[Art is fun]

It’s insane how an artist will break their personal record and have continued growth before that. To then have these auction houses be like ‘hmmm if his last piece sold for that much, why don’t we say his next one is prolly only worth a fourth of that or better yet a eighth.’ The logic doesn’t make sense and in turn makes these rich rich millionaires question the artist and the piece. A 24 x 20 beautiful canvas of his new style just got posted on Sothebys for Auction next week. It has an estimate of 2,000-3,000$… A 24 x 20 canvas sold for 100k last year. I get the art market is done and inflation and so on. But the estimates of other artists I realized never wavered. It just didn’t make sense that despite his continued rise in auctions for hammer price. Why would they give him such low estimates of late? Who in the fook is deciding these horrible prices. Literally just keep the estimates high and nothing is effected. Lol y’all will get payed, Artist prices will rise, galleries will have more want. Just insane business and logic by these auction houses. 

[Art is fun]

A 65 inch Bozo Canvas just sold for $12,000 all because it didn’t have a reserve. Inflation is not killing the art market, it is these auction houses.

[cnrdvln]

which auction house was this?

[Art is fun]

Good ole Christie’s & Sotheby’s

[Pawel]

Dec 13, 2022 9:31:22 GMT 1 Art is fun said:

A 65 inch Bozo Canvas just sold for $12,000 all because it didn’t have a reserve. Inflation is not killing the art market, it is these auction houses.

75x65 sold for 75k 5 days ago. I'd be fuming if mine went for 12k

[Art is fun]

Ino all it takes is a freaking reserve and a decent estimate from the previous results lol such crappy jobs by these art houses. Literally they have some random front desk person who they just hired last week write these estimates in last second on a whim guess.

[rizza79]

the estimates go on recent market conditions and are in general lower. if anyone is manipulating the market it is not the auction houses, but the collectors who own loads of work that was bought from the studio before works were carefully filtered through certain galleries and certain auctions in order to generate hype and build a market that never existed. Susumu is only one case of this......there are many.

i actually look at these sort of estimates as an opportunity to purchase work from a good artist for a reasonable price. after all, everyone is just buying because they love the work, right : )

[Art is fun]

Ya I buy cuss I love his art but if what I payed for originals are now being slashed by auctions just by the estimate alone. Then in the end I took a loss on an Artist I love. Just doesn’t seem right considering how well he was doing. Even his latest print is 5,500$ retail from Aliso, but a 24 inch original is only worth 3,000$? Something seems off.

[Art is fun]

By the way a poodle sold on May 29th sold for $225,000. So I’m a little confused as to what u mean by a market that was never there. Also is not his highest result..

[Art is fun]

For example tho, under this same auction that is selling Kenny Schachter’s collection. The Susumu is 24 inches and estimated to be worth 2-3,000$ while a 24 inch Marcus Brutus is estimated to be worth 7-9,000$. So based on this auction house and its great employees that do such extensive research, they estimate Marcus should be worth 4 times what Susumu is worth. Someone please make it make sense. Cuss based on previous results the estimates should be switched. Even if we’re talking really recent, Susumu sold at auction for 88,000$ on November 16th, which had a legit correct estimate of 60-80,000$. The piece was 2 and a half times bigger then the 24 inch one but still based on this, the estimate should be around 25,000-30,000$. That would make everything perfectly acceptable.

[Humble Art Collector]

Auction houses are a very distorted place to get real valuations on a living artist. Artists who are most likely still producing works and working within the gallery ecosystem where new works are being created and where publicity and life style choices can affect your valuations quickly. It is easy to get a "pop" result and equally easy to get a "low" result. Saying that any of our works are worth the one time highest value hit is not realistic nor is the lowest. For me the true value of a living artists works lays way past any of our lifetimes. In the interim it is all speculation and will have massive swings like the stock market and you have to hit it right if you are buying for resell / value vs appreciation. In general auction houses put very conservative estimates on works to encourage action and to have the ability to say most works went above estimate. good for marketing.

