[pfffffffffft]

Sept 30, 2008 16:47:35 GMT 1 @snausages said:

Sept 30, 2008 16:36:43 GMT 1 pfffffffffft said:

Give it a rest, you seem to continue to talk out your ass when I continue to come back and provide facts and have been quite respectful about it. Then when the facts prove you wrong apparently I warrant a snotty eye roll.

Yes the almighty lord Banksy had spoken and contemporary collectors went running and screaming. That's all you have to consider in your world I suppose? Yes my points are completely invalid. I guess.

You stated this is an economic issue, and a contemporary art issue. I gave you the usual average unsold rates, current average unsold rates and compared to Lyon's unsold rate I think it's clear what happened here. FYI, the sale prior to that had 39% unsold at lyon, 3 days earlier and all low price general sale. Again, if that doesnt speak to the controversy surrounding that particular sale I dont know what does.

Your points are opinion, I continue to back up my statements with facts and you continue to behave like a spoiled child when the facts dont match your opinion.

I've been respectful thus far and you have been a snide and sarcastic ass and I wont put up with it any longer. Check yourself, and if you'd like to actually discuss whats going on out there, there are plenty of people on this board who are knowledgeable.

[guest2]

Banksys ArtWork fail to Shift. Next you'll be telling the forum that he don't paint his own pictures any more!

[snausages]

Respectful so far? Wrong.

The fact is that there is no facts about the sale. There is absolutely no way you can quantify exactly what happened. The 'facts' that you've brought up are not truth, they're anecdotal evidence to support your OPINION. Just like my 'facts' that the worst economic crisis since the great depression and L&T not really getting must have buys and very optimistic estimates are anecdotal evidence to support my opinion. The truth? It probably is that all of these things played a role in the disaster.

But the fact is that even after I said many posts ago that there is "no way to tell for sure." You decided that you were going to tell me for sure! And you relentlessly posted anecdotal "fact" after "fact" just to prove me wrong when I was ready to leave it be a matter of opinion.

Respectful so far? Get serious. You're not being respectful, you're making a concerted campaign to try and 'prove me wrong' presumably because I said things about Banksy that you disagree with. Sorry for the snide remark but you, respectful? My ass your being respectful. Your just trying to pump up your ego.

[pfffffffffft]

Sept 30, 2008 17:15:35 GMT 1 @snausages said:

Respectful so far? Wrong.

The fact is that there is no facts about the sale. There is absolutely no way you can quantify exactly what happened. The 'facts' that you've brought up are not truth, they're anecdotal evidence to support your OPINION. Just like my 'facts' that the worst economic crisis since the great depression and L&T not really getting must have buys and very optimistic estimates are anecdotal evidence to support my opinion. The truth? It probably is that all of these things played a role in the disaster.

But the fact is that even after I said many posts ago that there is "no way to tell for sure." You decided that you were going to tell me for sure! And you relentlessly posted anecdotal "fact" after "fact" just to prove me wrong when I was ready to leave it be a matter of opinion.

Respectful so far? Get serious. You're not being respectful, you're making a concerted campaign to try and 'prove me wrong' presumably because I said things about Banksy that you disagree with. Sorry for the snide remark but you, respectful? My ass your being respectful. Your just trying to pump up your ego.

Oh so I am not respectful because I am trying to make a point that contradicts your opinion and I provide facts to back it up? You havent been able to point to anything else, no other examples of me being disrespectful.

Seems to me that it's you who has the fragile ego if you can't bear to hear another opinion if it proves you wrong.

You seem to fight with a lot of people on this board, I think that speaks for itself.

[curiousgeorge]

Is it just me that thinks it a big mental to identify a large number of fakes, then NOT actually list/name them to avoid us 'real fans' being caught by them?

I thought 137 was a large number but even more? Again is it just me but this is a REAL issue is it not? I'm amazed a statement has not been made providing information on what to look out for etc.

