[manchestermike]

Discuss...

Personally I've been a fan for a while and am the proud owner of a number of signed prints.

But following discussons with a few friends the debate "have his latest stunts (the Paris Hilton one especially) been less about art and subversion and more about Banksy...?" has been a hot one...

Any views?

[abeautifulnight]

I have to agree there has been a change. I'm a fan for a long time but things are getting a little stale.

The past couple of prints seem to be re-hashed. Nothing new.
There is a different direction in LA but wouldn't it have been really intersting to see him release to cops kissing and seen what happens. Now he's Bono's fan, Africa and War. These are easy targets.We've seen it all before. He's so prolific that he could never do any new work and still release different print every couple of months.

Soup can was great when it came out but did it need to come out again as a four set with a choice of gold or silver.

Paris Hilton, she just doing what she needs to do. Is there really a great difference between her and Brad Pitt when he was 24. Remember he was the guy from the Levi's ad, a bit part player in Dallas and Thelma & Louise. Now he's a cool guy but lets be fair.

Disney land was a cool stunt but a stunt none the less.

I am saddened by so many people on this board who are taking advantage of people. I know this is a fan site but I think its hard to believe everyone here has collections. I own 7 prints 4 signed. But its to many I'm keeping the ones I love and then getting rid to friends and family prehaps to eventually buy a christ with shopping and then I'm out unless something amazing happens - there are other artists.

[monochrome]

you could say the timing of the Paris and Disneyland stunts were perfect for the LA show.

you could say, they were pointers in the direction of further 'stunts' such as the elephant.

people still need to be told about africa, whether it's Bono, Ali Bongo or Banksy - the masses still need to be told. i'm all for that.

i think the issues of capitalism, or anti capitalism are more worrying as we all know Banksy must be worth a tidy few bob now - the new soup cans alone would have brought in a quarter of a million alone!!

personally though, i still buy his art - well the stuff i like. i don't like the folk who want to buy everything (including shitty CDs) as they just seem to be a little obsessed and probably are very very rich themselves, they are losing sight of the meaning of the art i think.

[gm]

"have his latest stunts (the Paris Hilton one especially) been less about art and subversion and more about Banksy...?"

In a word, yes. To me, the recent stunts have been purely to get his name to more people in the states as advance publicity for Barely Legal. It worked very well.

What's been on my mind lately is more that he may be looking down his nose at his fans. What do you think was going through his mind as he watched people queueing up to buy a print called "i can't believe you morons actually buy this s**t"?

Did the person who not too long ago handed Laz 45grand for a painting called "keep it real" stop and think about the irony of what they were doing?

Was it really Paris Hilton who got 'punked', or was it the mugs who clamoured to spend hundreds of quids on ebay copies?

And the work is priced ever higher, way out of the reach of the people who have been really inspired by what he's done in the past, and the people who've put him where he is now.

As another *icon* once said, many years ago: "Ever get the feeling you've been cheated?"

Banksy's been quoted elsewhere on this forum as saying something like "when people buy this stuff they're funding my illegal street work" (I can't be bothered searching through all the threads to find out exactly what the quote said).

I tell ya what, Banksy... after all the dosh you've made in LA these past few days I expect to see S.H.I.T.L.O.A.D.S. of new streetwork when you get back.

I won't be holding my breath tho.

[Daniel Silk]

Very True gm

I think Banksy is standing at a crossroads I'm not sure whats the best route he can now take but he could easily just turn out canvases for £50,000 each and sell them to Hollywood stars with more money than sense
Does he want to sell to people that really understand his work?
How far away is he from gettin people like Paris Hilton asking him to do a portrait of her little dog Ya know what I mean? he really needs to try and keep his edge, coz the media can get out of control and it could end up that some other graffiti artist could pull a stunt on Banksy like he did on Paris

[abeautifulnight]

But beyond all this, is it just not a case of making every penny while you can.

If you take other artist such as Warhol who is a huge influence on Banksy. The Warhol unsigned works are not recieving the same inflated prices as Banksy. In a couple of years or even months the unsigned works will nose dive as the quality of reproduction rises.

An unsigned Warhol soup can - from the B-sunday morning series (an edition created by Warhols team using the same screens as the original) is about 400dollar - If you bought a signed orginal at the first show in La - it was 50dollar and now you'd be into the 100'000.

Its great that people can buy the unsigned work but it won't hold its current pricing. Anyone thinking the unsigned will keep rising is a fool. Banksy will be a victim of fashion like anyone else. The reason Hirst kept his prices so high was the lack and quality of editions - all signed.

