thesewalls
New Member
Posts โข 653
Likes โข 184
September 2007
|
How important is EDITION SIZE?, by thesewalls on Jul 1, 2008 4:25:55 GMT 1, Seems as though edition size is a way for modest collectors to bring more value to their pieces (both monetarily and intrinsically). It is always discussed, most of the time along with price. Have the gallerys and print shops brainwashed us? Does the number of a run really help determine it's value? I believe it contributes a very small amount of merit, far less than the emphasis placed. I believe many of us have gotten carried away with this element, and with the price of everything in general. Everyone is SO concerned with the official business of art. I'm not saying you don't love the images, but why? Why so much attention given to statistics? It is generally said that art collectors start with limited edition prints, than move on to originals. I have witnessed many individuals selling off their ltd ed print collection (or at least part of it) in order to fund the purchase of an OG. In the case of Banksy (or any artist where the general population is completely priced out), the ltd ed prints are all the only thing in our grasps, so the perspective is a bit of it's own beast. But for the majority of artists out there, originals are still somewhat attainable. In retrospect, for example, I wish i had laid off some of my ltd ed prints, and saved for originals...or at least heavily worked, low, varied, classic Failes. A lot of their epic prints are now considered originals, since they are so varied , and sometimes have completely different color schemes. At the same time, while some of their edition runs are super low (between 6 - 12 we'll say), and contain hand finishings, there are really 25 - 50 of that print, none of which are THAT different. And now they're doing the big runs, which is awesome for all the fans (i could care less about what it does to the value or market of the print), but it's putting them in the ltd ed print run evaluations. They were, and still are their own beast, but their last 3 big releases (my confessions, rampage, tate image) have entered them into new discussions of value and worth. I think $1250 for a 25 color Faile print is a great deal, as long as you like the image. I don't care if there are 50 of them or 500. But thats me. And thats just one recent example.
I don't mean to be at all negative towards anyone, I just mean to question what is going on with our world. Question the authority of those who officiate, and the reaction of those who stand by. 'Oh this print is good, but this much for an edition of that much?...i think i'll pass the price it too high for the edition size.' OR 'wow reasonable price, especially for how low the edition is'...pretty low blows to the scene...where's your heart at? If you like the artist and like the image, the value is completely subjective. The only time edition size really seems to come into play are on the extreme ends - where it's so low it may as well be an original, or it's so high it may as well be a poster. Haha, and then there's the whole signature thing...will leave that alone for now. I don't pretend to be an expert on this, but I am concerned with the direction the art world is taking (or at least the art world i pretend to know and surely love - street art). I look forward to any and all responses, and thank you in advance for your time and thoughts...and for reading my rant if you made it this far  I'm sure there is much I left out...please do assist...
Seems as though edition size is a way for modest collectors to bring more value to their pieces (both monetarily and intrinsically). It is always discussed, most of the time along with price. Have the gallerys and print shops brainwashed us? Does the number of a run really help determine it's value? I believe it contributes a very small amount of merit, far less than the emphasis placed. I believe many of us have gotten carried away with this element, and with the price of everything in general. Everyone is SO concerned with the official business of art. I'm not saying you don't love the images, but why? Why so much attention given to statistics? It is generally said that art collectors start with limited edition prints, than move on to originals. I have witnessed many individuals selling off their ltd ed print collection (or at least part of it) in order to fund the purchase of an OG. In the case of Banksy (or any artist where the general population is completely priced out), the ltd ed prints are all the only thing in our grasps, so the perspective is a bit of it's own beast. But for the majority of artists out there, originals are still somewhat attainable. In retrospect, for example, I wish i had laid off some of my ltd ed prints, and saved for originals...or at least heavily worked, low, varied, classic Failes. A lot of their epic prints are now considered originals, since they are so varied , and sometimes have completely different color schemes. At the same time, while some of their edition runs are super low (between 6 - 12 we'll say), and contain hand finishings, there are really 25 - 50 of that print, none of which are THAT different. And now they're doing the big runs, which is awesome for all the fans (i could care less about what it does to the value or market of the print), but it's putting them in the ltd ed print run evaluations. They were, and still are their own beast, but their last 3 big releases (my confessions, rampage, tate image) have entered them into new discussions of value and worth. I think $1250 for a 25 color Faile print is a great deal, as long as you like the image. I don't care if there are 50 of them or 500. But thats me. And thats just one recent example. I don't mean to be at all negative towards anyone, I just mean to question what is going on with our world. Question the authority of those who officiate, and the reaction of those who stand by. 'Oh this print is good, but this much for an edition of that much?...i think i'll pass the price it too high for the edition size.' OR 'wow reasonable price, especially for how low the edition is'...pretty low blows to the scene...where's your heart at? If you like the artist and like the image, the value is completely subjective. The only time edition size really seems to come into play are on the extreme ends - where it's so low it may as well be an original, or it's so high it may as well be a poster. Haha, and then there's the whole signature thing...will leave that alone for now. I don't pretend to be an expert on this, but I am concerned with the direction the art world is taking (or at least the art world i pretend to know and surely love - street art). I look forward to any and all responses, and thank you in advance for your time and thoughts...and for reading my rant if you made it this far I'm sure there is much I left out...please do assist... |
|
foreman
New Member
Posts โข 988
Likes โข 184
May 2007
|
How important is EDITION SIZE?, by foreman on Jul 1, 2008 5:05:16 GMT 1, 1.) Buy what you want to frame look at on your wall every day.
