[lesroy]

We have discussed an aspect of this here a few times. However, I have a query for you all.

We all know POW sell us art at cheap prices. That is what they are there for, bringing afforbale, quality art to us for good prices.

With particular artists, Micallef, Faile, Banksy etc... these prices are open to abuse (as we all know). POW & the Artists are not thick but it is their wish to stick to their moto... for this I am very greatful! I would ever have the small collection I have now without them!

However my discussion is:

Micallef - Judgement Day £600
Banksy - Morons - £440
Banksy - Applause - £550

I have bought these prints from ebay over the last 6 months and have paid the "market value" because I really wanted them.

1) Would you all prefer to pay "market rate" for a print straight from the Gallery (POW) with all the proper provenance etc

2) Or would you prefer to take your chance with the mad rush and then end up paying a bagger to have the print you want, registered in someone else's name etc?

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Obviously my thoughts would be, that I would prefer to buy straight from POW at the discounted prices we see today, however, I wonder if this will change if more and more of us miss out to people who want to make profits and have to buy from them?

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This is just an open discussion and a place for a few thoughts. The last time I posted something referring to "baggers" I received about 25 negative points from, I would assume, the "baggers".

It'd be nice to discuss this without the same shit happeninig again

[biggayal]

Very interesting point that raises a few questions there Lesroy. Firstly, if prints were sold from POW at their 'market' value, would there still be much of a secondary market for the prints I think that there would be for certain artists but not so much for the less established/well known ones that people are buying 'just in case'
If POW had sold the Sepia Morons for 3.2K, would this then send the secondary market to a level of 5K, as due to Mr.B's popularity people would still be buying because of who he is other than for their love of his work
Personally, I would always rather buy from a specific art retailer such as POW at market value than line someones elses pockets with 2K instant profit margin.
I have yet to buy anything on e-bay for inflated prices and have taken the stance that if I miss out then so be it. The only way I may get hold of these prints, is to offer someone a swap with something that I have got hold of in return which I have done a few times through the forum. Although, I must admit, that I have been very tempted to pick up a Neate on the bay due to missing out thus far - we'll have to see if I can bite the bullet

[numusic]

The only problem with that scenario is being reflected in the Neate prints. From 700 quid to 2k overnight..

So without POW your ebay buys would be significantly higher.

Micallef - Judgement Day £600 (Bagger 1500)
Banksy - Morons - £440 (Bagger 950)
Banksy - Applause - £550 (Bagger 1200)

[Vsix]

The majority of Banksy/Micallef sales through POW are bought by people because they get an instant increase in value, regardless if they want to resell them or keep them. There is this high demand as people obviously prefer to buy at the lowest price possible.
But if POW or Lazarides try and sell at market value, only dedicated collectors or people who really desire a certain print on their wall will purchase them.
i.e. Lazarides has put the latest Micallef prints at what he thought was 'Market Value' but sales have been slow and are still available.
The danger is if POW follow suit, it does not give an oppurtunity for these Artists to be introduced to new collectors. Which has benefited these Artists in the long run!!
I hope POW continue as they are, sometimes we are lucky enough to purchase a print and other times we miss out. But we are all looking forward to the next oppurtunity!

[taco]

v6catfun said:

The majority of Banksy/Micallef sales through POW are bought by people because they get an instant increase in value, regardless if they want to resell them or keep them. There is this high demand as people obviously prefer to buy at the lowest price possible.
But if POW or Lazarides try and sell at market value, only dedicated collectors or people who really desire a certain print on their wall will purchase them.
i.e. Lazarides has put the latest Micallef prints at what he thought was 'Market Value' but sales have been slow and are still available.
The danger is if POW follow suit, it does not give an oppurtunity for these Artists to be introduced to new collectors. Which has benefited these Artists in the long run!!
I hope POW continue as they are, sometimes we are lucky enough to purchase a print and other times we miss out. But we are all looking forward to the next oppurtunity!

I agree, similarly Donwood has always sold his prints at "market value" some sell out eventually and hardly a bagger in sight...

