[jonm101313]

Jun 23, 2013 0:55:24 GMT 1 kelly said:

I'm new so please forgive my ignorance but what's the hammer price?

I thought the final price at auction

[Pattycakes]

The hammer price is exactly that, the figure the auctioneer calls out when he puts the hammer (actually called a gavel) down. This is the price before the auction fees are added on top (usually 25-30% less than the buyer ends up paying)

[jettad]

I'm considering selling a couple of prints with the upcoming Phillips - October Editions and Works on Paper auction. Does anyone have any thoughts (good or bad) about dealing with Phillips? I'd be trying to sell a Banksy and Peter Blake print.

I have zero experience of auctions and wonder if i'm over my head. Any help would be great.

One other thing, I get confused with all the figures/percentages going around. Hypothetically, if something sells for £1000, hammer price, the auction fees would make it £1250 (25%), paid by the buyer? And of that £1000 hammer price, what would I then get from them? Again, sorry for the questions, I am new to this!

Cheers

[Deleted]

Aug 18, 2018 18:25:54 GMT 1 jettad said:

I'm considering selling a couple of prints with the upcoming Phillips - October Editions and Works on Paper auction. Does anyone have any thoughts (good or bad) about dealing with Phillips? I'd be trying to sell a Banksy and Peter Blake print.

I have zero experience of auctions and wonder if i'm over my head. Any help would be great.

One other thing, I get confused with all the figures/percentages going around. Hypothetically, if something sells for £1000, hammer price, the auction fees would make it £1250 (25%), paid by the buyer? And of that £1000 hammer price, what would I then get from them? Again, sorry for the questions, I am new to this!

Cheers

Sometimes it can be as much as 30%, mibbe even higher above hammer. You will be lucky to get 90% of hammer price, depends on what you negotiate and their standard fees. Plenty folks with good experience of auctions on here will be along to advise better than I can.

[moron]

Aug 18, 2018 18:25:54 GMT 1 jettad said:

I'm considering selling a couple of prints with the upcoming Phillips - October Editions and Works on Paper auction. Does anyone have any thoughts (good or bad) about dealing with Phillips? I'd be trying to sell a Banksy and Peter Blake print.

I have zero experience of auctions and wonder if i'm over my head. Any help would be great.

One other thing, I get confused with all the figures/percentages going around. Hypothetically, if something sells for £1000, hammer price, the auction fees would make it £1250 (25%), paid by the buyer? And of that £1000 hammer price, what would I then get from them? Again, sorry for the questions, I am new to this!

Cheers

 One way is to phone Phillips and ask them about fees plus if there are any catalogue and storage fees if the item does not sell.

[irl1]

Aug 18, 2018 18:25:54 GMT 1 jettad said:

I'm considering selling a couple of prints with the upcoming Phillips - October Editions and Works on Paper auction. Does anyone have any thoughts (good or bad) about dealing with Phillips? I'd be trying to sell a Banksy and Peter Blake print.

I have zero experience of auctions and wonder if i'm over my head. Any help would be great.

One other thing, I get confused with all the figures/percentages going around. Hypothetically, if something sells for £1000, hammer price, the auction fees would make it £1250 (25%), paid by the buyer? And of that £1000 hammer price, what would I then get from them? Again, sorry for the questions, I am new to this!

Cheers

The key is to haggle with the auction house for your terms. Phillips would be one of the best. They will get the buyers premium (BP) which should be about 25%, so for every 1,000 they sell your item for the buyer pays them 250. 

Your side is the sellers commission. For lower items expect to pay the about 18% to 20%. For higher priced items try not to pay more than 10% and stay firm on the 10%. Make sure you ask is the 10% all in, as you don't want to pay extra for photographs, catalogue or any hidden extras. 

Do read the contract before signing as some houses charge you if you stick with a certain reserve and your item goes unsold. 

To be honest try more than one house for fees, but if you have good items don't just throw them in anywhere

[galaxy01]

Has anyone ever used Artsy to consign work - any good? Considering a few originals to submit.

[irl1]

Sept 2, 2018 17:31:33 GMT 1 galaxy01 said:

Has anyone ever used Artsy to consign work - any good? Considering a few originals to submit.

I used them before. You can stick them up and wait to see what offers you get from auction houses, then take your pick from the best one. You should get a few offers if the work is right, but no matter who replies to you haggle like mad for the best terms. 