2.) Buy what you can afford.
3.) Buy because you like it and not because you think you will make money off it
follow those rules and u shouldnt have any problems...
ALSO Faile numbers their prints on the back, so once there famed, no one knows the editions size any ways! ;-)
1.) Buy what you want to frame look at on your wall every day.
2.) Buy what you can afford.
3.) Buy because you like it and not because you think you will make money off it
follow those rules and u shouldnt have any problems...
ALSO Faile numbers their prints on the back, so once there famed, no one knows the editions size any ways! ;-)
|
|
raiden
New Member
Posts โข 512
Likes โข 3
April 2008
|
How important is EDITION SIZE?, by raiden on Jul 1, 2008 6:40:46 GMT 1, As a board contributor with an economics degree, I'll break the main question of edition down very simply...
Supply & Demand.
But its unfair just to throw out "supply and demand" as the catch phrase that its become and not discuss on a more fundamental level what it means, because the interplay of supply as a function of demand and visa versa actually answers many of the reoccurring questions (and complaints) that I hear on this board.
But before I go off on my later long winded tangent, the simple answer to "How Important Is Edition Size?"
Edition size is one of the two factors governing art price: the supply side of the coin. If only two of an image exists, and four people want it, that tends to put an upward pressure on price...
You may then ask, how much of an upward pressure on price... that's entirely a function of demand.
Thus to answer your question on a theoretical level... the calculable importance of edition size depends on a function of demand.
But then, here's the debate being had on this forum that I hope to clear up... does that determine value?
The answer: Yes and Not Necessarily.
And here the verbosity begins...
To explain: Yes on a positivistic level, and not necessarily on a normative level (but I don't think the answer is an outright "no")
If you Understand positive economics, skip to #2 (I break it down really, really basically)
1) According to positive economics ("what is"), the answer is unequivocally "YES!" If Banksy released a signed open edition for 25 quid including VAT and shipping for as long as he lived, needless to say, the price of that print would not increase beyond 25 quid until Banksy died rendering them unavailable, and there were fewer prints available at 25 quid than people wanting them at 26 quid, or 27 quid, or so forth. (I could draw a supply and demand curve, for economics nerds, this is referred to
Pretty simple to understand... the positive value, meaning the objective monetary value, of that open edition Banksy print would be 25 quid (actually less as there would be people who got tired of the print, and would then unload it for a price lower than what a new Banksy of that ed. would go for.)
So then given our first example, two of an image exists, four people want it. The price of those two prints being offered are what the gallery says it is... and as a business, they want to maximize profit so they can be successful, so they'll set the price as close to what the market will bear (without going over and getting stuck with extra prints) as possible.
If two of the four who want the 2 hypothetical prints in our example, perhaps because they're rich, value their want for the print at $1,000, and the other two only value it to the tune of $100, then an omniscient gallery owner would price the print at $1,000.
This would make two buyers happy, and leave the two others would go on this message board and bitch at how unfair prices are. 
But in essence, $1,000 is the positivistic "value" of the print.
2) According, however, to normative economics ("what ought to be"), the value of a print consists of more than just money. Unfortunately, you can't quantify aesthetics! At least you can't perfectly quantify aesthetics. And no one will claim that the relative monetary values of works of art reflects their relative beauty, or aesthetic appeal!
What it does reflect, is the values of the market... and those values reflect a complexity of individual values.
Now to lay out a controversial claim... Normatively speaking, The Monetary aspects of art often enriches art collecting.
I would argue, partly because of game theory, that positivistic, monetary value considerations make art collecting more enjoyable.
Some of you may rejoice at my example of the unlimited signed edition Banksy print, but what would this really mean? How many of you bought the unlimited Tesco Soup Can on POW? (If you did, you may argue differently below) Not only would many say "so what" to this non-exclusive print because anyone could have it, but it would incrementally devalue the existing signed prints.
