[curiousgeorge]

Dec 3, 2014 17:39:43 GMT 1 Harveyn said:

The prices paid by the buyers with 28.8% fees seem very high on certain works, if not all.

Golf Sale £4,121

Barcode £7,728

I Fought The Law £2,833
Laugh Now £6,182
CND (signed) £7,084
Jack and Jill (Signed) £7,728 
Pulp Fiction AP (Signed) £18,032
Love is in the Air £7,728
Soup x 4 (Signed) £14,168
Toxic Mary £5,152
CND £4,121
Love Rat £5,796
Grannies £3,348
Applause £4,894
CYW Purple (Signed) £16,744 

Can you do the same for what the seller/s would walk away with please?

[trapnel1]

What the sellers walked away with (assuming 16.5% seller fee, and not taking account of the catalogue illustration fee).......

Golf Sale £2672
Barcode £5010
I Fought The Law £1837
Laugh Now £4008
CND (signed) £4593
Jack and Jill (Signed) £5010
Pulp Fiction AP (Signed) £11690
Love is in the Air £5010
Soup x 4 (Signed) £9185
Toxic Mary £3340
CND £2672
Love Rat £3758
Grannies £2171
Applause £3173
CYW Purple (Signed) £10855

[Hubble Bubble]

Have you added VAT at 20% to the seller's fee?

[Pattycakes]

hmmm not quite.

[lucky7]

www.bloomsburyauctions.com/cms/pages/lots/36137?auction-id=3024&lots.~rsp.p=17&lots.~rsp.gp=15&currency=&lots.~rsp.l=20&lots.~rsp.cl=20&lots.~rsp.ss=date%2Ca&lots.~rsp.css=number%2Ca

(Scroll down for the meat and ptatoes)

Even with premiums,  these look cheap.  CHEAPER THAN THIS FORUM!
Are auction prices always cheaper? Has the Banksy market gone down?
?

[FЯ]

Apr 23, 2015 6:25:19 GMT 1 lucky7 said:

www.bloomsburyauctions.com/cms/pages/lots/36137?auction-id=3024&lots.~rsp.p=17&lots.~rsp.gp=15&currency=&lots.~rsp.l=20&lots.~rsp.cl=20&lots.~rsp.ss=date%2Ca&lots.~rsp.css=number%2Ca

(Scroll down for the meat and ptatoes)

Even with premiums,  these look cheap.  CHEAPER THAN THIS FORUM!
Are auction prices always cheaper? Has the Banksy market gone down?
?

Need to add on fees etc

[gironawatch]

Price are bit down in the last few month. More the signed than unsigned.

[Black Apple Art]

Apr 23, 2015 7:58:59 GMT 1 gironawatch said:

Price are bit down in the last few month. More the signed than unsigned.

I can honestly say, I haven't seen more prints available in a while as the high prices have obviously been bringing a new level of people willing to part with their pieces. But in contrast, without a doubt, I have never seen more damaged and less than investment quality prints in circulation ever. Between myself and several other buyers and collectors, I can honestly say more than half of all pieces I see for sale, and that's probably low, have undisclosed damage. I believe this is due to three main reasons:

1) We know many older pieces that were first purchased for a few hundred pounds or less were just not deemed worthy of spending more than a fraction of that framing. I think this is the smallest portion of the issue now as many have been flushed out, so no need to go further into that. 2) Most framers really do not possess the knowledge or skill to do true conservation framing. This combined with the most owners knowing even less, is a deadly combination resulting in a massive amount of prints out there with are severely damaged and getting worse with every passing day. The scary thing is many of these pieces look perfect framed and sadly enough, this is how most are sold with neither the buyer or seller even bothering to open and inspect it. 3) Many being aware of the factors in #2 go by this "no inspection, no issue" policy where they either know the piece is damaged and pass it along again or just don't want to look. I can't even count how many galleries, resellers and owners just in the past 6 months have sworn pieces to be "perfect" or "mint" and after the smoke clears I have found out they have never even looked at the piece beyond the framed glass, or that was their excuse, and then always blame the original owner, the framer or they old, I just never looked. Double sided tape, glue, non conservation grade materials.. the list goes on and on. There are some great framers out there but for every great one there are probably 10 that are not so good so know your framer, know your shit or even better, know both! 

All and all yes, there are some deals to be had but when you see a low price or a price that seems "above market" wether from a private party, dealer or auction house...you need to know what was actually sold. To think that all the pieces my mates and I have returned or refused are most likely hanging in someone's home having no clue of what they truly have is scary and sad. 

