[spirit]

Jan 14, 2009 17:16:55 GMT 1 Mike Marcus said:

I'm glad you asked that greeney. I think that Israel should take the following actions:

1) open borders between Egypt and Gaza, remove sea blockades and let in international aid
2) Dismantle the settler movement and assist in any future international prosecutions to members of that movement for willingly and knowingly breaking international law and by doing so, putting their co-patriots at risk.
3) Immediately stop all military occupation of the west bank and divert all military funding into grants to help Palestinian communities rebuild.
4) Start immediate talks concerned with finding a resolution to the "right of return" and east jerusalem issues.
5) Enter into talks with Syria with the intention of returning the golan heights in return for a peace treaty.
6) Seek international help in achieving these goals and stopping any marginalised militant action that might occur as a result.

oh, and while all that is being organised, dismantle the wall and retreat to the green line, thereby giving up any and all attempts at land grabbing.

What an excellent post (which I agree with completely) - thank you for your contribution to this debate Mike - when comments such as yours come from an Israeli Jew, it makes it so much harder to counter them with the usual, all too easy, "anti-semitic" response and this thereby encourages reasoned debate.

For the first time in any of these threads I have seen seen people with a pro-israeli (state) viewpoint actually engage in rational reasoned discussion (greeneny & daveart) and I don't think this would have happened at all without your input - thank you.

I am still hopeful you may even encourage Timba to say something, anything, to justify his statements - which despite multiple requests, he has systematically failed to do, other than - "i think they're actions are for the right reasons.....end of"- and it really doesn't get much weaker than that.

You lay out the path to peace as clearly as possible. If Israel followed this path I believe peace would come very quickly. By resorting to death and destruction Israel simply creates more enemies for itself both locally and globally. It would be in Israels best interest to follow this path - I am certain of that.

However, I am equally certain that it is sadly, unlikely to happen - as this would mean giving up the zionist dream of a Greater Israel for ever.

Daveart - you make a good point with regards to Hamas. I certainly have little time for militant Islam (or militant judaeism or militant christianity) and would much prefer to see a secular palestinian government in Gaza. However, Hamas are the democratically elected government of the palestinian people and if democracy is to have any value at all, this should be respected.

I think that the palestinians have turned to Hamas out of desperation, they have seen that the concessions made by Fatah/Abbas have led to little/no improvement in their situation. With the latest events in Gaza I feel that many Palestinians will regard Abbas as basically a traitor for dealing with those who bring them so much bloodshed and destruction.

Death and oppression feeds into the hands of radical militant groups like Hamas. As the west must bear responsibility for the creation and rise of groups like Al Queda, Israel must bear some responsibilitiy for the rise of Hamas and Hezbollah.

Palestinians are a people like anyone else, the majority just want to get on with their lives in peace, and I am sure that if they were not such an abused people and were allowed their self respect and human rights, the power that Hamas currently holds would gradually melt away.

[spirit]

Greeneny - you asked Mike the question, and he answered it - I would be very interested to hear your opinion about what he said.

[brun]

these actions by israel are breeding more and more of your terrorists guaranteed ! i am sure its a hard time being jewish but i think its a hell of a lot harder being a palestinian ! am sure you are struggling to hang your prints at home while they collect their kids feet from the roadside ! check the pictures on
www.informationclearinghouse.info/article21743.htm
if you can handle it !

last time i went to israel (i mean tried to go) i see how they treat non israeli , non jewish non hebrew speaking foreigners ......like scum ! there i was in a room with 3 arab israelis , 2 americans and me ( going to tel aviv for the day invited and with VIP clearance called security centre passenger ) but they treated me like i was a palestinian refugee ,took everything from me and ran it through their system for an hour or so . i wouldnt mind but i was invited and already had clearance to travel VIP . i am a dj going to play in tel aviv to cheer the people up a bit ....if i spoke hebrew or had a jewish cousin - no problem ! they all boarded the flight without an issue ........
when i protested about my treatment alongside the arab family and american girls (at stansted airport) they told me not to upset the other passengers , then they accused me of handling explosives (found traces on luggage) and refused me a flight ......all this in the uk ! of course they didnt contact uk police to tell them i had handled explosives ...err cos i hadnt ! if thats how they treat me , how do they treat palestinians on their doorstep ? they think they can get away with murder
ps being anti israeli is not anti semitic ...........

