jam
Junior Member
Posts โข 1,629
Likes โข 31
November 2006
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Copyright / Hush - The queue rumours..., by jam on May 30, 2008 17:36:00 GMT 1, I find it amusing that Hush, Mainartery, Ollys and UAC all seem to have remained noticeably silent after being called into question two weeks ago. They actually all had put up their final posts on the same day, May 17th... seems a massive coincidence, no? Add to that the other 'coincidences' such as matching IPs and big upping Hush every chance they got and it would appear the stars must have aligned and the heavens parted to bring these four personalities together and all to benefit one person. Anthony from Opus claims to have "personally spoken to two of these members in the past" and that "neither is Hush"... but I would expect at least one of them would have responded against the claims in those couple weeks if they were unfounded.
banksyforum.proboards82.com/index.cgi?action=viewprofile&user=hush banksyforum.proboards82.com/index.cgi?action=viewprofile&user=mainartery banksyforum.proboards82.com/index.cgi?action=viewprofile&user=ollys banksyforum.proboards82.com/index.cgi?action=viewprofile&user=uac
Anyone want to chip in to a reward fund to the first person that is able capture all four of these characters in a single photograph? (one person with multiple personalities doesn't count) Surely Mainartery, Ollys and UAC are such massive fans of Hush that they would have been at Opus... anyone have a photo of one of them?
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Copyright / Hush - The queue rumours..., by elvisreturns on May 30, 2008 17:39:28 GMT 1, Very very poor show organisation Queued in the rain.. told all prints sold Flippers got all the Hush Asking ppl to give them ยฃ150 for a print that hasn't been even created!! ? WTF? Very VERY badly done Pop will eat itself? Street art hit a new low last night I hope that the flippers that got these prints enjoy their profit B O L L O X
Street art was alive and well last night,you my friend were at the wrong place TLSG had the legend Doze in exhibition instead you lot went to see the new kids on the block
Very very poor show organisation Queued in the rain.. told all prints sold Flippers got all the Hush Asking ppl to give them ยฃ150 for a print that hasn't been even created!! ? WTF? Very VERY badly done Pop will eat itself? Street art hit a new low last night I hope that the flippers that got these prints enjoy their profit B O L L O X Street art was alive and well last night,you my friend were at the wrong place TLSG had the legend Doze in exhibition instead you lot went to see the new kids on the block
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spirit
Junior Member
Posts โข 2,956
Likes โข 516
August 2007
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Copyright / Hush - The queue rumours..., by spirit on May 30, 2008 17:41:07 GMT 1, Can't believe Opus haven't responded to this thread despite logging on to the forum multiple times today - in fact they are online now...
Can't believe Opus haven't responded to this thread despite logging on to the forum multiple times today - in fact they are online now...
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Copyright / Hush - The queue rumours..., by elvisreturns on May 30, 2008 17:45:20 GMT 1, Can't believe Opus haven't responded to this thread despite logging on to the forum multiple times today - in fact they are online now...
i can't beleive people actually paid ยฃ150 for something they have not seen and it is non refundable. good luck to opus if people are that desperate they would hand over that kind of cash without a single clue as to what they will end up with
Can't believe Opus haven't responded to this thread despite logging on to the forum multiple times today - in fact they are online now... i can't beleive people actually paid ยฃ150 for something they have not seen and it is non refundable. good luck to opus if people are that desperate they would hand over that kind of cash without a single clue as to what they will end up with
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goffy
Junior Member
Posts โข 1,401
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November 2006
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Copyright / Hush - The queue rumours..., by goffy on May 30, 2008 17:47:25 GMT 1, They are on quick enough when they are trying to sell something. It really is very poor that they haven't responded.
They are on quick enough when they are trying to sell something. It really is very poor that they haven't responded.
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Copyright / Hush - The queue rumours..., by manty on May 30, 2008 17:49:40 GMT 1, Can't believe Opus haven't responded to this thread despite logging on to the forum multiple times today - in fact they are online now... i can't beleive people actually paid ยฃ150 for something they have not seen and it is non refundable. without a single clue as to what they will end up with
I can, people here do it on pretty much every online release, they buy before they see it, keep it in a tube under their bed, and try to flog it some day in the future :-)
Can't believe Opus haven't responded to this thread despite logging on to the forum multiple times today - in fact they are online now... i can't beleive people actually paid ยฃ150 for something they have not seen and it is non refundable. without a single clue as to what they will end up with I can, people here do it on pretty much every online release, they buy before they see it, keep it in a tube under their bed, and try to flog it some day in the future :-)
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Copyright / Hush - The queue rumours..., by doublehelix on May 30, 2008 17:54:36 GMT 1, Yup, just about sums things up manty.