I probably have gotten off topic here but I think if more people knew the questions to ask and what to look for it would put a big dent in this massive issue that for the most part goes unnoticed until it's too late. With the little that is out there, these pieces are scarce enough as it is and to pay or charge a premium for a truly top quality and preserved print is worth every penny imo. 

As you were. 

[Harveyn]

Strong results on these. 

Unsigned

Golf Sale       £2480

Pulp Fiction   £7192

Napalm         £4960

LN                £5580

Love Rat       £7740

G. Rat          £7740

LIITA            £11160

Soup Can      £5208

Grannies       £4960

Signed

IFTL               £7440

Grin Reaper    £11780

[samfrost]

Not to mention a very scratch and dent sale. Always check the condition reports!!

[brookvale]

Are grim reapers really that much? There were a few on here for sale a while back.

[Winter]

Always felt the Grin Reaper deserved to be up there with some of his other prints. Love the thick ink.

[Catman 74]

The IFTl had a really bad tear although restored you could clearly see the damage..

[Unica]

£11k for an unsigned LIITA, they have gone to the next level. That and GWB are separating themselves, more expensive than most other signed prints now.

[Catman 74]

Napalm and grannies coming up in price too

[coller]

Those are pretty high results, and for damaged prints?

Guess the fellas who bought their signed GRs on here for ~8k over the last year are feeling good; there were a few about.

[Deleted]

Some prices insane.

I paid £5k for LIITA in July 2014 just after Laz exhibition at Sothebys when Banksy prints were at a premium or so I thought; if id bought it a month before id probably have paid about £4k !

[brookvale]

Did anyone buy those grim reapers that were for sale on here a few months ago anyway?

[coller]

Jul 4, 2015 18:14:54 GMT 1 @kintoreton said:

Some prices insane.

I paid £5k for LIITA in July 2014 just after Laz exhibition at Sothebys when Banksy prints were at a premium or so I thought; if id bought it a month before id probably have paid about £4k !

That honestly seems pretty cheap even for 2014; wouldn't sweat it too much

[Deleted]

No, im fine with what i paid for LIITA, i was just remarking on rate of climb on certain prints in the last year, LIITA being one of them. I bought from Lionel Gallery but Hangup and Newart both had one and all 3 sellers were all priced within few hundred pounds of each other, Hangup being the most expensive naturally.

[Phear Loathing]

What's an us gwb go for?

Crazy to think I bought one for 5000 USD in fall of 2013

[coller]

Jul 8, 2015 14:26:23 GMT 1 Phear Loathing said:

What's an us gwb go for?

Crazy to think I bought one for 5000 USD in fall of 2013

That's crazy in its own right. And over 10kGBP.

[met]

Apr 23, 2015 9:19:47 GMT 1 Black Apple Art said:

Apr 23, 2015 7:58:59 GMT 1 gironawatch said:

Price are bit down in the last few month. More the signed than unsigned.

I can honestly say, I haven't seen more prints available in a while as the high prices have obviously been bringing a new level of people willing to part with their pieces. But in contrast, without a doubt, I have never seen more damaged and less than investment quality prints in circulation ever. Between myself and several other buyers and collectors, I can honestly say more than half of all pieces I see for sale, and that's probably low, have undisclosed damage. I believe this is due to three main reasons:

1) We know many older pieces that were first purchased for a few hundred pounds or less were just not deemed worthy of spending more than a fraction of that framing. I think this is the smallest portion of the issue now as many have been flushed out, so no need to go further into that. 2) Most framers really do not possess the knowledge or skill to do true conservation framing. This combined with the most owners knowing even less, is a deadly combination resulting in a massive amount of prints out there with are severely damaged and getting worse with every passing day. The scary thing is many of these pieces look perfect framed and sadly enough, this is how most are sold with neither the buyer or seller even bothering to open and inspect it. 3) Many being aware of the factors in #2 go by this "no inspection, no issue" policy where they either know the piece is damaged and pass it along again or just don't want to look. I can't even count how many galleries, resellers and owners just in the past 6 months have sworn pieces to be "perfect" or "mint" and after the smoke clears I have found out they have never even looked at the piece beyond the framed glass, or that was their excuse, and then always blame the original owner, the framer or they old, I just never looked. Double sided tape, glue, non conservation grade materials.. the list goes on and on. There are some great framers out there but for every great one there are probably 10 that are not so good so know your framer, know your s**t or even better, know both! 