Bet we'll see more official posters, etc. So that quality can be controled.

Banksy is a great painter. But anyone just arriving to the party thinking they can buy in now - buying unsigned works 0 has missed the boat.

Buy what you like, not what a good investment

[monochrome]

but the B- Sunday prints are effectively nothing more than unauthorised posters of the same thing. very much the same as the backdoor prints you can get of banksy.

the unsigned banksys, despite being unsigned remain limited and numbered. that counts for a lot. otherwise you are merely paying for an autograph.... if picasso paints a picture and doesn't sign it, it's still a picasso. unsigned are still official limited edition banksys.

on saying that - unsigned works by Banksy are not that high if they are priced around £400-500. although the older prints where few a signed should be worth a little more with COA i feel.

[monochrome]

also - i think the Sunday B Morning prints are unlimited and there are 1000s of them hence why they are only £150/£300 each.

[abeautifulnight]

However as of today

Unsigned Banksys Ebay

Laugh Now - 980
Jack & Jill - 650
Soup Can - 477
Toxic Mary - 250 - 425
HMV -335
Napalm - 320
Rats- 245

Laz have queen vic for 950 plus VAT

And we all know that Bomb Hugger, Love is in the Air etc would hit crazy money

[monochrome]

but i don't get your point? what are you comparing them too? unlimited Warhols where there are literally 1000s of copies (ie. posters) or limited edition, conrtolled prints issued by the artist's prefered printer? a like for like comparision would be worthwhile.

[LoveRat]

gm said:

As another *icon* once said, many years ago: "Ever get the feeling you've been cheated?



The same *icon* also said "The only notes that matter come in wads" Just a thought

[pica]

Also, people at Warhol's factory were notoriously under paid and to make up for this many would keep those silkscreens and presses running after the boss went home at night. That's part of the reason there has been so many that were unsigned, yet "Warhol". This is a different situation.

[LoveRat]

So that's why Steph works late

[pica]

I hope he pays his people well! It really never dawned on Warhol that his "assistants" were turning his factory into a "raise in pay" for themselves until thousands were done up and sold. My parents (poor artists) bought a M.Monroe from just such an "assistant" (boyfriend of Warhol).

[numusic]

pica said:

I hope he pays his people well! It really never dawned on Warhol that his "assistants" were turning his factory into a "raise in pay" for themselves until thousands were done up and sold. My parents (poor artists) bought a M.Monroe from just such an "assistant" (boyfriend of Warhol).

He also had a row with his printers about costs, so they kept the screens and churned out loads of copies to sell to pay the supposed bill. Wonder if he got em done in Birmingham

[abeautifulnight]

Lets start again

I think its clear that there is no longer an outsider, a mere graf artist but in fact has become part of the very thing he has rallied against. The exhibition may not have been in a gallery but the prices very much were.

The recent sets of screen prints such as soup cans (4 sets) were cash ins. There was no other reason other then cash and to pay for this exhibition that they were produced

The Paris Hilton cd and Disneyland was a publicity stunt. In particular Paris Hilton as it to easy a target while other celebrity friends are left alone to pay up for his work.

I feel his unsigned works are over priced and it is doubtful they will hold value. The signed stuff is what its about.

The L.A. show from what I've seen was a greatest hits show with some new songs. Crude Oils last year was all new. In LA 90% of the works we'd all seen before.

Is banksy not now just another designer name - we all seem to know Robbbie Williams, Christiana, Brad Pitt, Hirst all own his work. Who told us this ?

He did through his people. Who we all know watch this website.

[monochrome]

i'm confused.
what are you saying here?
there is no future in banksy? or just signed prints as the canvases are over priced? and no one would invest in unsigned prints? even though they clearly have a value?
what do you want from banksy? affordable screenprints, hand pulled with numbers from his official printers or mass produced rubbish?

[HowAboutNo]

monochrome said:

what do you want from banksy? affordable screenprints, hand pulled with numbers from his official printers or mass produced rubbish?

I personally want MORE STREET PIECES and nowt else..couldn't really give a flying fortress for the prints. If he stopped doing them tomorrow I wouldnt be upset. Cant afford any of the older ones I want, not sure if I really like any of the newer ones.

When I look back at the older street stuff (when he first moved to purely stencils rather than the stuff Kal has been posting) I cant help but think how much more edgy, witty and the quality of the image were all so much more crisp and fresh. Compared to anything he has done recently.

I certainly don't think he has sold out - just a product of his agents greed - but am sure he aint complaining, at the same time - It's don't believe it is what he set out to do back in the day.

