[nex]

Hi all, arranging sales and no longer use PayPal - they messed me around big time a few years back and I swore to never use them again - any alternatives?

I’ve come across Wise - any ideas?

cheers

[irl1]

May 3, 2023 2:27:34 GMT 1 nex said:

Hi all, arranging sales and no longer use PayPal - they messed me around big time a few years back and I swore to never use them again - any alternatives?

I’ve come across Wise - any ideas?

cheers

I was told by a user on here Wise is okay and a lot cheaper then paypal.

[its all about me]

May 3, 2023 2:27:34 GMT 1 nex said:

Hi all, arranging sales and no longer use PayPal - they messed me around big time a few years back and I swore to never use them again - any alternatives?

I’ve come across Wise - any ideas?

cheers

As I understand it, Wise is just a means of paying someone; like a debit card. It gives no guarantees or help to the buyer or seller if something goes wrong. It's basically the same as a direct bank transfer.  OK if you know and trust the person you are dealing with. But if you have any doubts, then no.   

[nex]

I guess if there’s anyone left here who’s previously done a deal with me - perhaps they could respond here - so ppl
Know I’m trustworthy?

[rbt]

Wire transfer.

[Riotcops]

Everyone always raves about PP for buyer and sellers protection. I've been jerked around by PP so many times, they're awful. Should only be doing deals that feel right with a person you've established dialogue with.

Then wire transfer or Wise also works great.

[Theories 123]

May 3, 2023 11:57:28 GMT 1 its all about me said:

May 3, 2023 2:27:34 GMT 1 nex said:

Hi all, arranging sales and no longer use PayPal - they messed me around big time a few years back and I swore to never use them again - any alternatives?

I’ve come across Wise - any ideas?

cheers

As I understand it, Wise is just a means of paying someone; like a debit card. It gives no guarantees or help to the buyer or seller if something goes wrong. It's basically the same as a direct bank transfer.  OK if you know and trust the person you are dealing with. But if you have any doubts, then no.   

Wise has a very good exchange rate from my experience, significantly better than PayPal so worth considering if you're purchasing using a different currency. It's also a lot faster than a standard bank transfer as they use an account local to the recipient to transfer from.
As you've said though, there is no buyers protection so due diligence still required. Get references, insure shipments.

[Zippy]

May 3, 2023 15:07:41 GMT 1 nex said:

I guess if there’s anyone left here who’s previously done a deal with me - perhaps they could respond here - so ppl
Know I’m trustworthy?

I can certainly vouch for Nex. If the buyer is in London, I am happy to help out with meeting up / sending on the money etc

[cemltz]

Insurance costs money - so any form of "protection" will require a fee be paid by the seller, buyer, or both. That's eBay, Paypal, Venmo can do it (I think), etc.

The main issue is that the vast majority of the risk is borne by the buyer. They send off 100% of the payment (and thus hold 100% of the risk) in hope of getting the goods. This is how it has always been, so sellers are not really incentivized to change things. There was a thread on here a while back about folks trying to use some alternative arrangements, and I was actually a bit surprised at the outrage against the entire concept. It was mainly sellers complaining that anything less than full payment up front was sacrilege.

From a risk balancing perspective, assuming buyers and sellers are equally trustworthy human beings, the pareto optimal way to buy a non-divisible good worth $100 is as follows:
- Buyer sends seller $50. He is $50 at risk now, or 50% of transaction value.
- Seller sends buyer $100 non-divisible good. He is now $50 at risk. Technically it is not quite 50%, because he has sellers' details and knowledge that he can pay at least something. But whatever.
- Buyer send seller $50. All is square, no more risk.

In this example, the seller and the buyer had the same level of risk and trust requirement. But all of you are reading it and thinking "No freaking way am I sending something to someone who hasn't paid for it!" That's just human nature...

What if I said, "I'll buy that $100 bill off you for this piece of art"? Do I have to send you the art before you send me the $100 bill? What is the difference?

[surge]

I love crypto and prefer bitcoin or eth

[dotdot]

nex , i'm of the same sentiment wrt paypal - questionable ethics ... but what choice do you/we have.

wire ?

your bank should be able to offer something (for a cut , of course) then you have some kind of come back.
unless of course your bank ...is new ! (see below)

pp - no such luck

wise - well they're new - alas with new comes new vibes ala - no service to speak of and and t & cs which will be lengthy - to the extent that you'll be back to sq 1 in no time.

...wire.

..

[G$]

May 3, 2023 17:42:26 GMT 1 cemltz said:

Insurance costs money - so any form of "protection" will require a fee be paid by the seller, buyer, or both. That's eBay, Paypal, Venmo can do it (I think), etc.

......

I wish US taxpayers understood this,  before allowing the FDIC to "magically" insure bank accounts up to new unlimited dollar amounts. Point is, insurance always costs money. 

Pardon the interruption. 

[its all about me]

May 3, 2023 17:42:26 GMT 1 cemltz said:

Insurance costs money - so any form of "protection" will require a fee be paid by the seller, buyer, or both. That's eBay, Paypal, Venmo can do it (I think), etc.