The game theory aspect of having something with exclusive worth has been a major impetus behind art since likely its inception, when man first laid down the first cave paintings (though in fairness, its only surmised that they had exclusive, shamanistic purpose)
Practically every major criticism of bad art centers around some concept of exceptionalism, which is barely a step from exclusivity. Think about it... unoriginality, poorly conceived, poorly executed... all these semantic assessments boil down to normative sentiments about whether an artist's talent is exclusive or common.
I'll go one step further and venture on a massive limb, and say art is the physical manifestation of the game theory of aesthetics.
That said, edition size becomes integral not just to the value of art, but to our normative understanding of that art and appreciation for it. If something is too widely released, it becomes common and often disdained for it.
Yes, on a normative level, while its hanging on your wall, the editions size, the overall value, doesn't suddenly make the print appear more vibrant or beautiful, but when faced with the glare of outside society, it does affect the overall appreciation for the piece.
As a single male, if bring a girl over, and say, "And over here is my original Banksy," (I wish!) and my appreciation for the piece increases proportionately to the amount of awed gawking the girl may exhibit - and if she happens to say "You have an original Banksy! Oh my God, I love Banksy," in such a way that I know I will score with her, then my appreciation for the piece increases exponentially!
Long story short, (and to throw my entire high minded analysis in the waste basket), the cost of a piece and its exclusivity, much like a Ferrari, helps to get you laid! Therefore it means everything!!
As a board contributor with an economics degree, I'll break the main question of edition down very simply... Supply & Demand. But its unfair just to throw out "supply and demand" as the catch phrase that its become and not discuss on a more fundamental level what it means, because the interplay of supply as a function of demand and visa versa actually answers many of the reoccurring questions (and complaints) that I hear on this board. But before I go off on my later long winded tangent, the simple answer to "How Important Is Edition Size?" Edition size is one of the two factors governing art price: the supply side of the coin. If only two of an image exists, and four people want it, that tends to put an upward pressure on price... You may then ask, how much of an upward pressure on price... that's entirely a function of demand. Thus to answer your question on a theoretical level... the calculable importance of edition size depends on a function of demand. But then, here's the debate being had on this forum that I hope to clear up... does that determine value? The answer: Yes and Not Necessarily. And here the verbosity begins... To explain: Yes on a positivistic level, and not necessarily on a normative level (but I don't think the answer is an outright "no") If you Understand positive economics, skip to #2 (I break it down really, really basically) 1) According to positive economics ("what is"), the answer is unequivocally "YES!" If Banksy released a signed open edition for 25 quid including VAT and shipping for as long as he lived, needless to say, the price of that print would not increase beyond 25 quid until Banksy died rendering them unavailable, and there were fewer prints available at 25 quid than people wanting them at 26 quid, or 27 quid, or so forth. (I could draw a supply and demand curve, for economics nerds, this is referred to Pretty simple to understand... the positive value, meaning the objective monetary value, of that open edition Banksy print would be 25 quid (actually less as there would be people who got tired of the print, and would then unload it for a price lower than what a new Banksy of that ed. would go for.) So then given our first example, two of an image exists, four people want it. The price of those two prints being offered are what the gallery says it is... and as a business, they want to maximize profit so they can be successful, so they'll set the price as close to what the market will bear (without going over and getting stuck with extra prints) as possible. If two of the four who want the 2 hypothetical prints in our example, perhaps because they're rich, value their want for the print at $1,000, and the other two only value it to the tune of $100, then an omniscient gallery owner would price the print at $1,000. This would make two buyers happy, and leave the two others would go on this message board and bitch at how unfair prices are. But in essence, $1,000 is the positivistic "value" of the print. 2) According, however, to normative economics ("what ought to be"), the value of a print consists of more than just money. Unfortunately, you can't quantify aesthetics! At least you can't perfectly quantify aesthetics. And no one will claim that the relative monetary values of works of art reflects their relative beauty, or aesthetic appeal! What it does reflect, is the values of the market... and those values reflect a complexity of individual values. Now to lay out a controversial claim... Normatively speaking, The Monetary aspects of art often enriches art collecting. I would argue, partly because of game theory, that positivistic, monetary value considerations make art collecting more enjoyable. Some of you may rejoice at my example of the unlimited signed edition Banksy print, but what would this really mean? How many of you bought the unlimited Tesco Soup Can on POW? (If you did, you may argue differently below) Not only would many say "so what" to