Alsbabar can you speak for Laz/POW on this issue?

It seems to me 137 or more have been found, but yet no-one seems to want to actually know which one's. I'm obviously missing something here...

[alsbabar]

there are facts about the sale - why dont you ring up L&T and ask them - 1/3 of all lots sold - FACT, which means the other 2/3 didnt sell - ANOTHER FACT

again, jog on c**tchops

CG - no i cannot speak for Laz/POW, they can speak for themselves, or why dont you email them and ask them your questions. I think common sense would/shold prevail - given how easy it is to get your Banksy art authenticated with their online facility, I would insist on COA's prior to handing over money. Anyone selling a print which is worth thousands of pounds - a £50 cost is small price to pay in order to qualify your sale.

[curiousgeorge]

May do that thanks

What are your thoughts on that issue? Surprised no head's up has been given?

[snausages]

Sept 30, 2008 17:21:22 GMT 1 pfffffffffft said:

Sept 30, 2008 17:15:35 GMT 1 @snausages said:

Respectful so far? Wrong.

The fact is that there is no facts about the sale. There is absolutely no way you can quantify exactly what happened. The 'facts' that you've brought up are not truth, they're anecdotal evidence to support your OPINION. Just like my 'facts' that the worst economic crisis since the great depression and L&T not really getting must have buys and very optimistic estimates are anecdotal evidence to support my opinion. The truth? It probably is that all of these things played a role in the disaster.

But the fact is that even after I said many posts ago that there is "no way to tell for sure." You decided that you were going to tell me for sure! And you relentlessly posted anecdotal "fact" after "fact" just to prove me wrong when I was ready to leave it be a matter of opinion.

Respectful so far? Get serious. You're not being respectful, you're making a concerted campaign to try and 'prove me wrong' presumably because I said things about Banksy that you disagree with. Sorry for the snide remark but you, respectful? My ass your being respectful. Your just trying to pump up your ego.

Oh so I am not respectful because I am trying to prove you wrong? You havent been able to point to anything else, no other examples of me being disrespectful.

Seems to me that it's you who has the fragile ego if you can't bear to hear another opinion if it proves you wrong.

You seem to fight with a lot of people on this board, I think that speaks for itself.

And here you go again latching on to the idea that you are right and I'm wrong. You're trying to prove me wrong when there is no right or wrong.

There is nothing in this thread but opinion. No matter how many "facts" you think you have. And yes I find it disrespectful that you continue on with your quest to make sure everyone knows that I'm "wrong." Even when there is no such thing.

Any you need to check yourself as well because your posts towards me are very negative and attack oriented so don't pretend you're not instigating anything.

[savilerogue]

Sept 30, 2008 17:30:14 GMT 1 @snausages said:

Sept 30, 2008 17:21:22 GMT 1 pfffffffffft said:

Oh so I am not respectful because I am trying to prove you wrong? You havent been able to point to anything else, no other examples of me being disrespectful.

Seems to me that it's you who has the fragile ego if you can't bear to hear another opinion if it proves you wrong.

You seem to fight with a lot of people on this board, I think that speaks for itself.

And here you go again latching on to the idea that you are right and I'm wrong. You're trying to prove me wrong when there is no right or wrong.

There is nothing in this thread but opinion. No matter how many "facts" you think you have. And yes I find it disrespectful that you continue on with your quest to make sure everyone knows that I'm "wrong." Even when there is no such thing.

Any you need to check yourself as well because your posts towards me are very negative and attack oriented so don't pretend you're not instigating anything.

This thread is about opinions, yeah? In that case, I am of the opinion that you need to remove the Banksy chip from your shoulder and stop talking out your chuff.

[pfffffffffft]

Sept 30, 2008 17:30:14 GMT 1 @snausages said:

And here you go again latching on to the idea that you are right and I'm wrong. You're trying to prove me wrong when there is no right or wrong.