[Art is fun]

Totally but 2-3k for a 24 inch new style Lolol at least make it 20k

[samfrost]

If you are using estimates to evaluate things...you're doing it all wrong. It is more than just 1 or 2 results as well. Think broadly in terms of collector base, representation and be a student of art history, not a trend follower.

[rizza79]

Since we are talking about the Hoarder sale, let's put all the facts in play. The estimates are super meaningless. Outside of a few pieces, whose estimates are still purposefully low, all the lots have no reserve. That means they start a $1. It is all just to encourage bidding. The Susumu is currently at $6500 with 20 bids, so in this case the low estimate worked already.

As for someone paying $225k for a susumu in May, I would highly doubt that is real. That is either shill bidding or someone that is an idiot or who was super wet for that particular painting.  Some of his first canvas works from Jack Hanley were just passed on during the Day sales at 60-80k. Primary for the large works at Venus were 80k and they definitely didn't sell them all. Perrotin prices stuff a little higher because it seems their collectors tend to drink the kool aid and just blindly buy whatever is offered as it is some right of passage to get access from the gallery. All this being said, Susumu definitely has a market for his work, but it is still all over the place. I think the issue with him is that there is so much work out there that no one really knows what is what. There were people early in the game with well over 10 or more works before he ever even really showed.

The moral and lesson of this auction story is that estimates are pretty meaningless for emerging art. They are to garner interest and they change with results. Also, you may be jumping to conclusions with who made the estimate. I wouldn't be surprised if Kenny had a hand in making the estimates himself. Also, he got the work directly from the artist, so he may have got it for next to nothing at the end of a studio visit. That is how a lot of things work BTS. The idea in collecting, at least imo, is to buy what you like at the right time for good value, not chase a market. And if you miss the timing, then you buy in instances like this if you really want the work. If you have to have it, then you just pay the premium. 

There is a lot of non wet-paint artists that have recently been able to be had for very fair prices in some of these off the radar auctions. You just need to be informed, do your research, and be ready to make a play sans hesitation.

The last primary for a 24x20 susumu was low 20k at venus in the group show. That's the last pdf I have.

[Art is fun]

Totally understand, but for example, Sothebys has another poodle auction tomorrow. This one is 60 inches BUT is estimated to be worth 58,000-84,000$. These estimates seem more correct based on his market. BUT the image is not as good as the one being estimated for 2-3,000$, also based on 24 inches the correct estimate should be 21,000$- 47,000$. And no reserve. I still think the whole thing seems fishy. If it’s the same fucking auction house. 

[Art is fun]

Also in regards to the 225,000$ comment, it’s all public.. His top 10 sales are as follows

1. $275,000 November 2021
2. $225,000 May 2022
3. $132,000 November 2021
4. $115,000 March 2022
5. $113,000 January 2022
6. $110,000 March 2022
7. $107,000 May 2022
8. $100,000 September 2021
9. $97,000 April 2022
10. $95,000 June 2021

Again I just don’t think that estimate should be on his new style on a canvas.

[Jonas B]

People on here buy mainly low end art with the pure reason to make profit.
When it comes to advice on how the ‘real’ art market works I definitely wouldnt take any notice of the experts on here.
The one bit of good advice I would agree on is to do your own research.

[nobokov]

Dec 13, 2022 9:15:25 GMT 1 Art is fun said:

It’s insane how an artist will break their personal record and have continued growth before that. To then have these auction houses be like ‘hmmm if his last piece sold for that much, why don’t we say his next one is prolly only worth a fourth of that or better yet a eighth.’ The logic doesn’t make sense and in turn makes these rich rich millionaires question the artist and the piece. A 24 x 20 beautiful canvas of his new style just got posted on Sothebys for Auction next week. It has an estimate of 2,000-3,000$… A 24 x 20 canvas sold for 100k last year. I get the art market is done and inflation and so on. But the estimates of other artists I realized never wavered. It just didn’t make sense that despite his continued rise in auctions for hammer price. Why would they give him such low estimates of late? Who in the fook is deciding these horrible prices. Literally just keep the estimates high and nothing is effected. Lol y’all will get payed, Artist prices will rise, galleries will have more want. Just insane business and logic by these auction houses. 