Yup, just about sums things up manty.
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moleman
Junior Member
Posts โข 1,866
Likes โข 0
March 2008
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Copyright / Hush - The queue rumours..., by moleman on May 30, 2008 18:02:06 GMT 1, im pming think all should
im pming think all should
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Copyright / Hush - The queue rumours..., by Guest on May 30, 2008 18:03:53 GMT 1, time of the month aye moleman?
time of the month aye moleman?
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idris
New Member
Posts โข 564
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February 2008
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Copyright / Hush - The queue rumours..., by idris on May 30, 2008 18:34:47 GMT 1, fuuuuuuuck me. just read the whole thread!! opus - you bunch of wankers!!!
fuuuuuuuck me. just read the whole thread!! opus - you bunch of wankers!!!
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Copyright / Hush - The queue rumours..., by Guest on May 30, 2008 18:43:51 GMT 1, fuuuuuuuck me. just read the whole thread!! opus - you bunch of wankers!!!
not on your christmas card list idris
fuuuuuuuck me. just read the whole thread!! opus - you bunch of wankers!!! not on your christmas card list idris
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dinomaa
New Member
Posts โข 203
Likes โข 2
February 2008
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Copyright / Hush - The queue rumours..., by dinomaa on May 30, 2008 18:47:37 GMT 1, opus - you bunch of wankers!!!
I posted a thread with that title last night when I got in not realising it was been discussed here.
opus - you bunch of wankers!!! I posted a thread with that title last night when I got in not realising it was been discussed here.
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Copyright / Hush - The queue rumours..., by bobbyt23 on May 30, 2008 19:16:08 GMT 1,
I did see this in a bin outside the gallery:
I did see this in a bin outside the gallery:
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craigf
Full Member
Posts โข 8,557
Likes โข 846
May 2007
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Copyright / Hush - The queue rumours..., by craigf on May 30, 2008 19:29:30 GMT 1, Just got back from work and read through the comments. Some I agree with, others not so sure, but from my perspective
1) Handing out numbers if the number of prints had been as previously indicated would have been good as people didn't have to stand in a queue for hours in the rain. I had a number and my first thought was great as I could then walk around town for a while.
2) I'm not sure about the comments of the 40 year olds aggrssively pushing in. If this refers to the first people through the door they all had been there earlier and had numbers so it wasn't really pushing in. There was one guy with short grey hair who tried his luck and was told to queue with everyone else. I guess it may not have been clear to people who had been queuing for some time that this was the case (as happened one time at TSLG)
3) First 10 flippers, hmm I don't think so. I noticed one flipper (the German lady and her son so maybe that's two and actually they were numbers 10 and 11!), but other than that I recognised a lot of people, chatted to most at the front, but didn't recognise them as flippers. At the last TSLG show the flippers were very evident.
4) Romany's mates - they had low numbers themselves so although they may not have got T&T's they would have got a print either way. If asked in by Hush and early supporters it seems fair that they were let in (and as I said they had low numbers)
5) Not viewing the art - I think everyone inside spent 1 hour+ looking at the Hush work waiting to pay. I got one of the last Hush prints, popped down stairs to look at the Copyright pieces and decided to make a quick exit as I could see it kicking off when the people who had been waiting for many hours in the rain or in the gallery were told there was nothing left. I'm going back tomorrow to have a better look in a nice quiet empty gallery.
I think Opus should post their side of the story and face the music, but it won't achieve that much (but an apology / explanation is much better than the sound of tumbleweed).
For those of you I saw and chatted in the queue, nice to meet you all. For those of you left with a bitter taste in your mouths I can understand 100% why and agree don't bid on the auctions (flippers only buy what they can make a quick profit on, no market, no profit).
Just got back from work and read through the comments. Some I agree with, others not so sure, but from my perspective
1) Handing out numbers if the number of prints had been as previously indicated would have been good as people didn't have to stand in a queue for hours in the rain. I had a number and my first thought was great as I could then walk around town for a while.