There is nothing in this thread but opinion. No matter how many "facts" you think you have. And yes I find it disrespectful that you continue on with your quest to make sure everyone knows that I'm "wrong." Even when there is no such thing.

Any you need to check yourself as well because your posts towards me are very negative and attack oriented so don't pretend you're not instigating anything.

My points have neither been negative or attack oriented up until your sarcastic posts starting on the vermin thread and moving to this thread. However, I'm as happy to go down that road as you seem to be if you like.

How very zen of you, there is no right or wrong. No but there are the circumstances surrounding this auction that make it different than the other auctions which make it a ridiculously easy conclusion to draw. I have given you sales numbers on Banksy over the past month showing an average of 25% unsold, taking the L & T auction out of the mix. I have provided unsold numbers at all of the houses including L & T that contradict this being an economic issue only, if it was, all of the houses would see this high a percentage of unsold lots.

No, not instigating anything other than backing up my opinion with facts, stats, and other information which would indicate my opinion being correct. You apparently can't bear to be wrong and take anyone disagreeing with your opinion as an attack.

This is an attack: you are still behaving like a pompous ass.

I think the difference between an attack and stating your case is clear. However, considering how much you attack many others on this board I would suggest if you cant bear being wrong or under attack perhaps you should stop attacking others.

[snausages]

No, what you're doing is an attack. You're trying to make it look as though you being oh so nice and diplomatic but what you're doing is an attack plain and simple.

And once again you come back giving out anecdotal evidence "which would indicate my opinion being correct." Even though there is no "correct." Can you get that through your head. You just can't stop with this whole I'm right and you're wrong thing can you? This is why you got a snide remark to begin with.

For the sake of ending this thread I'll agree you're 100% "right" as long as you tell me that you think that the worst stock market situation ever, rapidly declining home prices, a weak art market in general, overzealous auction estimates, and a lack of iconic must have auction pieces played no role in the outcome whatsoever.

[pfffffffffft]

Sept 30, 2008 17:47:23 GMT 1 @snausages said:

No, what you're doing is an attack. You're trying to make it look as though you being oh so nice and diplomatic but what you're doing is an attack plain and simple.

And once again you come back giving out anecdotal evidence "which would indicate my opinion being correct." Even though there is no "correct." Can you get that through your head. You just can't stop with this whole I'm right and you're wrong thing can you? This is why you got a snide remark to begin with.

For the sake of ending this thread I'll agree you're 100% "right" as long as you tell me that you think that the worst stock market situation ever, rapidly declining home prices, a weak art market in general, overzealous auction estimates, and a lack of iconic must have auction pieces played no role in the outcome whatsoever.

I am going to settle this now.

Here's the deal...I just totalled up the number of unsold lots at the L & T auction, 70% of the lots at L & T were unsold. You think it's the solely because of the economy, and as I stated in an earlier post I think the current average is 35% (which again is double the usual unsold numbers due to the economic issues) and it was the controversy over those lots that caused such an abnormally high unsold rate.

I would be willing to bet you 1000 GBP that there will not be 70% unsold at either Bonhams or Dreweatts upcoming Urban art auctions.

If you are so confident in your opinion that the failure at L & T was all the economy and had nothing to do with the controversy over Vermin then let's back it up with a wager.

[rosstierney]

[snausages]

Sept 30, 2008 17:55:47 GMT 1 pfffffffffft said:

Sept 30, 2008 17:47:23 GMT 1 @snausages said:

No, what you're doing is an attack. You're trying to make it look as though you being oh so nice and diplomatic but what you're doing is an attack plain and simple.

And once again you come back giving out anecdotal evidence "which would indicate my opinion being correct." Even though there is no "correct." Can you get that through your head. You just can't stop with this whole I'm right and you're wrong thing can you? This is why you got a snide remark to begin with.