It's just a regular auction house ploy to get more people interested and create a bidding war. Set it at a low price. The price range is an agreement between the seller and the auction house.

I wouldn't even be surprised if it was your own consignment and you were posting about it to get people interested. Hell, I've done it before. These auction houses don't do the marketing for you unless it's a big ticket item

[Pawel]

Dec 14, 2022 20:15:27 GMT 1 nobokov said:

Dec 13, 2022 9:15:25 GMT 1 Art is fun said:

It’s insane how an artist will break their personal record and have continued growth before that. To then have these auction houses be like ‘hmmm if his last piece sold for that much, why don’t we say his next one is prolly only worth a fourth of that or better yet a eighth.’ The logic doesn’t make sense and in turn makes these rich rich millionaires question the artist and the piece. A 24 x 20 beautiful canvas of his new style just got posted on Sothebys for Auction next week. It has an estimate of 2,000-3,000$… A 24 x 20 canvas sold for 100k last year. I get the art market is done and inflation and so on. But the estimates of other artists I realized never wavered. It just didn’t make sense that despite his continued rise in auctions for hammer price. Why would they give him such low estimates of late? Who in the fook is deciding these horrible prices. Literally just keep the estimates high and nothing is effected. Lol y’all will get payed, Artist prices will rise, galleries will have more want. Just insane business and logic by these auction houses. 

It's just a regular auction house ploy to get more people interested and create a bidding war. Set it at a low price. The price range is an agreement between the seller and the auction house.

I wouldn't even be surprised if it was your own consignment and you were posting about it to get people interested. Hell, I've done it before. These auction houses don't do the marketing for you unless it's a big ticket item

Isn't he represented by Almine though? Doesn't look good on their part

[nobokov]

Dec 14, 2022 20:23:29 GMT 1 Pawel said:

Dec 14, 2022 20:15:27 GMT 1 nobokov said:

It's just a regular auction house ploy to get more people interested and create a bidding war. Set it at a low price. The price range is an agreement between the seller and the auction house.

I wouldn't even be surprised if it was your own consignment and you were posting about it to get people interested. Hell, I've done it before. These auction houses don't do the marketing for you unless it's a big ticket item

Isn't he represented by Almine though? Doesn't look good on their part

It hasn't sold yet, so the estimate is a irrelevant at this point. It says it was acquired directly from the artist in 2021, so I'm guessing it was bought for around $10,000. If it closes at a low price, then Almine doesn't look bad in that they didn't have the proper controls to sell it to non-flipper, because they weren't involved in the sale.

[Pawel]

Dec 14, 2022 20:32:47 GMT 1 nobokov said:

Dec 14, 2022 20:23:29 GMT 1 Pawel said:

Isn't he represented by Almine though? Doesn't look good on their part

It hasn't sold yet, so the estimate is a irrelevant at this point. It says it was acquired directly from the artist in 2021, so I'm guessing it was bought for around $10,000. If it closes at a low price, then Almine doesn't look bad in that they didn't have the proper controls to sell it to non-flipper, because they weren't involved in the sale.

Oh I meant the Bozo that went for under 20k. Sorry

[nobokov]

Dec 14, 2022 20:58:35 GMT 1 Pawel said:

Dec 14, 2022 20:32:47 GMT 1 nobokov said:

It hasn't sold yet, so the estimate is a irrelevant at this point. It says it was acquired directly from the artist in 2021, so I'm guessing it was bought for around $10,000. If it closes at a low price, then Almine doesn't look bad in that they didn't have the proper controls to sell it to non-flipper, because they weren't involved in the sale.

Oh I meant the Bozo that went for under 20k. Sorry

Oh ok. I assume Bozo sold for that amount because hes a terrible artist, not cause of the auction house. Is he represented by Almine?

[collectionlover]

YAWN…..Holy shit this thread is stupid. Art Is Fun, if you have beef with how auction houses list their estimates take it up with then rather than bitch on here. I get the feeling you’re crying about this most recent auction because you invested in Susumu at some point and are now nervous about the current market standard. 

