Banksy "Venus" and a few others @ Sothebys 6/27/13

[Simococo]

415k

[Deleted]

165 hammer.

[anbesivam1]

Jun 5, 2013 16:12:16 GMT 1 Simococo said:

415k

dollars or sterling?
hammer or plus premium?

[anbesivam1]

$500k plus premium

[Simococo]

Jun 5, 2013 16:35:00 GMT 1 anbesivam1 said:

Jun 5, 2013 16:12:16 GMT 1 Simococo said:

415k

dollars or sterling?
hammer or plus premium?

Sterling with premium

[Deleted]

I reckon i would give Banksy (who lets be honest is probably minted for not really a lot of work) a couple of hundred to bang out a canvas (small please) of my Dog.

[Hubble Bubble]

Is it me... or is this painting er... how do I say it... not very good?

[Ruggs]

Love that Sid canvas.

[Pistol]

Jun 5, 2013 4:01:45 GMT 1 AFR1KA said:

Best guess on what it sells for?

www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2013/contemporary-art-day-auction-l13023/lot.325.html


BANKSY
B. 1975
VENUS
Estimate: 150,000 - 200,000 GBP
stencilled with the artist's signature; signed and dated Sep 2006 on the overlap
oil on canvas
90.7 by 121.5cm.; 35 3/4 by 47 7/8 in.

Provenance
PC COA
Lazarides Gallery, London
Acquired directly from the above by the present owner in 2006
Exhibited
Los Angeles, Barely Legal, 2006

Also up for grabs:
Sid Vicious: www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2013/contemporary-art-day-auction-l13023/lot.326.html

heavy weaponry: www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2013/contemporary-art-day-auction-l13023/lot.358.html

The way things are at the moment I reckon it will get traded for a Nola and Dolk Teddy Riot ;-)

[Dr Plip]

Jun 6, 2013 9:50:38 GMT 1 Hubble Bubble said:

Is it me... or is this painting er... how do I say it... not very good?

Do you like the Sid Vicious?

[Hubble Bubble]

Jun 6, 2013 13:46:17 GMT 1 Dr Plip said:

Jun 6, 2013 9:50:38 GMT 1 Hubble Bubble said:

Is it me... or is this painting er... how do I say it... not very good?

Do you like the Sid Vicious?

plip

Yes I do.  Apart from the fact that it doesn't look that much like Sid... to me, it's much more Banksy.  With Banksy's oils I just think they have to be searingly acerbic or fiercely well painted and Venus (to me) is neither.

HB

[Dr Plip]

The Heavy Weaponary is LUV-er-ly.

I got quite excited that there was a Joseph Beuys that I could probably afford. But then it's just a paper bag, basically

Art's a funny thing. Some of it's pretty to look at, some skilfully executed, some are just basic autograph hunting.

If the Banksy Sid Vicious was by Bansky, and in the local Oxfam for £1000, I doubt many people would buy it.

Having said that, did I mention how lovely the Heavy Weaponary is?

[Dr Plip]

Jun 6, 2013 14:29:02 GMT 1 Hubble Bubble said:

Jun 6, 2013 13:46:17 GMT 1 Dr Plip said:

Do you like the Sid Vicious?

plip

Yes I do.  Apart from the fact that it doesn't look that much like Sid... to me, it's much more Banksy.  With Banksy's oils I just think they have to be searingly acerbic or fiercely well painted and Venus (to me) is neither.

HB

I have to agree, and I like the simplicity of the earlier stencils.

[lee3]

Jun 6, 2013 9:50:38 GMT 1 Hubble Bubble said:

Is it me... or is this painting er... how do I say it... not very good?

It's not the best corrupted oil, I agree.  But it is a corrupted oil and those will always be in demand. Even at a $500k sale price, the price would look pedestrian compared to the ask for the same painting on old Laz .pdf's from ~'07/8.  In case anyone reading isn't aware of the interpretation from Velazquez:


If I were a billionaire or a buyer for one, I wouldn't hesitate to splash down a million for that piece.   For my eyes, Glory is the best of the bunch at the primary houses and that flower chucker. Nothing in phillips day sale (though there is an astonishing Mcgee) which leaves only thier evening sale for any additional Banksy for June London.