For the sake of ending this thread I'll agree you're 100% "right" as long as you tell me that you think that the worst stock market situation ever, rapidly declining home prices, a weak art market in general, overzealous auction estimates, and a lack of iconic must have auction pieces played no role in the outcome whatsoever.

I am going to settle this now.

Here's the deal...I just totalled up the number of unsold lots at the L & T auction, 70% of the lots at L & T were unsold. You think it's the solely because of the economy, and as I stated in an earlier post I think the current average is 35% (which again is double the usual unsold numbers due to the economic issues) and it was the controversy over those lots that caused such an abnormally high unsold rate.

I would be willing to bet you 1000 GBP that there will not be 70% unsold at either Bonhams or Dreweatts upcoming Urban art auctions.

If you are so confident in your opinion that the failure at L & T was all the economy and had nothing to do with the controversy over Vermin then let's back it up with a wager.

Back it up with a wager? Well, I would if there was some supreme authority on the matter that could divine the answer but unfortunately there isn't. Can you not get that? There IS NO supreme "right" or "wrong."

[snausages]

And before you think you've "settled this now." Please explain to me the discrepancy between the sales results at Bloomsbury and L&T.

Fact 1:
A Banksy Stop & Search sold at Bloomsbury on Sept 18 for £2200 plus premium.
cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/427A-Banksy-b-1975-stop-and-search_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ39Q3a1Q7c66Q3a2Q7c65Q3a13Q7c240Q3a1318QQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem170258765621QQitemZ170258765621
(Please note that Banksy did not urge his followers to boycott this auction)

Fact 2:
A Banksy Stop & Search sold at L&T on Sept 18 for £2800 plus premium.
cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/222076-167-BANKSY-BRITISH-B-1975-STOP-AND_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ39Q3a1Q7c66Q3a2Q7c65Q3a13Q7c240Q3a1318QQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem280266438936QQitemZ280266438936
Well actually that one didn't sell because the reserve was set so high. Interesting eh? Don't think that might have been a factor? In fact I think it's particularly odd that this same exact print was bid ONE THOUSAND DOLLARS more at L&T despite Banksy urging his followers to boycott the sale. Don't you?

Think this maybe blows a little hole in your theory?

[seidbereit]

Eh?

To me, pfffffft (I didn't count the Fs so apologies if mispelt) has made quite a simple and very effective test of the statements made on here on this subject, and I for one wouild very much welcome this "debate" coming to a very swift end.

Here you are snausages:

You say: 80% unsold = economic failure with a sprinkling of "Banksy moaning"

pffffft says: 80% unsold = auction house / vermin failure with a large dose of "Banksy winning"

If the Bonhams and Drewatts auctions show normal levels of unsold lots again, then that - for me - is all the proof anyone will need that the vermin / L+T failings were the drivers in an 80% unsold rate.

Good man pffffffft. The end is hopefully nigh (of this discussion that is)


EDIT: oops - I thought I'd hit the quote button. The above is a response to snausages post which went thus: Back it up with a wager? Well, I would if there was some supreme authority on the matter that could divine the answer but unfortunately there isn't. Can you not get that? There IS NO supreme "right" or "wrong."

[snausages]

Great deduction seid! But one more thing care to explain how in the world some Banksy prints actually were bid higher at L&T than they've been bid at other auction houses despite oh lord Banksy telling his followers to boycott the sale!?!

[snausages]

sure lay out the details and while you're at it I'll ask one more time. Could you please explain why 2 different stop and search prints were bid higher at L&T than other auction houses despite the lord Banksy telling his lemmings not to bid? I'm still at loss on that one.

[pfffffffffft]

Sept 30, 2008 19:23:16 GMT 1 @snausages said:

And before you think you've "settled this now." Please explain to me the discrepancy between the sales results at Bloomsbury and L&T.