2) I'm not sure about the comments of the 40 year olds aggrssively pushing in. If this refers to the first people through the door they all had been there earlier and had numbers so it wasn't really pushing in. There was one guy with short grey hair who tried his luck and was told to queue with everyone else. I guess it may not have been clear to people who had been queuing for some time that this was the case (as happened one time at TSLG)
3) First 10 flippers, hmm I don't think so. I noticed one flipper (the German lady and her son so maybe that's two and actually they were numbers 10 and 11!), but other than that I recognised a lot of people, chatted to most at the front, but didn't recognise them as flippers. At the last TSLG show the flippers were very evident.
4) Romany's mates - they had low numbers themselves so although they may not have got T&T's they would have got a print either way. If asked in by Hush and early supporters it seems fair that they were let in (and as I said they had low numbers)
5) Not viewing the art - I think everyone inside spent 1 hour+ looking at the Hush work waiting to pay. I got one of the last Hush prints, popped down stairs to look at the Copyright pieces and decided to make a quick exit as I could see it kicking off when the people who had been waiting for many hours in the rain or in the gallery were told there was nothing left. I'm going back tomorrow to have a better look in a nice quiet empty gallery.
I think Opus should post their side of the story and face the music, but it won't achieve that much (but an apology / explanation is much better than the sound of tumbleweed).
For those of you I saw and chatted in the queue, nice to meet you all. For those of you left with a bitter taste in your mouths I can understand 100% why and agree don't bid on the auctions (flippers only buy what they can make a quick profit on, no market, no profit).
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Copyright / Hush - The queue rumours..., by Guest on May 30, 2008 19:56:51 GMT 1, giving numbers out, and then allowing people to go and wander around town to then come back just before the opening, and seemingly push in front of people that had been queuing for sometime, in hindsight must have been a very bad move on behalf of the gallery. and it does seem as quiet a few prints were sold to flippers if you check how many have appeared on ebay.
giving numbers out, and then allowing people to go and wander around town to then come back just before the opening, and seemingly push in front of people that had been queuing for sometime, in hindsight must have been a very bad move on behalf of the gallery. and it does seem as quiet a few prints were sold to flippers if you check how many have appeared on ebay.
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dinomaa
New Member
Posts โข 203
Likes โข 2
February 2008
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Copyright / Hush - The queue rumours..., by dinomaa on May 30, 2008 20:38:57 GMT 1, Some people were told that the tickets meant that you were going to get a print but that you would have to cue again and that the number on your ticket meant nothing!?! WTF how confusing can you get.
In the end it was a simple well executed con job, get people to cue for hours - when they get in they find they can't get the prints they wanted, but not wanting to waste hours of queuing in the rain they will buy something else.
Some people were told that the tickets meant that you were going to get a print but that you would have to cue again and that the number on your ticket meant nothing!?! WTF how confusing can you get.
In the end it was a simple well executed con job, get people to cue for hours - when they get in they find they can't get the prints they wanted, but not wanting to waste hours of queuing in the rain they will buy something else.
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Copyright / Hush - The queue rumours..., by master on May 30, 2008 21:10:08 GMT 1, Hi all, manage to calm down a little after yesterday's blast. Have a one question for all of you who got a geisha print. Did you get COA with this or not? I only have receipt of what I bought but no COA. Very interesting as one on ebay is showing totally different COA then the one I've got. I would love to know if rest of you got the same!!!
Hi all, manage to calm down a little after yesterday's blast. Have a one question for all of you who got a geisha print. Did you get COA with this or not? I only have receipt of what I bought but no COA. Very interesting as one on ebay is showing totally different COA then the one I've got. I would love to know if rest of you got the same!!!
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dinomaa
New Member
Posts โข 203
Likes โข 2
February 2008
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Copyright / Hush - The queue rumours..., by dinomaa on May 30, 2008 21:14:22 GMT 1, Hi all, manage to calm down a little after yesterday's blast. Have a one question for all of you who got a geisha print. Did you get COA with this or not? I only have receipt of what I bought but no COA. Very interesting as one on ebay is showing totally different COA then the one I've got. I would love to know if rest of you got the same!!!
The COA for the Geisha I got was in a brown envelope taped to the outside of the tube.