All and all yes, there are some deals to be had but when you see a low price or a price that seems "above market" wether from a private party, dealer or auction house...you need to know what was actually sold. To think that all the pieces my mates and I have returned or refused are most likely hanging in someone's home having no clue of what they truly have is scary and sad. 

I probably have gotten off topic here but I think if more people knew the questions to ask and what to look for it would put a big dent in this massive issue that for the most part goes unnoticed until it's too late. With the little that is out there, these pieces are scarce enough as it is and to pay or charge a premium for a truly top quality and preserved print is worth every penny imo. 

As you were. 

Great post. It deserves a second life.

There is certainly a significant amount of poor-quality framing work out there — often only recognisable as such after the artwork has been removed from the frame.

A number of framers will bandy about expressions like "archival", "conservation" or "museum standards" without really knowing what they're saying and being truly familiar with the relevant materials and techniques. It's as if they use these terms purely for sales purposes, like substitute wording for the largely meaningless description, "professionally framed".

I have no idea what the different percentages may be for framers whose typical quality of work is excellent, good, average, poor or disastrous. However, those in the latter two categories are probably more prevalent and less easily identifiable than cowboy builders.

One issue you mentioned, which is worth reiterating, is that poor-quality framing can look perfectly fine, even well-done, if you're just examining the framed work externally. I fear this gives people a false sense of security, leading them to prematurely judge and praise the calibre of their framers. For me, it makes uncomfortable reading if they then make public recommendations on the basis of these superficial inspections — even if combined with other factors, like delivery convenience or their framer being "a great guy".

I've seen cock-ups or shoddy work (including by one or two framers lauded on this forum) which, depending on the example, would make members here scratch their heads, laugh out loud, or weep.

[Black Apple Art]

Jul 10, 2015 22:06:29 GMT 1 met said:

Apr 23, 2015 9:19:47 GMT 1 Black Apple Art said:

I can honestly say, I haven't seen more prints available in a while as the high prices have obviously been bringing a new level of people willing to part with their pieces. But in contrast, without a doubt, I have never seen more damaged and less than investment quality prints in circulation ever. Between myself and several other buyers and collectors, I can honestly say more than half of all pieces I see for sale, and that's probably low, have undisclosed damage. I believe this is due to three main reasons:

1) We know many older pieces that were first purchased for a few hundred pounds or less were just not deemed worthy of spending more than a fraction of that framing. I think this is the smallest portion of the issue now as many have been flushed out, so no need to go further into that. 2) Most framers really do not possess the knowledge or skill to do true conservation framing. This combined with the most owners knowing even less, is a deadly combination resulting in a massive amount of prints out there with are severely damaged and getting worse with every passing day. The scary thing is many of these pieces look perfect framed and sadly enough, this is how most are sold with neither the buyer or seller even bothering to open and inspect it. 3) Many being aware of the factors in #2 go by this "no inspection, no issue" policy where they either know the piece is damaged and pass it along again or just don't want to look. I can't even count how many galleries, resellers and owners just in the past 6 months have sworn pieces to be "perfect" or "mint" and after the smoke clears I have found out they have never even looked at the piece beyond the framed glass, or that was their excuse, and then always blame the original owner, the framer or they old, I just never looked. Double sided tape, glue, non conservation grade materials.. the list goes on and on. There are some great framers out there but for every great one there are probably 10 that are not so good so know your framer, know your s**t or even better, know both! 

All and all yes, there are some deals to be had but when you see a low price or a price that seems "above market" wether from a private party, dealer or auction house...you need to know what was actually sold. To think that all the pieces my mates and I have returned or refused are most likely hanging in someone's home having no clue of what they truly have is scary and sad. 

I probably have gotten off topic here but I think if more people knew the questions to ask and what to look for it would put a big dent in this massive issue that for the most part goes unnoticed until it's too late. With the little that is out there, these pieces are scarce enough as it is and to pay or charge a premium for a truly top quality and preserved print is worth every penny imo. 

As you were. 

Great post. It deserves a second life.

There is certainly a significant amount of poor-quality framing work out there — often only recognisable as such after the artwork has been removed from the frame.

A number of framers will bandy about expressions like "archival", "conservation" or "museum standards" without really knowing what they're saying and being truly familiar with the relevant materials and techniques. It's as if they use these terms purely for sales purposes, like substitute wording for the largely meaningless description, "professionally framed".