Fact 1:
A Banksy Stop & Search sold at Bloomsbury on Sept 18 for £2200 plus premium.
cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/427A-Banksy-b-1975-stop-and-search_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ39Q3a1Q7c66Q3a2Q7c65Q3a13Q7c240Q3a1318QQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem170258765621QQitemZ170258765621
(Please note that Banksy did not urge his followers to boycott this auction)

Fact 2:
A Banksy Stop & Search sold at L&T on Sept 18 for £2800 plus premium.
cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/222076-167-BANKSY-BRITISH-B-1975-STOP-AND_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ39Q3a1Q7c66Q3a2Q7c65Q3a13Q7c240Q3a1318QQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem280266438936QQitemZ280266438936
Well actually that one didn't sell because the reserve was set so high. Interesting eh? Don't think that might have been a factor? In fact I think it's particularly odd that this same exact print was bid ONE THOUSAND DOLLARS more at L&T despite Banksy urging his followers to boycott the sale. Don't you?

Think this maybe blows a little hole in your theory?

You must be joking. You are comparing apples with monkeys.

I never suggested it was a giant Banksy boycott, I stated it spooked buyers across the board so they stayed away, thus 70% of the lots unsold. Hell, if I had known there was going to be so little competition at L & T I would have bid on a few of those Banksy prints that were PC authenticated.

Since you seem to think you've blown my theory out of the water, I would LOVE to take you up on that wager.

[seidbereit]

Sept 30, 2008 19:28:55 GMT 1 @snausages said:

Great deduction seid! But one more thing care to explain how in the world some Banksy prints actually were bid higher at L&T than they've been bid at other auction houses despite oh lord Banksy telling his followers to boycott the sale!?!

Hmmm yes, I sure a lot of us are wondering who exactly those bidders were. I'll let my imagination run wild on that one if you don't mind. I think typing my true thoughts here could end up resulting in trouble for me or Silky so I'll keep them to myself.

[snausages]

Well look at that Seid. You have an opinion on who those bidders might have been!!! Well that's almost as good as anecdotal facts!!!

And I'm sure Vermin was really concerned about bidding up a $5000 screenprint in a paltry attempt to save face. Ridiculous.

[pfffffffffft]

Sept 30, 2008 19:46:58 GMT 1 @snausages said:

Well look at that Seid. You have an opinion on who those bidders might have been!!! Well that's almost as good as anecdotal facts!!!

And I'm sure Vermin was really concerned about bidding up a $5000 screenprint in a paltry attempt to save face. Ridiculous.

Careful, that temper of yours is showing again Snausages.

[snausages]

Sept 30, 2008 19:39:32 GMT 1 pfffffffffft said:

Sept 30, 2008 19:23:16 GMT 1 @snausages said:

And before you think you've "settled this now." Please explain to me the discrepancy between the sales results at Bloomsbury and L&T.

Fact 1:
A Banksy Stop & Search sold at Bloomsbury on Sept 18 for £2200 plus premium.
cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/427A-Banksy-b-1975-stop-and-search_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ39Q3a1Q7c66Q3a2Q7c65Q3a13Q7c240Q3a1318QQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem170258765621QQitemZ170258765621
(Please note that Banksy did not urge his followers to boycott this auction)

Fact 2:
A Banksy Stop & Search sold at L&T on Sept 18 for £2800 plus premium.
cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/222076-167-BANKSY-BRITISH-B-1975-STOP-AND_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ39Q3a1Q7c66Q3a2Q7c65Q3a13Q7c240Q3a1318QQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem280266438936QQitemZ280266438936
Well actually that one didn't sell because the reserve was set so high. Interesting eh? Don't think that might have been a factor? In fact I think it's particularly odd that this same exact print was bid ONE THOUSAND DOLLARS more at L&T despite Banksy urging his followers to boycott the sale. Don't you?

Think this maybe blows a little hole in your theory?

You must be joking. You are comparing apples with monkeys.

I never suggested it was a giant Banksy boycott, I stated it spooked buyers across the board so they stayed away, thus 70% of the lots unsold. Hell, if I had known there was going to be so little competition at L & T I would have bid on a few of those Banksy prints that were PC authenticated.