[brun]

i posted a coment on a thread about the gaza war which has since been pulled by silky.
i must have been the 5th or so person to post.
above me was pro hamas and every single post below (30 or so posts) was pro hamas.
not 1 pro israel.

what uttter tripe is this calling everyone pro hamas ? its the george bush solution "with us or against us" .....not one single post was pro - hamas . yes most were anti israel but not pro hamas ...........

[hellomum]

Spirit I beleive you are being kinder on Greeneny than is deserved. I do not believe his post and statement: "No one seems to ever be able to get beyond condemning Israel to explaining what they would do ... how they would end the rockets and mortars being fired at civilians." quite rings true.

Here are some of my previous exerts, some in response to greeneny himself.

"does any one really think this inhuman act of barbarity is going to stop or weaken Hamas, the history of this conflict provides us with the obvious answer."

"withdrawing to the international recognised borders of 1967, (this of course leaves less than) a mere 20 percent of historic Palestine. (UN 242.) Cease and dismantle there illegal settlements in the west bank, cease the un-vetted aggression and terror that has lead to thousands of deaths and stop the systematic siege of torture that has starved 1.5 million people squeezed and locked into the Gaza strip, a densely populated prison ghetto roughly the size of the Isle of Wight."

"Northern Ireland and various other historic and political situations can provide us with good examples of what can work and what cannot. One lesson we should all learn is that in any peace process, you negotiate not with your friends but your enemy."

"No negotiating with Hamas will pave the way for even more hard-line groups like Islamic Jihad, history should tell us when the ballot does not work the bullet will always come in to play. Again let me state something we should all know from history's examples; you negotiate with your enemy not your friends"

"The western powers as the dominant political force over the last hundred years, have constantly without fail undermined the very freedom it purports. That entailed breed a very angry people increasingly hostile in reaction. This mutation is not irreversible but will need radical change in policy to prevent further inflammation. I will sum it up in one clear sentence:

Get your grubby fingers out of the middle eastern honey jar pooh governments of the west"

Something from Wallkandy I posted:

"Negotiate, negotiate, negotiate, with President Abbas if you like, but I stress Hamas has to be involved. In negotiating you talk to your enemy's not your friends. Whether Israel or the world like it, they are part of the Palestinian peoples struggle and are democratically elected as their leading party. Hamas would agree to a ceasefire if they were brought into dialogue, they are on record as saying so.

Israel should withdraw to the 1967 borders (UN 242, internationally recognized and ignored) that means dismantling and stopping expansion of settlements in the West Bank. Stop daily incursions in both the West Bank and Gaza and all that entails. Open the borders and lift the economic seize that continues to strangle Gaza. In return Hamas and the PA would guarantee no rockets or attacks from them of the various factions within Palestine.

The many other questions can then be negotiated over time.

Again, this is an occupation and I will say it loud and clear; you will always have resistance under occupation. If the international community really want to squeeze extremists and strengthen moderates, then please for God sake prove to them that diplomacy and dialogue work. Because at the moment, the US is doing exactly what it did when Israel attacked Lebanon, stalling for time. The only reason Israel left Lebanon was because they began to lose too many troops. Abbas at the moment for all his negotiations has failed to improve daily Palestinian life, infact as we see it has just got worse and worse. I know its an old cliche and I use it far to often but "when the ballot fails, the bullet will always come into play.

End the occupation and everything will fall into place.

NO justice NO peace"

Many others on here have said the same, to ignore this is simply selective for self serving purposes.

May I also salute you Mike for your post and wise words.