[tomhills1]

i'm paraphrasing a little here, but i think POW mantra is along the lines of bringing a large and diverse collective of artists to a more everyman public at an affordable price. they style themselves on a record label that houses numerous artists that produce variations on a theme. if you're in to your beats, you may buy most tracks from a particular label or artist, unless it is absolute pony.

i think what POW have done is set up a brand, which houses an umbrella of creativity that the majority buy into. for example, who owns work by purely one artist? how many of the various works you own are from POW or artists associated with them? not just POW but any of the other print houses that sell editioned prints at affordable prices.

the problem is, if work is sold at market value, it isn't: it's perceived market value. ie, a print is only worth what someone will pay. if they are sold at a price in an instant they are obviously highly sought after and demand will ensure prices rise. the higher the price, the less people can afford them. hence the fact original work of very small, if not one off, numbers is so far out of most people's leagues. it is simple supply and demand economics.

LAZ sells a lot of work but how many people on this forum or indeed in most walks of life can afford them? i can't that's for sure. what POW et al do is bring a larger amount of work to a larger number of people. otherwise it would be your life savings for one piece.

i don't like giving my money to a middle man who was lucky enough to bag a print that i wanted and sat on it for precisely one day. but it's a vicious circle, if the baggers didn't buy them there would be very little re-sale but it should be easier to get a print. afterall no bagger manages to sell a print for more than it's worth because value is relative.

this is my very long winded way of saying, keep things as they are, we may not like it at times but i'm sure the majority of us would be well snookered by the alternative of starting off at a higher price.

and like i think nu said, if they sell out at the higher prices the secondary market will become even more inflated.

keep POW for the little man and LAZ for the bankers. sorry nick

[pastiepie]

How do you class the black mona then? It was sold for 275 when it's market value is surely far less. Would I buy a black mona for 100quid, probably not but maybe somebody would. Same could be said for some of the brp prints.

[corblimeylimey]

I think BRP have got it about right, high prices but not too high.

SOS are brilliant very good prices, and even after increasing a little on ebay could still afford them.

As for POW, it's a mixed bag, some of their prices are very good (Banksy) and others (Invader & Dolk) are about right IMO. If they were to sell Banksy's at market value you can count me out, I can't afford those ebay prices and have never bought any from ebay, also compared to what you can get for that kind of money I don't think they're worth it.

[tomhills1]

pastiepie said:

How do you class the black mona then? It was sold for 275 when it's market value is surely far less. Would I buy a black mona for 100quid, probably not but maybe somebody would. Same could be said for some of the brp prints.

an anomoly.

[dkla]

Interesting thread, Les. You raise some interesting points. For me though, it's an easy question to answer. I'd prefer to have a shot at the "discounted" POW price, and then if I must hit up the bay or other secondary sources to purchase it (e.g., this forum) then so be it. But at least I had a chance.

That said, there may be a flaw inherent in your two cut-and-dried scenarios. That is, if say POW were to release their new Banksy prints at the current "market" rate, that would probably only serve to set a new bar for what the "low base price" is. I'm sure baggers would still be all over it and would turn around the art for more money on the bay, etc., causing the prices in the secondary market to be even higher (albeit perhaps at not such a huge margin as there is now). So all that would really serve to do in the end is price true fans out of the market. Of course the artist and POW winds up making more money, but obviously they're not in this solely for the buck, or things would have been different a long time ago.

That's my 2¢

[ctc2]

I think Banksy is now a brand and that those who like his work but are average joes will continue to be shut out. He is a rich mans artist now for the most part. POW knows that and will take small increases based on demand. To me kind of runs contrary to the image that Banksy started but that is commerce.

[ABC]

POW could easily sell banksys for triple the prices but they choose not to which is a credit to the outfit they stand for, Im glad they have kept the prices realistic then If you didn't manage to get one you can always feed a bagger for the week by buying his on the Bay. But to answer the question straight, Yes I would pay the market rate direct to POW and I would feel a lot better about it, and wish I could but its never going to happen. Like Nu states there will always be the baggers premium added after purchase.