Hi all, manage to calm down a little after yesterday's blast. Have a one question for all of you who got a geisha print. Did you get COA with this or not? I only have receipt of what I bought but no COA. Very interesting as one on ebay is showing totally different COA then the one I've got. I would love to know if rest of you got the same!!! The COA for the Geisha I got was in a brown envelope taped to the outside of the tube.
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Copyright / Hush - The queue rumours..., by Guest on May 31, 2008 0:14:23 GMT 1, Some people were told that the tickets meant that you were going to get a print but that you would have to cue again and that the number on your ticket meant nothing!?! WTF how confusing can you get. In the end it was a simple well executed con job, get people to cue for hours - when they get in they find they can't get the prints they wanted, but not wanting to waste hours of queuing in the rain they will buy something else.
if thats the case, they really deserve a coating.
Some people were told that the tickets meant that you were going to get a print but that you would have to cue again and that the number on your ticket meant nothing!?! WTF how confusing can you get. In the end it was a simple well executed con job, get people to cue for hours - when they get in they find they can't get the prints they wanted, but not wanting to waste hours of queuing in the rain they will buy something else. if thats the case, they really deserve a coating.
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aginghippie
New Member
Posts โข 211
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December 2007
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Copyright / Hush - The queue rumours..., by aginghippie on May 31, 2008 2:08:59 GMT 1, So what's a gallery to do? Any sane gallery will look after good clients first because that's who keeps them in business.
That said what is the best way to manage a queue? I think handing out tickets is a good idea but it becomes problematic when it's a multiple release. BRP only issued a single print so it was easy to know if you were likely to get a print. Opus had multiple releases so how many tickets do you hand out; enough for one particular print like red GG, enough for a Copyright deck, enough for a red GG and a Copyright deck, what's the permutation? And what happens when someone who has queued can't get the print or canvas they wanted because those were after sold out before his ticket came up?
You could issue a ticket granting a particular item but then you are really just selling the works off early. There is a lot of complaining (and I would have been pissed off too) but what is the solution, anyone got any answers because I bet a lot of galleries would like to know?
So what's a gallery to do? Any sane gallery will look after good clients first because that's who keeps them in business.
That said what is the best way to manage a queue? I think handing out tickets is a good idea but it becomes problematic when it's a multiple release. BRP only issued a single print so it was easy to know if you were likely to get a print. Opus had multiple releases so how many tickets do you hand out; enough for one particular print like red GG, enough for a Copyright deck, enough for a red GG and a Copyright deck, what's the permutation? And what happens when someone who has queued can't get the print or canvas they wanted because those were after sold out before his ticket came up?
You could issue a ticket granting a particular item but then you are really just selling the works off early. There is a lot of complaining (and I would have been pissed off too) but what is the solution, anyone got any answers because I bet a lot of galleries would like to know?
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moleman
Junior Member
Posts โข 1,866
Likes โข 0
March 2008
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Copyright / Hush - The queue rumours..., by moleman on May 31, 2008 7:50:09 GMT 1, tickets to first fifty or hundred after that you take your chance. because first fifty or hundred (more like fifty want something and have been there a while normallysince the early hours. blek was multiple release but brp handed out the brucie of the first 50 can buy the book. They also restocked cheaper canvases for the public release. Im sure brp done plenty of preveiw selling but when i got in there was still stuff in there for a grand up. Which although i cant buy is nice to see. I know some will always be disapointed but the point that there were not what was stated is a sham. I know you have loyallty although i have never got any from a gallery and rthey say that some people have been buying there stuff for years . But in a case like that its up to hush /opus to hand them out stuff that was not advertised for sale to jo public. When people turn up at 4 and que for 2 hours or less sorry if this sounds harsh you picked your fate you get what you can but being there for 8 or 10 hours. wether they let you leave or not makes no difference you deserve first pick. Most of the people in the top 15 would have sat there all day there used to it it was opus choicee to let people leave and i remember being told be back by 6 we will sort out the que then ( i was back by 4) when there were 5 wet people in the que still no word i see
tickets to first fifty or hundred after that you take your chance. because first fifty or hundred (more like fifty want something and have been there a while normallysince the early hours. blek was multiple release but brp handed out the brucie of the first 50 can buy the book. They also restocked cheaper canvases for the public release. Im sure brp done plenty of preveiw selling but when i got in there was still stuff in there for a grand up. Which although i cant buy is nice to see. I know some will always be disapointed but the point that there were not what was stated is a sham. I know you have loyallty although i have never got any from a gallery and rthey say that some people have been buying there stuff for years . But in a case like that its up to hush /opus to hand them out stuff that was not advertised for sale to jo public. When people turn up at 4 and que for 2 hours or less sorry if this sounds harsh you picked your fate you get what you can but being there for 8 or 10 hours. wether they let you leave or not makes no difference you deserve first pick. Most of the people in the top 15 would have sat there all day there used to it it was opus choicee to let people leave and i remember being told be back by 6 we will sort out the que then ( i was back by 4) when there were 5 wet people in the que still no word i see
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paul
New Member
Posts โข 105
Likes โข 24
October 2006
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Copyright / Hush - The queue rumours..., by paul on May 31, 2008 9:32:42 GMT 1, IMO it is all about communication - if people had been told the situation as they arrived [even a note on the door periodically updated] they could make a decision on whether to wait in the queue or not. With no communication people waited a long time and then felt frustrated. The question was why couldn't you tell us this "X hours ago". There were people whose job was to stand inside at the door - not too hard to pop out periodically and update people. Makes it feel like they actually don't care.