[numusic]

howaboutno said:

monochrome said:

what do you want from banksy? affordable screenprints, hand pulled with numbers from his official printers or mass produced rubbish?

I personally want MORE STREET PIECES and nowt else..couldn't really give a flying fortress for the prints. If he stopped doing them tomorrow I wouldnt be upset. Cant afford any of the older ones I want, not sure if I really like any of the newer ones.

When I look back at the older street stuff (when he first moved to purely stencils rather than the stuff Kal has been posting) I cant help but think how much more edgy, witty and the quality of the image were all so much more crisp and fresh. Compared to anything he has done recently.

I certainly don't think he has sold out - just a product of his agents greed - but am sure he aint complaining, at the same time - It's don't believe it is what he set out to do back in the day.

feel the same mate, clciked Buy it now when the 'festival' print came up.. 750 quid, regretting it ever since.. at least I do run a festival.. but think that's it, well, unless Laugh Now pops up for 50 quid.

[Daniel Silk]

abeautifulnight said:

Lets start again

I think its clear that there is no longer an outsider, a mere graf artist but in fact has become part of the very thing he has rallied against. The exhibition may not have been in a gallery but the prices very much were.

The recent sets of screen prints such as soup cans (4 sets) were cash ins. There was no other reason other then cash and to pay for this exhibition that they were produced

The Paris Hilton cd and Disneyland was a publicity stunt. In particular Paris Hilton as it to easy a target while other celebrity friends are left alone to pay up for his work.

I feel his unsigned works are over priced and it is doubtful they will hold value. The signed stuff is what its about.

The L.A. show from what I've seen was a greatest hits show with some new songs. Crude Oils last year was all new. In LA 90% of the works we'd all seen before.

Is banksy not now just another designer name - we all seem to know Robbbie Williams, Christiana, Brad Pitt, Hirst all own his work. Who told us this ?

He did through his people. Who we all know watch this website.

Hi ABeautifulNight

Yeah, I hope Banksy, Laz & POW do read what people are talking about on this forum, coz sometimes I get the impression that they don't oh, I would Just like to say that this forum is totally independent from Laz & POW, and I think I have only had about two emails from them in the last year

[RBK]

I have a lot of thoughts... so I apologize ahead of time for my different musings:

- I think first and foremost, the most important thing is that Banksy continues to produce street art. This is how he made his name and it is free for everyone to enjoy.

- I'm sure Banksy is conflicted but who knows if he is donating the money made on his canvases or buying a Bentley GT? He even shows that he is conflicted in his 2 new prints: Morons & Festival. To quote: " I can't believe you morons actually buy this s**t!" Angelina & Bono have used their fame to progress good causes and Banksy can definitely do the same. His 'message' doesn't change with the cost of the canvases.

- We also have to remember that Art is a business. There are big distinction to be made between issuing prints vs. originals, POW vs. a Gallery-sponsored Exhibition. Furthermore, the money made from the show and selling $150K+ canvases will allow Banksy to explore different mediums, larger pieces, etc.

[lesroy]

I don't think Banksy is changing much... I just think his work and profile is being blown up by the circus that follows him!

I'm sure he is the same old Banksy but with a little more wonga in his pocket to blow on charlie & spray paint. His art work still holds the strong and powerful meanings for me.

And as for the price of his work, Im afraid it's people like us that have forced the prices up. With regards to the unsigned pieces... I get the impression they will always be worth alot and will continue to soar in price as they are limited editions that are properly stamped. There will never be any more of these prints so as the odd ones go astray on eBay or more kids "blu-tac" them to their walls, the numbers will dwindle and the pieces will rise in price further.

It sounds as though there are a few people that are annoyed that Banksy, someone relatively unknown has become very popular to the world, making his art too expensive... unfortunately I cannot afford any more of his work and I too get annoyed that I cannot afford a Barcode, GWB, Laugh Now, HAND etc... but heyhoe.... that is art!

Atleast we all own a print that we love... I just echo the rest of you in saying that I do hope we continue to see his stuff on walls throughout the country.

Banksy... you're a legend to us first and to Brad Pitt etc second!

[numusic]

rklimek said:

I have a lot of thoughts... so I apologize ahead of time for my different musings:

- I think first and foremost, the most important thing is that Banksy continues to produce street art. This is how he made his name and it is free for everyone to enjoy.