[Dr Plip]

Jun 6, 2013 16:35:56 GMT 1 lee3 said:

Jun 6, 2013 9:50:38 GMT 1 Hubble Bubble said:

Is it me... or is this painting er... how do I say it... not very good?

It's not the best corrupted oil, I agree.  But it is a corrupted oil and those will always be in demand. Even at a $500k sale price, the price would look pedestrian compared to the ask for the same painting on old Laz .pdf's from ~'07/8.  In case anyone reading isn't aware of the interpretation from Velazquez:


If I were a billionaire or a buyer for one, I wouldn't hesitate to splash down a million for that piece.   For my eyes, Glory is the best of the bunch at the primary houses and that flower chucker. Nothing in phillips day sale (though there is an astonishing Mcgee) which leaves only thier evening sale for any additional Banksy for June London.

The McGee is stunning. It'd need its own room.

[Dice]

Pretty sure the sid vicious is owned by laz, I was quoted £120k for it last year. LITTLE out of my price range, guess he/they need to raise some dosh

[craigf]

Jun 7, 2013 13:56:34 GMT 1 Dice said:

Pretty sure the sid vicious is owned by laz, I was quoted £120k for it last year. LITTLE out of my price range, guess he/they need to raise some dosh

He definitely has one, not sure if this the same one, it is an edition of 2 I think

[craigf]

It is a different one, Laz's has a white circle around the middle Sid

[Hubble Bubble]

What that fella must have in his attic!

[Deleted]

Jun 6, 2013 16:35:56 GMT 1 lee3 said:

Jun 6, 2013 9:50:38 GMT 1 Hubble Bubble said:

Is it me... or is this painting er... how do I say it... not very good?

It's not the best corrupted oil, I agree.  But it is a corrupted oil and those will always be in demand. Even at a $500k sale price, the price would look pedestrian compared to the ask for the same painting on old Laz .pdf's from ~'07/8.  In case anyone reading isn't aware of the interpretation from Velazquez:

How many of these corrupted / spoiled / bastardized oils did he do please?.

[lee3]

>>>>How many of these corrupted / spoiled / bastardized oils did he do please?.<<<

I'm not sure and I would be curious to know but unfortunately pest control isn't hiring me anytime soon.  I'd guess maybe 100 total between corrupted and vandalized oils though he certainly isn't anywhere near as prolific as he could be. I should also add that I'm not certain of the exact terminology (and am in fact probably wrong) but I've always used the term corrupted oils to refer to the ones that he painted and many/most of them are inspired by other master works before him. Conversely, I've always used the term vandalized oil to refer to the ones where he is painting over the work of another artist. Again, I'm probably wrong with the precise terminology but it makes sense inside of my head so I run with it.

If I had my choice, I'd always choose the vandalized (as I described above) as opposed to the corrupted oil because the former feels more ground breaking to my eyes. His ingenuity is evident across both and I'm splitting hairs but trying to explain why my eyes prefer a simplistic work like Glory to Venus. When he's painting over someone else's work it has a bigger impact to my eyes with an obvious tie to graffiti. When he's reworking an old master's work humorously to reflect the world we live in, I appreciate the new viewpoint and the execution but *I* don't feel that edge or punch in the gut as the viewer quite as much.  
 

[Dice]

Jun 7, 2013 21:04:26 GMT 1 lee3 said:

>>>>How many of these corrupted / spoiled / bastardized oils did he do please?.<<<

I'm not sure and I would be curious to know but unfortunately pest control isn't hiring me anytime soon.  I'd guess maybe 100 total between corrupted and vandalized oils though he certainly isn't anywhere near as prolific as he could be. I should also add that I'm not certain of the exact terminology (and am in fact probably wrong) but I've always used the term corrupted oils to refer to the ones that he painted and many/most of them are inspired by other master works before him. Conversely, I've always used the term vandalized oil to refer to the ones where he is painting over the work of another artist. Again, I'm probably wrong with the precise terminology but it makes sense inside of my head so I run with it.