IMO it is all about communication - if people had been told the situation as they arrived [even a note on the door periodically updated] they could make a decision on whether to wait in the queue or not. With no communication people waited a long time and then felt frustrated. The question was why couldn't you tell us this "X hours ago". There were people whose job was to stand inside at the door - not too hard to pop out periodically and update people. Makes it feel like they actually don't care.
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Copyright / Hush - The queue rumours..., by dh on May 31, 2008 9:49:40 GMT 1, Mine is on ebay! I have no problem admitting it as i do not feel like I want to keep it after such a poor show by Opus, I will use the money to put towards my Nick Walker addiction. I have also emailed opus and told them what i am doing as i could not care less if they ban me.
Just want to add I have nothing against Hush and I think he has produced some of the best prints this year, its just been spoilt by Opus. Also I wish i bought a copyright print as it was'nt until after I had left the que that i saw them in the flesh, they were much better than I thought.
Mine is on ebay! I have no problem admitting it as i do not feel like I want to keep it after such a poor show by Opus, I will use the money to put towards my Nick Walker addiction. I have also emailed opus and told them what i am doing as i could not care less if they ban me.
Just want to add I have nothing against Hush and I think he has produced some of the best prints this year, its just been spoilt by Opus. Also I wish i bought a copyright print as it was'nt until after I had left the que that i saw them in the flesh, they were much better than I thought.
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savilerogue
New Member
Posts โข 326
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August 2007
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Copyright / Hush - The queue rumours..., by savilerogue on May 31, 2008 10:13:26 GMT 1, Bloody hell, I've only just noticed this thread. I usually skip threads about 2nd-rate artists like these two.
ยฃ4.5K!?? Someone, somewhere, is laughing his arse off.
Glad I never bothered with this, sounds like this kind of shambles is becoming all-too frequent.
Bloody hell, I've only just noticed this thread. I usually skip threads about 2nd-rate artists like these two.
ยฃ4.5K!?? Someone, somewhere, is laughing his arse off.
Glad I never bothered with this, sounds like this kind of shambles is becoming all-too frequent.
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Copyright / Hush - The queue rumours..., by buffin on May 31, 2008 10:25:50 GMT 1, After the thread before the show and the heads up from Stuey and Jam etc I decided to give this one a miss. Looks like I have to thank those guys again from what I read. Had a great day visiting various other galleries instead.
Its a bit of a leap of faith to pay ยฃ150 non refundable after all that isn't it? I know how you feel though as you don't want to have wasted all that time in the cold and wet for nothing.
After the thread before the show and the heads up from Stuey and Jam etc I decided to give this one a miss. Looks like I have to thank those guys again from what I read. Had a great day visiting various other galleries instead.
Its a bit of a leap of faith to pay ยฃ150 non refundable after all that isn't it? I know how you feel though as you don't want to have wasted all that time in the cold and wet for nothing.
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moleman
Junior Member
Posts โข 1,866
Likes โข 0
March 2008
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Copyright / Hush - The queue rumours..., by moleman on May 31, 2008 10:29:59 GMT 1, good on you dave stand tall big man
good on you dave stand tall big man
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nadir
New Member
Posts โข 87
Likes โข 0
December 2007
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Copyright / Hush - The queue rumours..., by nadir on May 31, 2008 14:33:42 GMT 1, There was one guy with short grey hair who tried his luck and was told to queue with everyone else. I noticed one flipper (the German lady and her son so maybe that's two and actually they were numbers 10 and 11!).