[galaxy01]

Sept 2, 2018 19:11:55 GMT 1 irl1 said:

Sept 2, 2018 17:31:33 GMT 1 galaxy01 said:

Has anyone ever used Artsy to consign work - any good? Considering a few originals to submit.

I used them before. You can stick them up and wait to see what offers you get from auction houses, then take your pick from the best one. You should get a few offers if the work is right, but no matter who replies to you haggle like mad for the best terms. 

Cant see anywhere about replies to it. Will it just email me when someone does?

[irl1]

Sept 2, 2018 19:43:32 GMT 1 galaxy01 said:

Sept 2, 2018 19:11:55 GMT 1 irl1 said:

I used them before. You can stick them up and wait to see what offers you get from auction houses, then take your pick from the best one. You should get a few offers if the work is right, but no matter who replies to you haggle like mad for the best terms. 

Cant see anywhere about replies to it. Will it just email me when someone does?

When you send in a lot you will get an email with a consignment number. Then when an auction house wants to take your lot artsy send you an email with an offer. You can take it (make sure you read their terms) reject it or ask for better terms. It goes through artsy but you don't pay them anything. They contact the house for you if you take the offer, and then the house contacts you. Its very simple and i found them good. When you send it in your work goes up where only the auction houses can see it. Did you get an email back with a number?

[galaxy01]

Sept 2, 2018 20:11:07 GMT 1 irl1 said:

Sept 2, 2018 19:43:32 GMT 1 galaxy01 said:

Cant see anywhere about replies to it. Will it just email me when someone does?

When you send in a lot you will get an email with a consignment number. Then when an auction house wants to take your lot artsy send you an email with an offer. You can take it (make sure you read their terms) reject it or ask for better terms. It goes through artsy but you don't pay them anything. They contact the house for you if you take the offer, and then the house contacts you. Its very simple and i found them good. When you send it in your work goes up where only the auction houses can see it. Did you get an email back with a number?

Yeh I got those. Will just wait now then

[irl1]

Sept 2, 2018 20:16:58 GMT 1 galaxy01 said:

Sept 2, 2018 20:11:07 GMT 1 irl1 said:

When you send in a lot you will get an email with a consignment number. Then when an auction house wants to take your lot artsy send you an email with an offer. You can take it (make sure you read their terms) reject it or ask for better terms. It goes through artsy but you don't pay them anything. They contact the house for you if you take the offer, and then the house contacts you. Its very simple and i found them good. When you send it in your work goes up where only the auction houses can see it. Did you get an email back with a number?

Yeh I got those. Will just wait now then

Yeh just give it a week or so and then check in with them. The last time i used them i had a reply in less than two weeks and had it consigned a week later, hope it works for you. You can always try other places while your waiting if your in a hurry

[heller]

Take a work to auction if you have a bunch of rich friends you can contact prior to inform them that your rare hard to find item is coming up for sale, so please go and bid against each other.

If your item that your selling is in fact rare, hasn't come up to the show very often or you think now is the time that the market will set a new sales record on a particular work, then yes, send it to the show.

Galleries use auction selling prices to determine the secondary market value of all works. If your work has sold recently, just contact a gallery as most will offer 10% - 15% under the last auction hammer (Which is about the same fee you get hit by with an auction house) This way you will get your funds more quickly and should be an easy transaction if your dealing with a legitimate dealer.

If your a gambler, send it to the show, you may come ahead a few bucks, but, it is a risk as you may come up short.

Most galleries will takes works on consignment at a price set by the seller, so if you are looking to get top dollar for any work, consignment or private sales is the only way to go. This route may take slightly longer, depending on the work, but when working with the right gallery, it can be extremely fruitful for all parties involved.

[sleepyl]

Heya,

Keen to understand how buying art at auctions works.
Can anyone tell me if the below is correct?

Buy:
Hammer Price: winning bid at auction, includes 20% VAT (unless liable to a reduced rate of VAT) - correct?
Buyer's Premium: is a percentage additional charge on the hammer price (wikipedia), also includes 20% VAT on top (e.g. 25% fees or (25%*(1+20%VAT) = 30% Buyer's Premium including VAT) - correct?
Royalty/Artist's Resale Right (below): - is this mandatory in the UK? Does it have to be paid by the seller?
4% Up to €50,000
3% €50,000.01 - 200,000
1% €200,000.01 - 350,000
0.5% €350,000.01 - 500,000
0.25% In excess of €500,000
Up to a maximum levy of €10,000

Also is there a list of Buyer's Premium fees per Auction House somewhere?