There shouldn’t be anything yo for debate here. Is Susumu a great artist? Yes. Is his market oversaturated because of D2C sales? Yes. Is his market manipulated? Fuck yes it is. Will he be a good long term investment? Who knows. He’s slowly moving away from his poodle style and focusing on a more “authentic” abstract approach. People either love it or hate it. 

Also, Venus didn’t sell everything from his last show. And they’ve been trying to push secondary works (at least according to their Basel PDF - one work was 150k, the other was 350k lol) 

[Art is fun]

I did hit up Sothebys actually lol and naw I’m deadass sick at home bored blad. If I want to start a discussion on an open forum I can how I fucking please. I got bigger shit to actually cry about. The art for sale page is so fucking boring with everyone’s shat art that I started a discussion. I paid all retail for my shit so I ain’t worried about nothing. I love the art and artist, just stating their estimates are weird. And if u think otherwise u ain’t been watching auctions for last 2 years involving Susumu. The debate was the estimate. The straight debate and only debate is that in no fucking way is a 24 x 20 inch 2021 canvas of his new style worth god damn 3 grand. So why state it as such. To bring in more bids, then why don’t they do that exact same tactic tomorrow for the 60 inch canvas? Riddle me that.

[nobokov]

Dec 15, 2022 0:08:15 GMT 1 Art is fun said:

I did hit up Sothebys actually lol and naw I’m deadass sick at home bored blad. If I want to start a discussion on an open forum I can how I fucking please. I got bigger shit to actually cry about. The art for sale page is so fucking boring with everyone’s shat art that I started a discussion. I paid all retail for my shit so I ain’t worried about nothing. I love the art and artist, just stating their estimates are weird. And if u think otherwise u ain’t been watching auctions for last 2 years involving Susumu. The debate was the estimate. The straight debate and only debate is that in no fucking way is a 24 x 20 inch 2021 canvas of his new style worth god damn 3 grand. So why state it as such. To bring in more bids, then why don’t they do that exact same tactic tomorrow for the 60 inch canvas? Riddle me that.

Looks like the estimate is accurate. The last three sales at sotheby's were passed lots so the seller's lucky the artwork even got accepted.

[rizza79]

the ship has sailed. It's a shame Venus didn't buy these if they really support his market. No reserve maybe would have been better. Also, this is the absolute worst timing to put stuff like this in an auction. During art basel miami and the holidays. I like Susumu as an artist and even more as a human being and have owned a number of them from early and still own some stuff. However, the new work is very tough to look at. I went to see the work at Venus and Hanley recently and you can just feel how lost he is with his practice. Hopefully he finds his way and gets back to making good work. He sure doesn't have to worry about making money for awhile with all the work that was sold out of the studio since 2018 to the present.

[nobokov]

Dec 16, 2022 6:06:08 GMT 1 rizza79 said:

the ship has sailed. It's a shame Venus didn't buy these if they really support his market. No reserve maybe would have been better. Also, this is the absolute worst timing to put stuff like this in an auction. During art basel miami and the holidays. I like Susumu as an artist and even more as a human being and have owned a number of them from early and still own some stuff. However, the new work is very tough to look at. I went to see the work at Venus and Hanley recently and you can just feel how lost he is with his practice. Hopefully he finds his way and gets back to making good work. He sure doesn't have to worry about making money for awhile with all the work that was sold out of the studio since 2018 to the present.

I don't agree. I prefer the newer grotesque abstractions of the poodle to the old frou frou poodle images. The older work felt bland and I was a never believer in his abilities until he started going abstract. It feels like he does have a direction now.

If I remember correctly, according to Susumu, he just started painting poodles just as a suggestion from Jonas Wood. I'd guess he kept painting those initial poodles out of commercial success and got bored with it. 

[18921892]

www.phillips.com/detail/susumu-kamijo/UK010822/64?fromSearch=susumu&searchPage=1


This is a nice piece.

[Quinnster]

I don’t see how an auction house benefits from selling stuff cheap.
I’m guessing you have a few works from this artist in the collection?

[Art is fun]

Every motherfucker on this app is like 48 years old collecting bansky prints, shut the fook up Blad.