Funny. I was near the front of the queue for the 'Steal From Work' show. Not only was there a German lady and her son right at the front, but there was also a guy with short grey hair looking shifty like he wanted to push in before mooching to the back. Coincidence?
There was one guy with short grey hair who tried his luck and was told to queue with everyone else. I noticed one flipper (the German lady and her son so maybe that's two and actually they were numbers 10 and 11!). Funny. I was near the front of the queue for the 'Steal From Work' show. Not only was there a German lady and her son right at the front, but there was also a guy with short grey hair looking shifty like he wanted to push in before mooching to the back. Coincidence?
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robertlondon
New Member
Posts โข 193
Likes โข 13
June 2006
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Copyright / Hush - The queue rumours..., by robertlondon on May 31, 2008 14:45:10 GMT 1, Bloody hell, I've only just noticed this thread. I usually skip threads about 2nd-rate artists like these two. ยฃ4.5K!?? Someone, somewhere, is laughing his arse off. Glad I never bothered with this, sounds like this kind of shambles is becoming all-too frequent.
...surely you meant 3rd-rate ?
Bloody hell, I've only just noticed this thread. I usually skip threads about 2nd-rate artists like these two. ยฃ4.5K!?? Someone, somewhere, is laughing his arse off. Glad I never bothered with this, sounds like this kind of shambles is becoming all-too frequent. ...surely you meant 3rd-rate ?
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Copyright / Hush - The queue rumours..., by dogant on May 31, 2008 15:01:07 GMT 1, There was one guy with short grey hair who tried his luck and was told to queue with everyone else. I noticed one flipper (the German lady and her son so maybe that's two and actually they were numbers 10 and 11!). Funny. I was near the front of the queue for the 'Steal From Work' show. Not only was there a German lady and her son right at the front, but there was also a guy with short grey hair looking shifty like he wanted to push in before mooching to the back. Coincidence?
Agreed....the old guy with the short hair tried to push in @ the BRP Print show - and was told to get to the back...
The same guy was hovering around the front door at 6.30 - cheaky fucker
There was one guy with short grey hair who tried his luck and was told to queue with everyone else. I noticed one flipper (the German lady and her son so maybe that's two and actually they were numbers 10 and 11!). Funny. I was near the front of the queue for the 'Steal From Work' show. Not only was there a German lady and her son right at the front, but there was also a guy with short grey hair looking shifty like he wanted to push in before mooching to the back. Coincidence? Agreed....the old guy with the short hair tried to push in @ the BRP Print show - and was told to get to the back... The same guy was hovering around the front door at 6.30 - cheaky fucker
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ruat caelum
New Member
Posts โข 110
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June 2007
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Copyright / Hush - The queue rumours..., by ruat caelum on May 31, 2008 15:05:54 GMT 1, After the thread before the show and the heads up from Stuey and Jam etc I decided to give this one a miss. Looks like I have to thank those guys again from what I read. Had a great day visiting various other galleries instead. Its a bit of a leap of faith to pay ยฃ150 non refundable after all that isn't it? I know how you feel though as you don't want to have wasted all that time in the cold and wet for nothing.
Why not just take names, contact people when new prints are ready, and offer them a first right of refusal?
ยฃ150 up front and non-refundable? Even if you don't like the new work? What the fuck is that about?
Is Opus Underground now in the business of extracting interest-free loans from its own customers?
I wonder how fun it is coming up with different ways of shafting people.
After the thread before the show and the heads up from Stuey and Jam etc I decided to give this one a miss. Looks like I have to thank those guys again from what I read. Had a great day visiting various other galleries instead. Its a bit of a leap of faith to pay ยฃ150 non refundable after all that isn't it? I know how you feel though as you don't want to have wasted all that time in the cold and wet for nothing. Why not just take names, contact people when new prints are ready, and offer them a first right of refusal? ยฃ150 up front and non-refundable? Even if you don't like the new work? What the fu ck is that about? Is Opus Underground now in the business of extracting interest-free loans from its own customers? I wonder how fun it is coming up with different ways of shafting people.
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