If I had my choice, I'd always choose the vandalized (as I described above) as opposed to the corrupted oil because the former feels more ground breaking to my eyes. His ingenuity is evident across both and I'm splitting hairs but trying to explain why my eyes prefer a simplistic work like Glory to Venus. When he's painting over someone else's work it has a bigger impact to my eyes with an obvious tie to graffiti. When he's reworking an old master's work humorously to reflect the world we live in, I appreciate the new viewpoint and the execution but *I* don't feel that edge or punch in the gut as the viewer quite as much.  
 

Well put, thanks.

I totally agree re the corrupted oils however I am guessing quite a bit more work goes into the vandalised, but is this reflected in the price do you think?

I must say my favourite banksy originals are the old stencil sprays (thanks Craig btw for pointing out the difference in the Sid canvases). There were loads of the oils at the Bristol museum but they didn't really do anything for me. Appreciate the unique ideas behind them though.

[Harveyn]

Strong price on the Sid Vicious canvas £76.9k. Good price for the buyer on the HW Bristol £32.5k. Pass on the Venus canvas @ £150/200k.

Bit like yesterday at Christies and a mixed bag.

[jB]

**Edit: You beat me to the punch Harv. 

Venus - Bought In

www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2013/contemporary-art-day-auction-l13023/lot.325.lotnum.html


Sid Vicious - 76,900GBP (Inc. hammer)

www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2013/contemporary-art-day-auction-l13023/lot.326.lotnum.html


London, New York, Bristol - 32,500GBP (Inc. hammer)

www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2013/contemporary-art-day-auction-l13023/lot.358.lotnum.html


And I think this Faile (which was bought in as well) would have been a great pick up at 6KGBP

www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2013/contemporary-art-day-auction-l13023/lot.361.lotnum.html

[Harveyn]

Out of interest and based on a mixed bag of results for the Banksy originals sold at auction over the last two days does anyone know if there is a seasonal consideration when placing works into auction? Is there some statistical analysis out there? I always assumed that summer months traditionally were not advised from a holiday and I guess bonus season perspective. Just a hunch on my behalf but it would be interesting to know if there is any evidence to back that up.

Obviously the auction house selected and the other works being sold (too strong/ too weak)has an influence on works that you might sell at auction but I guess the experts out there even consider where in an auction the work is placed both in the catalogue and auction room.

Saying that the results look very inconsistent IMO which blows all the above theories out of the window!!!

LIITA canvas - £163.2k (Strong but fair)
Sid Vicious canvas - £76.9k (Slightly high)
HW Bristol canvas - £32.5k (Low)
Glory spray enamel on found lithographic print - £70.8k (Expected)
Bomb Hugger canvas - £40k (Very Low)
Venus canvas - passed @ £150k (?)

[lee3]

Jun 27, 2013 18:22:14 GMT 1 Harveyn said:

Out of interest and based on a mixed bag of results for the Banksy originals sold at auction over the last two days does anyone know if there is a seasonal consideration when placing works into auction? Is there some statistical analysis out there? I always assumed that summer months traditionally were not advised from a holiday and I guess bonus season perspective. Just a hunch on my behalf but it would be interesting to know if there is any evidence to back that up.

Obviously the auction house selected and the other works being sold (too strong/ too weak)has an influence on works that you might sell at auction but I guess the experts out there even consider where in an auction the work is placed both in the catalogue and auction room.

Saying that the results look very inconsistent IMO which blows all the above theories out of the window!!!