this non-exclusive print because anyone could have it, but it would incrementally devalue the existing signed prints. The game theory aspect of having something with exclusive worth has been a major impetus behind art since likely its inception, when man first laid down the first cave paintings (though in fairness, its only surmised that they had exclusive, shamanistic purpose) Practically every major criticism of bad art centers around some concept of exceptionalism, which is barely a step from exclusivity. Think about it... unoriginality, poorly conceived, poorly executed... all these semantic assessments boil down to normative sentiments about whether an artist's talent is exclusive or common. I'll go one step further and venture on a massive limb, and say art is the physical manifestation of the game theory of aesthetics. That said, edition size becomes integral not just to the value of art, but to our normative understanding of that art and appreciation for it. If something is too widely released, it becomes common and often disdained for it. Yes, on a normative level, while its hanging on your wall, the editions size, the overall value, doesn't suddenly make the print appear more vibrant or beautiful, but when faced with the glare of outside society, it does affect the overall appreciation for the piece. As a single male, if bring a girl over, and say, "And over here is my original Banksy," (I wish!) and my appreciation for the piece increases proportionately to the amount of awed gawking the girl may exhibit - and if she happens to say "You have an original Banksy! Oh my God, I love Banksy," in such a way that I know I will score with her, then my appreciation for the piece increases exponentially! Long story short, (and to throw my entire high minded analysis in the waste basket), the cost of a piece and its exclusivity, much like a Ferrari, helps to get you laid! Therefore it means everything!! |
|
nombei
New Member
Posts โข 355
Likes โข 2
September 2006
|
How important is EDITION SIZE?, by nombei on Jul 1, 2008 7:48:44 GMT 1, haha. wasn't sure if i should bother reading all that, but it ended up being quite a good read! good job!! ;D
haha. wasn't sure if i should bother reading all that, but it ended up being quite a good read! good job!! ;D
|
|
thesewalls
New Member
Posts โข 653
Likes โข 184
September 2007
|
How important is EDITION SIZE?, by thesewalls on Jul 1, 2008 7:58:24 GMT 1, foreman - thanks for bringing it back to square one and outlining what IS important...surely not edition size i take it
raiden - thank you for the economics lecture, it is greatly appreciated (i miss school). you ever think of getting one of the better Banksy knock off canvases? if you have the Ferrari she'll surely believe it's real, and in turn will sit on your johnson. just a thought pimp master clit!
foreman - thanks for bringing it back to square one and outlining what IS important...surely not edition size i take it raiden - thank you for the economics lecture, it is greatly appreciated (i miss school). you ever think of getting one of the better Banksy knock off canvases? if you have the Ferrari she'll surely believe it's real, and in turn will sit on your johnson. just a thought pimp master clit! |
|
raiden
New Member
Posts โข 512
Likes โข 3
April 2008
|
How important is EDITION SIZE?, by raiden on Jul 1, 2008 8:09:26 GMT 1, Yes thesewalls, I've considered the knock off Banksy on ebay, but that's cheating! Really, blondes only recognize Warhol, Picasso, and now increasingly Banksy, which I think ultimately explains half of the meteoric rise in his prices...
Never forget, art can get you laid.
But I'm glad you liked the more professorial aspect of my diatribe as well.
-R
Yes thesewalls, I've considered the knock off Banksy on ebay, but that's cheating! Really, blondes only recognize Warhol, Picasso, and now increasingly Banksy, which I think ultimately explains half of the meteoric rise in his prices...
Never forget, art can get you laid.
But I'm glad you liked the more professorial aspect of my diatribe as well.
-R
|
|
|
|
How important is EDITION SIZE?, by onemandown72 on Jul 1, 2008 8:11:15 GMT 1, Raiden your everyman basic explaination at the end has made me chuckle
Raiden your everyman basic explaination at the end has made me chuckle
|
|
tricorn
New Member
Posts โข 267
Likes โข 85
August 2007
|
How important is EDITION SIZE?, by tricorn on Jul 1, 2008 8:31:47 GMT 1, so, it's not the edition size it's what you do with it that counts
so, it's not the edition size it's what you do with it that counts |
|
thesewalls
New Member
Posts โข 653
Likes โข 184
September 2007
|
How important is EDITION SIZE?, by thesewalls on Jul 1, 2008 9:02:40 GMT 1, well said, especially coming from someone who's located in the "Mother F*cking Southsea"! haha, and onemandown72 is 'outside tending his/her veg'...don't you mean VAG
thanks nombei!
well said, especially coming from someone who's located in the "Mother F*cking Southsea"! haha, and onemandown72 is 'outside tending his/her veg'...don't you mean VAG thanks nombei! |
|
Richard
Junior Member
Posts โข 1,349
Likes โข 178
September 2007
|
How important is EDITION SIZE?, by Richard on Jul 1, 2008 10:41:40 GMT 1, As a board contributor with an economics degree, I'll break the main question of edition down very simply...
I just found out I got a 2:1 in Economics from Leeds University.
Good times! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
As a board contributor with an economics degree, I'll break the main question of edition down very simply... I just found out I got a 2:1 in Economics from Leeds University. Good times! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D |
|
I'm sure there is much I left out...please do assist...