Since you seem to think you've blown my theory out of the water, I would LOVE to take you up on that wager.

So everyone was spooked because of this ...except apparently people bidding on Banksy prints. That makes a lot of sense.

Can you at least agree that high estimates were part of the problem. Those two stop and search prints should have sold if they weren't over the top with their estimates. Maybe we can meet halfway. Come on.

[pfffffffffft]

Sept 30, 2008 19:49:26 GMT 1 @snausages said:

So everyone was spooked because of this ...except apparently people bidding on Banksy prints. That makes a lot of sense.

Can you at least agree that high estimates were part of the problem. Those two stop and search prints should have sold if they weren't over the top with their estimates. Maybe we can meet halfway. Come on. [/quote]



People who buy originals arent usually the same people who buy prints. This is a much larger issue, apparently only 30 people showed up to bid on that auction, their faith was shaken in the house for making poor decisions in accepting Vermin authentication.

Take the wager snausages, do it.

[Deleted]

You know what's more interesting than this discussion? Donuts. There's a great place here in Seattle called "Mighty O Donuts". They're cake donuts, but very flavorful. Krispy Kreme is pretty good if you're into yeast ones and they offer them in the UK at Paddington station and Selfridges.

[pfffffffffft]

Sept 30, 2008 19:58:39 GMT 1 @amin said:

You know what's more interesting than this discussion? Donuts. There's a great place here in Seattle called "Mighty O Donuts". They're cake donuts, but very flavorful. Krispy Kreme is pretty good if you're into yeast ones and they offer them in the UK at Paddington station and Selfridges.

I concur...any insight on donuts in NY?

[Guest]

and at liverpool street station, just in case that is nearer

[Deleted]

Sept 30, 2008 20:00:50 GMT 1 pfffffffffft said:

Sept 30, 2008 19:58:39 GMT 1 @amin said:

You know what's more interesting than this discussion? Donuts. There's a great place here in Seattle called "Mighty O Donuts". They're cake donuts, but very flavorful. Krispy Kreme is pretty good if you're into yeast ones and they offer them in the UK at Paddington station and Selfridges.

I concur...any insight on donuts in NY?

This is a required stop for anyone that visits NYC: doughnutplant.com/

The rose petal donuts are a delight.

Off topic, Magnolia Bakery for cupcakes is more hype than tastiness.

[snausages]

Oh right, guess that's game set match! Except that the majority of items in that auction were prints or low dollar items. I mean it still makes no sense to me that everyone was spooked except for Print collectors. Looks like half of the items at L&T were prints or low value lots.

Anyway this one was a real keeper!
www.lyonandturnbull.com/asp/fullCatalogue.asp?salelot=222+++++++49+&refno=++108808
Guess all the Weismann fanatics were "spooked." Can't believe no one bid :/

And you don't think that the fact that they put a reserve of £3000 on a Color Trolley was an issue. When that print is selling for about £2000?

You don't think putting a reserve of £2500 on a set of skateboard decks was an issue? Do ya?
www.lyonandturnbull.com/asp/searchresults.asp?pg=4&ps=25
Although they have achieved that price individually once or twice that reserve is much higher than the average price for those.

And I already told you — spell out the terms of the wager and I'll let you know if I accept. But as I've been saying all along there are numerous factors involved in auction results and I doubt that one or two more auctions will clarify anything. I certainly think Banksy speaking out was part of it and I think the fact that it's half rate auction house with aggressive estimates in a tough financial time was the other.

But if you want to keep bouncing "facts" off each other go right ahead.

[nacional]

And even more interesting than donuts is the trend for people to have young ladies with huge bouncing "dirty pillows" as their avatars. I fully support this trend and think it is the way forward for all kinds of art forums, urban and others.

Please feel free to change your avatars to bouncing jugs and post anything below.....