

May 14, 2018 21:32:01 GMT 1 @blanksky said:

May 14, 2018 20:26:58 GMT 1 sim said:

www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-44104599



Fck Trump.

Were they killed because they were peacefully living their lives and building a better future for themselves?

Or were they killed because they, led by a terrorist group, were trying to invade a foreign sovereign nation that has every right to defend it's borders?

Perspective, perspective.

Is it an attempt to 'invade a foreign sovereign nation'? or is it a bunch of kids throwing stones in protest?  

Perspective - you don't shoot a bunch of kids throwing stones - not if you have any humanity.

[Deleted]

May 14, 2018 21:57:53 GMT 1 detail said:

May 14, 2018 21:32:01 GMT 1 @blanksky said:

Were they killed because they were peacefully living their lives and building a better future for themselves?

Or were they killed because they, led by a terrorist group, were trying to invade a foreign sovereign nation that has every right to defend it's borders?

Perspective, perspective.

Is it an attempt to 'invade a foreign sovereign nation'? or is it a bunch of kids throwing stones in protest?  

Perspective - you don't shoot a bunch of kids throwing stones - not if you have any humanity.

If you call 30.000 young men of fighting age 'a bunch of kids' then yeah, sure.

[Deleted]

May 14, 2018 22:02:08 GMT 1 god’s ultimate noise said:

May 14, 2018 21:32:01 GMT 1 @blanksky said:

Were they killed because they were peacefully living their lives and building a better future for themselves?

Or were they killed because they, led by a terrorist group, were trying to invade a foreign sovereign nation that has every right to defend it's borders?

Perspective, perspective.

Er... ”Sovereign nation”?
Fact is, no state is internationally recognised as having sovereignty over Jerusalem.

Fact also is that Israel offered Palestine for Jerusalem to be a shared capital at least 3 times in the last 20 years during peace talks. Palestine turned down each and every one of these offers.

The most sane thing I ever heard about this complex conflict is this: If it was up to Israeli leaders, there would be peace in whatever form an international coalition could drum up. If it were up to Palestine leaders (which almost all have close ties to Hamas), all jews would be dead.

[amsterdam9697]

Fact is, you're full of chit. Nothing more than a wannabe 'intellectual' dipping his toes into right-wing nationalistic politics. Pretty much every thing you post is slanted and peppered with misinformation. When you're called on your bullshit, you just step around it, yell "Borders & Terrorism" and continue to post more biased chit.

[Deleted]

May 14, 2018 23:48:02 GMT 1 amsterdam9697 said:

Fact is, you're full of chit. Nothing more than a wannabe 'intellectual' dipping his toes into right-wing nationalistic politics. Pretty much every thing you post is slanted and peppered with misinformation. When you're called on your bullshit, you just step around it, yell "Borders & Terrorism" and continue to post more biased chit.

Far left activist types accusing others of misinformation always makes me chuckle. Especially when they can't seem to produce any counterpoints to cited facts.

[nex]

1. Present cited facts
2. Present the full level of complexity there is to this
3. Present the reasons accurately and without bias for orevious peace negotiations failing
4. Remember 52 people died today, humility and compassion and just think of it was your family...

[amsterdam9697]

May 15, 2018 0:05:29 GMT 1 @blanksky said:

May 14, 2018 23:48:02 GMT 1 amsterdam9697 said:

Fact is, you're full of chit. Nothing more than a wannabe 'intellectual' dipping his toes into right-wing nationalistic politics. Pretty much every thing you post is slanted and peppered with misinformation. When you're called on your bullshit, you just step around it, yell "Borders & Terrorism" and continue to post more biased chit.

Far left activist types accusing others of misinformation always makes me chuckle. Especially when they can't seem to produce any counterpoints to cited facts.

Your 'cited facts' are nothing more than misinformed lies that have been shown as such, repeatedly, throughout this entire thread. You're full of misinformation that you've learned from the biased, xenophobic sources you seek your news and information from. Nothing more. Nothing less. In other words, you're a sham and a puppet for the right-wing.

[Deleted]

May 15, 2018 0:23:48 GMT 1 amsterdam9697 said:

May 15, 2018 0:05:29 GMT 1 @blanksky said:

Far left activist types accusing others of misinformation always makes me chuckle. Especially when they can't seem to produce any counterpoints to cited facts.

Your 'cited facts' are nothing more than misinformed lies that have been shown as such, repeatedly, throughout this entire thread. You're full of misinformation that you've learned from the biased, xenophobic sources you seek your news and information from. Nothing more. Nothing less. In other words, you're a sham and a puppet for the right-wing.

Like what exactly? Please cite the lies so I can respond to them, don't just shout like an antifa thug.

[Deleted]

May 15, 2018 0:21:51 GMT 1 god’s ultimate noise said:

May 15, 2018 0:05:29 GMT 1 @blanksky said:

Far left activist types accusing others of misinformation always makes me chuckle. Especially when they can't seem to produce any counterpoints to cited facts.

Says the guy who earlier this evening incorrectly stated factually that Jerusalem is a “sovereign nation”.
And for the record, I’m not a “far left activist type”, I’m an “attempting to preserve humanity in the face of competing forces type”.

Huh? I stated that Israel is a sovereign nation, which should defends it's borders against Palestinian terrorists. Where did you see me state that a city is a nation? That would be pretty weird.

[amsterdam9697]

All I can hear is the buzz from your echo chamber. Huh? What? When? Not me.