I have no idea what the different percentages may be for framers whose typical quality of work is excellent, good, average, poor or disastrous. However, those in the latter two categories are probably more prevalent and less easily identifiable than cowboy builders.

One issue you mentioned, which is worth reiterating, is that poor-quality framing can look perfectly fine, even well-done, if you're just examining the framed work externally. I fear this gives people a false sense of security, leading them to prematurely judge and praise the calibre of their framers. For me, it makes uncomfortable reading if they then make public recommendations on the basis of these superficial inspections — even if combined with other factors, like delivery convenience or their framer being "a great guy".

I've seen cock-ups or shoddy work (including by one or two framers lauded on this forum) which, depending on the example, would make members here scratch their heads, laugh out loud, or weep.

Always good to spread the word and keep people informed thx

[met]

Jul 10, 2015 22:36:32 GMT 1 Black Apple Art said:

Jul 10, 2015 22:06:29 GMT 1 met said:

[...]

Always good to spread the word and keep people informed thx

A separate but somewhat connected point relates to forum pricing discussions for multiples, and specifically works on paper.

Members often quote various auction, eBay, gallery or private seller prices for secondary market prints from the same edition, with a view to gauging their current market values. In these exchanges, the condition of the different prints (or their possible condition issues) is rarely mentioned and considered.

It's worth keeping in mind that this leaves out a critical factor from the equation, to the extent that (at least as far as I'm concerned) such restricted discussions can be misleading and perhaps unhelpful — because most forum members are probably oblivious as to whether like is truly being compared with like.

It encourages scenarios where the blind may start to lead the blind.

Or, even worse, in cases where there may be information asymmetry (an unlevel information playing field), members with more access to information can cynically exploit their advantage with greater ease. For example, a well-briefed dealer-buyer can dishonestly refer to recent sale prices mentioned here for prints (that he or she knows were badly damaged, but where such damage was left undisclosed here) while negotiating the purchase of a pristine print from a less-informed private seller.

[Black Apple Art]

Jul 11, 2015 0:22:44 GMT 1 met said:

Jul 10, 2015 22:36:32 GMT 1 Black Apple Art said:

Always good to spread the word and keep people informed thx

A separate but somewhat connected point relates to forum pricing discussions for multiples, and specifically works on paper.

Members often quote various auction, eBay, gallery or private seller prices for secondary market prints from the same edition, with a view to gauging their current market values. In these exchanges, the condition of the different prints (or their possible condition issues) is rarely mentioned and considered.

It's worth keeping in mind that this leaves out a critical factor from the equation, to the extent that (at least as far as I'm concerned) such restricted discussions can be misleading and perhaps unhelpful — because most forum members are probably oblivious as to whether like is truly being compared with like.

It encourages scenarios where the blind may start to lead the blind.

Or, even worse, in cases where there may be information asymmetry (an unlevel information playing field), members with more access to information can cynically exploit their advantage with greater ease. For example, a well-briefed dealer-buyer can dishonestly refer to recent sale prices mentioned here for prints (that he or she knows were badly damaged, but where such damage was left undisclosed here) while negotiating the purchase of a pristine print from a less-informed private seller.

Great points met

[lee3]

>>>Members often quote various auction, eBay, gallery or private seller prices for secondary market prints from the same edition, with a view to gauging their current market values. In these exchanges, the condition of the different prints (or their possible condition issues) is rarely mentioned and considered.<<<

I think with the premier artist of this site, condition often becomes less of a factor than for many other artists and i say that curiously because the price differential is so great. Without blatantly obvious condition issues, it becomes a case of a very long line for limited work and sellers will simply take the next customer waiting which can lead to frustrated potential buyers.

While on the subject, i've never understood one who gets bent regarding light adhesive on the reverse. I've never had it happen to me and pay a large premium for archival but i have read others opinions and found it strange which is not a slight towards the perfectionists among us. Maybe I'm naive but have always felt that if it looks sterling from the front, then it's good enough for me.

>>>It encourages scenarios where the blind may start to lead the blind. <<<

That has never stopped anyone here. Hope you're well P.

[bgt5002]

Interesting to see Napalm so high. That's always been one of the price-friendlier pieces given the subject. Glad I got in early.

[Catman 74]

I think Napalm is a very underrated image..it deserves to be up there with the more popular prints.

[Ruggs]

Very reasonably priced 'Napalm' available here. hanguppictures.com/urban/artists/banksy/-unsigned/napalm-1