- I'm sure Banksy is conflicted but who knows if he is donating the money made on his canvases or buying a Bentley GT? He even shows that he is conflicted in his 2 new prints: Morons & Festival. To quote: " I can't believe you morons actually buy this s**t!" Angelina & Bono have used their fame to progress good causes and Banksy can definitely do the same. His 'message' doesn't change with the cost of the canvases.

- We also have to remember that Art is a business. There are big distinction to be made between issuing prints vs. originals, POW vs. a Gallery-sponsored Exhibition. Furthermore, the money made from the show and selling $150K+ canvases will allow Banksy to explore different mediums, larger pieces, etc.

Wholeheartedly agree, If I inherit a bag of cash I'll do the same as I do now only bigger and better !

[Daniel Silk]

lesroy said:

I don't think Banksy is changing much... I just think his work and profile is being blown up by the circus that follows him!

I'm sure he is the same old Banksy but with a little more wonga in his pocket to blow on charlie & spray paint. His art work still holds the strong and powerful meanings for me.

And as for the price of his work, Im afraid it's people like us that have forced the prices up. With regards to the unsigned pieces... I get the impression they will always be worth alot and will continue to soar in price as they are limited editions that are properly stamped. There will never be any more of these prints so as the odd ones go astray on eBay or more kids "blu-tac" them to their walls, the numbers will dwindle and the pieces will rise in price further.

It sounds as though there are a few people that are annoyed that Banksy, someone relatively unknown has become very popular to the world, making his art too expensive... unfortunately I cannot afford any more of his work and I too get annoyed that I cannot afford a Barcode, GWB, Laugh Now, HAND etc... but heyhoe.... that is art!

Atleast we all own a print that we love... I just echo the rest of you in saying that I do hope we continue to see his stuff on walls throughout the country.

Banksy... you're a legend to us first and to Brad Pitt etc second!

Spot on Lesroy

I think Banksy is starting to realize that some of the people that are getting his Prints & Canvases now are only buying them to try to look like they are in with Street Art fashion I think we can count in most of those Hollywood stars that we have all heard about splashing the cash in the last few days Lets hope he remembers all of those people that really like his work for what it is, and not just coz it has a Banksy signature in the corner or coz it was once displayed in a warehouse with a painted elephant ;D

[joelp]

It is a market controlled and built by the very rich. Banksy has little control over his popularity and any rational person would sell their work for $200,000 if people were offering it.

It’s a natural reaction to get a little upset when you find some source of entertainment (be it an artist or musician) before everyone else and then everyone else slowly catches on. He was our favorite artist before Brad Pitt even heard his name yet deep down we envy him being able to shell out tons of money to own something we’d kill for.

[gm]

He was our favorite artist before Brad Pitt even heard his name yet deep down we envy him being able to shell out tons of money to own something we’d kill for.

I wouldn't go so far as to kill for one.

[lesroy]

Maybe just harm or maim tho yeah?

[saffa]

I agree with joelp.

it has happened in all industries. take the surf/skate industry. before it was looked at as a bunch of pot heads with no ambition, but now the surf/skate culture/industy is very 'IN' and worth millions. I think the same has happened to the whole graffiti and alternative art scene, it's now a trendy thing to do or be seen doing/being interested in. as soon as industries jump onto the bandwagon, everyone wants to be apart of it and the original 'followers/supporters' get offended. it's very hard to draw the line. hopefully it is all just a trend and big companies/media will find a new sport/culture/industry to make the new 'IN' thing.

the same happens when bands and musicians make it big and become popular. everyone shouts 'mainstream'!

with street art becoming popular and trendy it's only going to get worse. it won't be long until you see ronald mcdonald tagging the golden arches onto a wall in an ad on TV!

sorry for all the //'s and '''s.

[tn]

what the fuck is going on???

i didn't read everything, but it seems that everyone is bitching about paintings and money.
it might be just my personal definition of art, but it's about reaching people and not about selling or owning. this last part is about people who don't want to support an great artist without receiving something for it.
banksy is an streetartist. there have been hundrets and thousands of interviews where he says that he likes painting on walls much better than making his prints and that the people who buy his pictures are mostly morons, but he doesn't care, cause they are paying him to destroy their world, to make it a better one.
so fuck it! i like a rat in the street better than a rat in someones livingroom.
oh, and i'm pretty sure he will surprise us with a new unique stunt in no time... and if not? then there will be some people with a piece of paper they fell in love with because it was worth something to someone else and now can't even wipe their asses with it...

what counts is what a painting in the streets does with the people who walk along it and not what's the worth of someones livingroomdecoration!

[gm]

i didn't read everything,

Perhaps you should.