[sfnyc]

I have someone than can get works with almost any houses including Christies / Sothebys at no fee no matter the value if the works gets accepted, but I have to like you first before giving out this contact

[sfnyc]

Sept 18, 2018 22:22:14 GMT 1 sleepyl said:

Heya,

Keen to understand how buying art at auctions works.
Can anyone tell me if the below is correct?

Buy:
Hammer Price: winning bid at auction, includes 20% VAT (unless liable to a reduced rate of VAT) - correct?
Buyer's Premium: is a percentage additional charge on the hammer price (wikipedia), also includes 20% VAT on top (e.g. 25% fees or (25%*(1+20%VAT) = 30% Buyer's Premium including VAT) - correct?
Royalty/Artist's Resale Right (below): - is this mandatory in the UK? Does it have to be paid by the seller?
4% Up to €50,000
3% €50,000.01 - 200,000
1% €200,000.01 - 350,000
0.5% €350,000.01 - 500,000
0.25% In excess of €500,000
Up to a maximum levy of €10,000

Also is there a list of Buyer's Premium fees per Auction House somewhere?

Hammer price is the price that is shown during the auction (vat depends on countries if included or not)

[mrred11]

How do Auction houses calculate estimated values on works?
Any details? 

Is there a industry standard or is each house different? 

Thanks 

[Pattycakes]

It's based on previous auction results for a given work if a print, or results of comparables if original. It also has a lot to do with the specialist (s) giving the estimate some understand the wider market beyond auctions and estimate accordingly, others do not.

[Poster Bob]

Stick your finger in the air and take a guess. Normally within 25-50% of what it actually sells for.

[mrred11]

Oct 20, 2018 9:16:37 GMT 1 Pattycakes said:

It's based on previous auction results for a given work if a print, or results of comparables if original. It also has a lot to do with the specialist (s) giving the estimate some understand the wider market beyond auctions and estimate accordingly, others do not.

Thanks. That was very helpful!

[moron]

Often there are no set rules. Also people do not have to accept the auction house valuation and can set their own reserve but that also means paying the fees if the item does not reach the reserve.

If it is for modern art by today's living artists the estimate can be worked out by the auction house based on market value and desirability plus the provenance of the item for example a Warhol print once owned or part of the collection or a prominent person or collector can be more desirable than the same Warhol print owned by Joe Nobody.

For antique paintings and art a lot if to do with provenance, specially African statues etc. For paintings, the auction house experts can easily undervalue a painting by thousands if not more and attribute it to a lesser artist. Some say these type of mistakes have been deliberate at times.

Basically you have to do your own research and get independant values from credible people who deal in that particular art and make sure you are happy with the reserve.

[sfnyc]

The most commonly used practice is to lower estimates significantly from actual market value / records to attract as many bidders as possible to the auction. So the only estimate calculation they really do is finding the number that will attract the most bidders

[mrred11]

Oct 20, 2018 22:00:51 GMT 1 sfnyc said:

The most commonly used practice is to lower estimates significantly from actual market value / records to attract as many bidders as possible to the auction. So the only estimate calculation they really do is finding the number that will attract the most bidders

This is interesting. I am curious to what you think of my previous reply to another poster. Frame it in "how to determine actual value" instead of the auction house trying to get more bidders. Thanks. I look forward to your reply
 

[mrred11]

Oct 20, 2018 21:01:45 GMT 1 t-dot said:

Market comparables is the short answer

Most prints have standard estimates these days. Banksy, Warhol, KAWS prints are always estimate at the same range even if sometimes the hit above or below

Let's say i have a kaws art toy in my collection.

Essentially i can comb auction results of my work on a website like artprices.com and place the figures in a spreadsheet and generate my own estimates of the value. If so, how far would one go back? The last 6 month of sales results of 6 weeks? Has anyone done this for there own collection yet?