STOP THE SLAUGHTER

demonstration Saturday 17th January, London, rest of the UK and World.

[greeneny]

"Again, this is an occupation and I will say it loud and clear; you will always have resistance under occupation."
"End the occupation and everything will fall into place."

You can say it as loud and clear as you please but it won't make it any less a bunch of nonsense
There was no so called resistance, in fact no "outcry" whatsoever when Egypt OCCUPIED Gaza and Jordan OCCUPIED the West Bank.
How come?

[dirtysanchez]

Jan 14, 2009 23:29:26 GMT 1 greeneny said:

"Again, this is an occupation and I will say it loud and clear; you will always have resistance under occupation."
"End the occupation and everything will fall into place."

You can say it as loud and clear as you please but it won't make it any less a bunch of nonsense
There was no so called resistance, in fact no "outcry" whatsoever when Egypt OCCUPIED Gaza and Jordan OCCUPIED the West Bank.
How come?

LONG LIVE PALESTINE - LONG LIVE GAZA

[hellomum]

Jan 14, 2009 23:29:26 GMT 1 greeneny said:

"Again, this is an occupation and I will say it loud and clear; you will always have resistance under occupation."
"End the occupation and everything will fall into place."

You can say it as loud and clear as you please but it won't make it any less a bunch of nonsense
There was no so called resistance, in fact no "outcry" whatsoever when Egypt OCCUPIED Gaza and Jordan OCCUPIED the West Bank.
How come?

What kind of answer's that? I said your statement "No one seems to ever be able to get beyond condemning Israel to explaining what they would do ... how they would end the rockets and mortars being fired at civilians." rings untrue. You're ridiculous, how on earth does that invalidate my point. But then again you constantly fail to properly debate the points I make. I need not explain this further, a careful look through all our posts should make this more than apparent.

Although I must salute you in your steadfast defense of the indefensible.

NO justice NO peace

[spirit]

Jan 14, 2009 23:12:37 GMT 1 @hellomum said:

Spirit I beleive you are being kinder on Greeneny than is deserved...

It seems you are right - I was getting at what seemed, for a short moment, to be the first glimmer of an opening of the mind when he asked Dave "what would you do?" I thought for a second that he might actually be looking beyond his "we have no choice but to bomb them/they deserve it/there's no other way" viewpoint.

But by the fact that he has come online, and gone again, without making any response to what Dave said, thus completely avoiding the issues he raised (despite the fact that I made a post specifically asking him for his opinion on it) I think I was giving him too much credit.

[hellomum]

Jan 14, 2009 23:29:26 GMT 1 greeneny said:

"Again, this is an occupation and I will say it loud and clear; you will always have resistance under occupation."
"End the occupation and everything will fall into place."

You can say it as loud and clear as you please but it won't make it any less a bunch of nonsense
There was no so called resistance, in fact no "outcry" whatsoever when Egypt OCCUPIED Gaza and Jordan OCCUPIED the West Bank.
How come?

Mr Greeneny you said something similar last year on the Santa's Ghetto thread, here was my reply:

"Palestinians were sold out by the neighboring Arab states and have been ever since, … The neighboring states were only in it for there own interest and are as much to blame as Israel or the British."

"I am against all oppression, whether it be the Israeli government or tin pot Arab dictators like Mubarak of Egypt or the Casino Royale Sheik's, the Saudi Royal family. I am a human that cares for all humans, I condemn the killing of innocent lives whoever they may be, the thing is you don't. For the sake of both sides the occupation needs to end."

P.S.

Do you seriously believe that people are happy being occupied?

NO justice NO peace

[Mike Marcus]

Greeney: You need to go back and read some (non zionist) history about the region. Gaza was Egyptian since way before Ottoman Empire and even then it was a result of cultural and economic dominance rather than invasion.

Palestine and Transjordan were one territory under the British mandate and in fact the modern Hashemite kingdom is almost entirely made up of ethnic Palestinians. Jordan didn't occupy the west bank any more than Britain occupies Milton Keynes.