[loucastel]

Nov 6, 2008 15:42:46 GMT 1 stjohn said:

Nov 6, 2008 14:07:15 GMT 1 pfffffffffft said:

So long as you dont bid at the auction you are exempt from NY tax. Considered an export.

Not being funny, but how do I get a piece from the auction without bidding!

If you get in touch with mr Morgan Osthimer of Bonhams New York, I'm sure he will let you have any relevant information, he is a very very helpful guy.

[stjohn]

Nov 6, 2008 16:01:43 GMT 1 @ejvaze said:

Nov 6, 2008 15:42:46 GMT 1 stjohn said:

Not being funny, but how do I get a piece from the auction without bidding!

Maybe what pfffffffffft mean was

as long as you are not sitting in the auction room and bid on line or via phone or leave a bid and are outside the US you are exempt from NY tax

Is that what you meant pfffffffffft?

BTW I LOVE this Barcode Shark

Ahhh. Got you - I am sure that's what he meant "bid AT the auction". So an absentee bid from outside the US would mean was being exported from there. Sorry - all makes sense now!

[stjohn]

Nov 6, 2008 16:14:25 GMT 1 loucastel said:

Nov 6, 2008 15:42:46 GMT 1 stjohn said:

Not being funny, but how do I get a piece from the auction without bidding!

If you get in touch with mr Morgan Osthimer of Bonhams New York, I'm sure he will let you have any relevant information, he is a very very helpful guy.

Thanks loucastel - will do.

[stjohn]

Bonhams have confirmed that for absentee bids, buyer pays just buyer's premium and no more so long as is exported.

[lee3]

>>>If we in the UK bid and win, what is the NY tax, or are we exempt if it is for export to the UK, in which case we pay out own duties/tax on import? <<<<

>>>Bonhams have confirmed that for absentee bids, buyer pays just buyer's premium and no more so long as is exported. <<<

You will be subject to shipping fees (figure around $700 for the Barcode canvas to the UK), VAT import fees, and you may be liable for artist resale rights (roughly 3%) if this is sold to a UK buyer. I'm not certain regarding artist resale rights but I would certainly look into it because those charges add up. It's quite possible that Bonham's wouldn't charge you for the latter pair of fees but it doen't change the fact that you would be responsible for them if that is the law.

I recently got hit with an 8% use tax on a Villegle that I imported form Cologne 4 years ago and just learned that CA has retroactively applied this law so they waived the penalty but i was still responsible for the payment and interest and with the global economy the way it is, one can be certain that governments will be very sophisticated making sure they collect what they believe is due. It was a bummer to find out as I learned after the fact that I purcahsed what for me is a significant amount of work from London and Paris and now know that I will owe an additional 8% on all of that work at the end of this year. To add insult to injury that work was puchased at the dollar nadir relative to the pound and euro.

Someone else implied that you may be liable for NY tax if you bid in person at the auction as opposed to an absentee bid and I would look into that as well as my understanding of NY law is that you would not be subject to any NY tax if you bid in person at the auction and have it shipped to you in the UK. Regardless, it's much better to talk with Bonham's or preferably your acccountant regarding your own personal situation as there is a healthy amount of speculation here and I woudn't want someone upset or surprised.

>>> If buying something that originally came from the UK, from a seller in the USA, I believe we have to pay about 5% import duty, as opposed to full blown 17.5% VAT. <<<<

Again, talk with your expert. My understanding of the law is that you pay BOTH VAT and the 5% import duty if the sale takes place in the UK or the EU. I'm not certain how that law is applied if the sale takes place in the US.

Good luck to those of you bidding on anything the next week or so. I'm most likely on the sidelines though there is one lot that is tempting me.

[stjohn]

Good advice there lee3. My understanding is that for import to the UK from outside the EU the 5% IS actually VAT that has been reduced from 17.5% down to 5%. I do not know what happens when for eg. you buy within the EU (say in Germany) and get charged VAT there (at whatever rate) and then import it to the UK. Can't believe you pay twice!?

C'mon lee3 - I am sure you've got the odd low absentee bid!!

[loucastel]

Very informative posts Lee, thanks. if you live outside the USA at present the exchange rates make a big difference to any purchases, but I suppose we had it pretty good for a few months, just paying the price now, I have just purchased a canvas from the USA and just wish it could have come up a couple of months ago, still thats life, I also have to think about the Euro rate rate as well, so what with sterling so low against that as well, whenever I tranfer sterling to over here I seem to get less every time. Will have to stop buying art abroad for a while I think!!

[lee3]

>>> My understanding is that for import to the UK from outside the EU the 5% IS actually VAT that has been reduced from 17.5% down to 5%. <<<<

I think you are correct and I was probably mistaken above. Your post made me do a little research and this is what I found:

The notes at the bottom of the lot appear to be consigned outside of the UK and is in line with what you stated John (5% on hammer suggesting it is an international consignment and 17.5% on premium)

www.christies.com/LotFinder/lot_details.aspx?from=salesummary&intObjectID=5146198&sid=1ce75f8c-cce1-4b0c-9d97-2fdbe6dc9b6f

Whereas this lot does not have the 5% surcharge on hammer and only the surcharge on premium suggesting it is a UK or EU consigned lot

www.christies.com/LotFinder/lot_details.aspx?from=salesummary&intObjectID=5146120&sid=1ce75f8c-cce1-4b0c-9d97-2fdbe6dc9b6f

My bad and thanks for the correction. Proof positive as to why we should all make absolutely certain we know our own personal facts before bidding and in the US, your situation will differ by state so it's tough to give even general guidelines.

>>>I am sure you've got the odd low absentee bid!! <<<

i honestly don't as there are a couple of nice works i'm working on through dealers at the moment. I do have one painting for sale in NY however which will be the 3rd offering of my life. It is the only painting of the 3 I put to auction (one sold so far, and one did not) that I just don't really want back as we've outgrown it and therefore it was the only lot that I agreed to lower my reserve below the low estimate on. I will be glad to have the auctions over and behind me as I do not get any pleasure whatsoever on the sales side of the art habit. Conversely, the thrill of the hunt and the enjoyment of it on our walls is so much fun.

[stjohn]

>>> Conversely, the thrill of the hunt and the enjoyment of it on our walls is so much fun. <<<

That hits the nail on the head! The chase is great, the kill better and the after bit reminds you how good it all was!

[theor1]

Love it.