Read more: urbanartassociation.com/thread/154357/auction-houses-calculate-estimated-values?page=1#ixzz5Uj4B4xG9

[mrred11]

Oct 20, 2018 21:00:20 GMT 1 moron said:

Often there are no set rules. Also people do not have to accept the auction house valuation and can set their own reserve but that also means paying the fees if the item does not reach the reserve.

If it is for modern art by today's living artists the estimate can be worked out by the auction house based on market value and desirability plus the provenance of the item for example a Warhol print once owned or part of the collection or a prominent person or collector can be more desirable than the same Warhol print owned by Joe Nobody.

For antique paintings and art a lot if to do with provenance, specially African statues etc. For paintings, the auction house experts can easily undervalue a painting by thousands if not more and attribute it to a lesser artist. Some say these type of mistakes have been deliberate at times.

Basically you have to do your own research and get independant values from credible people who deal in that particular art and make sure you are happy with the reserve.

Very helpful as well.

It seems hard to trust the professional opinion of gallery people and auction house reps. How can you find credible people in this space? (for advice) How do you do your own research personally if you don't mind sharing. Do you use services like artprice.com or artnet, artsy? Im curious to how to get the most value from these services. 
 

[Chris JL]

From a source that does work for one of the big auction houses (that shall not be named), I know that they do bias down some estimates intentionally to generate excitement and attention.
Baseline: it’s both a valuation and a marketing exercise.

[rockbeer]

Oct 23, 2018 5:41:59 GMT 1 mrred11 said:

It seems hard to trust the professional opinion of gallery people and auction house reps. How can you find credible people in this space?

You shouldn’t trust them, and you can’t expect to find credible people in the auction-house world. They are involved in a scam of the highest order where opacity and malfeasance are simply normal. If just about any other business were run this way, it would be regulated. The only reason the art market isn’t is because the people it routinely rips off can, for the most part at least, afford their losses.

Tread carefully.

I would strongly recommend Don Thompson’s book The $12 Million Stuffed Shark for an insight into the dysfunction at the heart of the art auction world. Essential reading for anyone thinking of playing that game. You wouldn’t want to discover afterwards that you were the stooge.

[mrred11]

Oct 23, 2018 8:28:19 GMT 1 rockbeer said:

Oct 23, 2018 5:41:59 GMT 1 mrred11 said:

It seems hard to trust the professional opinion of gallery people and auction house reps. How can you find credible people in this space?

You shouldn’t trust them, and you can’t expect to find credible people in the auction-house world. They are involved in a scam of the highest order where opacity and malfeasance are simply normal. If just about any other business were run this way, it would be regulated. The only reason the art market isn’t is because the people it routinely rips off can, for the most part at least, afford their losses.

Tread carefully.

I would strongly recommend Don Thompson’s book The $12 Million Stuffed Shark for an insight into the dysfunction at the heart of the art auction world. Essential reading for anyone thinking of playing that game. You wouldn’t want to discover afterwards that you were the stooge.

wow. Thank you so much. I just ordered a copy of that book! Excited to read. 

[rockbeer]

Oct 24, 2018 5:16:29 GMT 1 mrred11 said:

wow. Thank you so much. I just ordered a copy of that book! Excited to read. 

Yes, it's quite an eye-opener. A few years old now, but still highly relevant, especially as his predictions about the decline of the dealer/gallery are starting to play out.

Essentially, because art has no real or intrinsic value, pricing is always based on other often intangible factors, like perceived scarcity (often deliberately manufactured), what people think they can get away with, and what someone else is rumoured to have paid for something similar last week. As sfnyc said above, auction estimates are usually designed to draw a crowd rather than to reflect the actual expected selling price, because nothing is better for artificially boosting auction prices than having a lot of people bidding. And once a couple of unremarkable mid-range lots go for two or three times their estimates, the major lots that follow inevitably will too.

It only takes two people (or even one and a willing chandelier) with too much money or massively over-inflated egos bidding against each other in a hyped up auction environment to set absurd new benchmarks for individual artists or entire genres that the rest of the market is then essentially obliged to follow.

[cest]

I have a chagall i want to auction (under 3k) heritage wants 20% sellers commission all in. Kind of high if you ask me. This is for heritage. What are yall seeing for them recently?
I pushed back for 15% , i dont really need to sell and i have a standing gallery offer close to thier estimated values. I just want an auction house as an outlet if/when i need it