LIITA canvas - £163.2k (Strong but fair)
Sid Vicious canvas - £76.9k (Slightly high)
HW Bristol canvas - £32.5k (Low)
Glory spray enamel on found lithographic print - £70.8k (Expected)
Bomb Hugger canvas - £40k (Very Low)
Venus canvas - passed @ £150k (?)

I follow closely but am hardly an expert. Your biggest months by far are May and November NY.  London's big sales which pale revenue wise with NY are June/October. Paris February has been growing as of late too. But, to be clear June London is prime time with October. You don't see much Banksy in either May or November presumably because the auctions try to steer Banksy consignments to their London sales. By the same token you'll see significantly more Warhol in the NY sales than you do in London.

I expected Glory to do a lot better and Venus to do ~$400k. The flower chucker was inline with what I thought it would do at Bonhams and would have expected to see it fetch another $50-100k with good placement at either of the primary houses.  There is no doubt that Banksy was heavy this week but that is true of most artists not named Richter/Bacon/Basquiat/Doig/etc.  Further, being the last pair of lots is never a good idea in any sale. 

The market paid up heavily for quality and overlooked a lot of work that used to sell with ease for much higher prices this week.  It's as if buyers are chasing a smaller and smaller pool of artists and art. Warhol was very heavy too. Banksy has been quite hot at auction from recent memory and one can never read too much into any one group of sales. Things will quiet down now until October for the art market auction wise with August usually being the lull of the year. I don't have any statistical evidence to cite for you (outside of revenue totals by sale which are easily googled) but as a seller I would always favor May/November but June and October are right behind it.  If one had a Banksy for auction you most certainly would favor this week or October for London.  At some point I think we'll see more of him in the NY sales but that is pure speculation on my part.  

[lee3]

I was not watching the sale live and just relying on the site to tell me which were sold and unsold. It appears now that the Venus painting was sold at least according to the Sotheby's site as of the moment (146k sterling/235k US):

www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2013/contemporary-art-day-auction-l13023/lot.325.lotnum.html

[Harveyn]

Jun 27, 2013 19:41:22 GMT 1 lee3 said:

I was not watching the sale live and just relying on the site to tell me which were sold and unsold. It appears now that the Venus painting was sold at least according to the Sotheby's site as of the moment (146k sterling/235k US):

www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2013/contemporary-art-day-auction-l13023/lot.325.lotnum.html

Thanks Lee for your thoughts.  I find the auction thing both interesting and intriging.  In recent months I have found myself just sitting listening to auctions as background noise whilst I work at night.

I missed the Venus auction but it certainly did not show as sold up to an hour after the auction ended.  Your right you cannot read too much into a couple of auctions and that was not my intent.  I actually think the results were quite strong on average.  I just find it an interesting subject to discuss.

LIITA canvas - £163.2k (Strong but fair)
Sid Vicious canvas - £76.9k (Slightly high)
HW Bristol canvas - £32.5k (Low)
Glory spray enamel on found lithographic print - £70.8k (Expected)
Bomb Hugger canvas - £40k (Very Low)
Venus canvas - £146k (Low)

[Harveyn]

I would also add that I am jealous as hell that I did not pick that BH canvas up at £40k. So that now makes three people I know that would have paid £50k+ for it!!

[lee3]

^ I've been watching them habitually for years. 15 years ago I literally poured over the catalogs just studying the work and reading about the art trying to filter out my preferences and learn even though I had no hope of ever buying 99%+ of what I was looking at. It's a positive for teaching yourself if nothing else though it certainly does push one down the pricing path over time which gravitates away from what this is ultimately all about. It's hard not to become shocked at the pricing power when you see what has happened over time to the treasures.

To your last point, one loses track of how many times after the fact you think to yourself "I would have paid this or that" and you have to be grateful to even have that mindset in this world. Only way to avoid it is to enter an absentee bid to make sure nothing gets stolen for the pieces you cherish. That's one nice thing about entering a bid even if you know it will get run over, the auction houses will flood your mailbox with all of the auction catalogs for the upcoming year free of charge.