The main issue is that the vast majority of the risk is borne by the buyer. They send off 100% of the payment (and thus hold 100% of the risk) in hope of getting the goods. This is how it has always been, so sellers are not really incentivized to change things. There was a thread on here a while back about folks trying to use some alternative arrangements, and I was actually a bit surprised at the outrage against the entire concept. It was mainly sellers complaining that anything less than full payment up front was sacrilege.

From a risk balancing perspective, assuming buyers and sellers are equally trustworthy human beings, the pareto optimal way to buy a non-divisible good worth $100 is as follows:
- Buyer sends seller $50. He is $50 at risk now, or 50% of transaction value.
- Seller sends buyer $100 non-divisible good. He is now $50 at risk. Technically it is not quite 50%, because he has sellers' details and knowledge that he can pay at least something. But whatever.
- Buyer send seller $50. All is square, no more risk.

In this example, the seller and the buyer had the same level of risk and trust requirement. But all of you are reading it and thinking "No freaking way am I sending something to someone who hasn't paid for it!" That's just human nature...

What if I said, "I'll buy that $100 bill off you for this piece of art"? Do I have to send you the art before you send me the $100 bill? What is the difference?

That sounds like a terrible idea to me.  That would simply encourage unscrupulous people to rip you off.   

You sell something for 4K.  

You receive 2K.  

You send the item to the buyer.  

You don't hear from buyer again, despite you sending him reminders. 

Buyers gets a 4K artwork for 2K.  

Buyer repeats process over and over again. 

[cemltz]

May 3, 2023 18:07:31 GMT 1 its all about me said:

May 3, 2023 17:42:26 GMT 1 cemltz said:

That sounds like a terrible idea to me.  That would simply encourage unscrupulous people to rip you off.   

You sell something for 4K.  

You receive 2K.  

You send the item to the buyer.  

You don't hear from buyer again, despite you sending him reminders. 

Buyers gets a 4K artwork for 2K.  

Buyer repeats process over and over again. 

And thus, a perfect example of the "human nature" element I spoke of.

Using exactly your example, just changing the bolded text:

You sell something for 4K.

You receive 4K.

You don't send the item to the buyer.

They don't hear from you again, despite them sending you reminders.

You get 4K cash for 0K.

You repeat process over and over again.

In your example, you get screwed out of 2K. That is the max anyone can be screwed. In my example I get screwed out of 4K. So which one has the most risk?

[its all about me]

May 3, 2023 18:16:19 GMT 1 cemltz said:

May 3, 2023 18:07:31 GMT 1 its all about me said:

That sounds like a terrible idea to me.  That would simply encourage unscrupulous people to rip you off.   

You sell something for 4K.  

You receive 2K.  

You send the item to the buyer.  

You don't hear from buyer again, despite you sending him reminders. 

Buyers gets a 4K artwork for 2K.  

Buyer repeats process over and over again. 

And thus, a perfect example of the "human nature" element I spoke of.

Using exactly your example, just changing the bolded text:

You sell something for 4K.

You receive 4K.

You don't send the item to the buyer.

They don't hear from you again, despite them sending you reminders.

You get 4K cash for 0K.

You repeat process over and over again.

In your example, you get screwed out of 2K. That is the max anyone can be screwed. In my example I get screwed out of 4K. So which one has the most risk?

Except, if you use PayPal or similar, you the buyer, wouldn't lose any money at all.

In my example, the seller would lose 2K and the buyer would effectively be 2K better off - and PayPal would do nothing about it.   

[cemltz]

May 3, 2023 18:21:37 GMT 1 its all about me said:

May 3, 2023 18:16:19 GMT 1 cemltz said:

Except, if you use PayPal or similar, you the buyer, wouldn't lose any money at all.

In my example, the seller would lose 2K and the buyer would effectively be 2K better off - and PayPal would do nothing about it.   

Sure, if you want to change the situation 100%, than it will play out differently. The entire purpose of the example was a discussion of transactions outside of "PayPal or similar."

[nex]

May 3, 2023 18:02:06 GMT 1 dotdot said:

nex , i'm of the same sentiment wrt paypal - questionable ethics ... but what choice do you/we have.

wire ?

your bank should be able to offer something (for a cut , of course) then you have some kind of come back.
unless of course your bank ...is new ! (see below)

pp - no such luck

wise - well they're new - alas with new comes new vibes ala - no service to speak of and and t & cs which will be lengthy - to the extent that you'll be back to sq 1 in no time.

...wire.

..

 You’re still here !!!!

could you vouch for my trustworthy- ness?

[nex]

May 3, 2023 16:32:13 GMT 1 Zippy said:

May 3, 2023 15:07:41 GMT 1 nex said:

I guess if there’s anyone left here who’s previously done a deal with me - perhaps they could respond here - so ppl
Know I’m trustworthy?

I can certainly vouch for Nex. If the buyer is in London, I am happy to help out with meeting up / sending on the money etc

many thanks Zippy good to see you here dude