[vandamme]

Thoughts on Banksy Purchase with no PC

If you had the chance of picking up a Banksy print that had no pest control, but you knew the owner, who is also the original owner. (I remember when they purchased the 2 prints. 1 from POW website and the other 1 was purchased queuing up several years later.)

How would one price these prints compared to the same prints with PC? (Mint condition)

Myself and the original owner are in agreement that the value is worth less than current market value but how much less is the hard question?

The likelihood is… If I buy the prints, I won’t be able to get provenance for them for at least a couple years.

If I am forced to sell them in that time then I will be faced with the same situation as the current owner, unable to get the full market value. Obviously the current market value is in my favour so is the fact the prints do no currently have pc and I know they are real.

To be clear I am not looking to sell the prints on behalf of anybody. I am after advice on how to value prints which do not have PC

thanks in advance. 

[samfrost]

Pest Control can authenticate with photos or inspection at times. Might be worth heading that route prior to sale or take a big gamble.

[Poster Bob]

My advice is not to touch anything without a COA due to reported waiting times of years. I got a COA last year and I think it took four or five months, but others haven't had the same experience.

[silvermyn]

Nov 16, 2021 22:35:13 GMT 1 vandamme said:

Thoughts on Banksy Purchase with no PC

If you had the chance of picking up a Banksy print that had no pest control, but you knew the owner, who is also the original owner. (I remember when they purchased the 2 prints. 1 from POW website and the other 1 was purchased queuing up several years later.)

How would one price these prints compared to the same prints with PC? (Mint condition)

Myself and the original owner are in agreement that the value is worth less than current market value but how much less is the hard question?

The likelihood is… If I buy the prints, I won’t be able to get provenance for them for at least a couple years.

If I am forced to sell them in that time then I will be faced with the same situation as the current owner, unable to get the full market value. Obviously the current market value is in my favour so is the fact the prints do no currently have pc and I know they are real.

To be clear I am not looking to sell the prints on behalf of anybody. I am after advice on how to value prints which do not have PC

thanks in advance. 

Vandamme - buy them, if you are sure that they are genuine. You have the original owners name. Get the address the owner lived when they bought the print and any receipts/proof of purchase. Original tubes etc.

If you need to sell, take them to one of the big auction houses (Sotheby's or Christie's) and they will get a very quick response from PC. They usually list them as COA pending. It's the same advice I would give the owner if he had asked.

If I was the original owner, I would be offering a very tiny discount for a lack of COA. I'd offer you like 5% tops, depending on the image.

Which prints are they, if you don't mind me asking? DM if you don't want to go public. I'll keep it to myself.

And above all good luck with whatever you decide.

[Richy Rich]

If I knew the owner and full provenance I wouldn’t expect any kind of discount. The only thing I’d potentially do is ask the seller to sign a witnessed document agreeing to buy back the piece if for any reason authenticity isn’t granted.

Lots of expensive artwork is still traded without COA’s. Pest Control is a great idea run badly. I certainly wouldn’t drop my price by thousands if the potential buyer knew the prints full background.

[Adam The Collector]

I love when posts start with "If you had the chance". walk away... go call up someone like Andy at Castle, spend the money and get a good work.

[My Name is Frank]

If you know the person and they have the receipts, its a discount of the cost of the COA applications only, I don't see how they do not have market value (provenance is there).

The same is true if you need to sell on in the wait for the certificates, you show the seller the receipts, the application in process and its up to them to buy or wait.

[The Italian One]

"Pest Control is a great idea run badly"

as simple as that

[Sam Am]

Same as second hand watches, no papers = hefty price reduction. Wouldn’t risk it personally.

[Sam Am]

Same as second hand watches, no papers = hefty price reduction. Wouldn’t risk it personally.

[eD]

Nov 17, 2021 9:12:29 GMT 1 The Italian One said:

"Pest Control is a great idea run badly"

as simple as that

"Pest Control is a great idea run strategically"

[Pootle]

I had a very similar situation earlier this year.

The seller, who I know, wanted the cash in the next few weeks and so didn’t want to wait for pc coa.

We agreed 25% less than market which we were both happy with. I was comfortable running the risk of no coa / coa being delayed given the context.

[JFCC]

I know there is a lot of criticism of Pest Control and I am sure a lot of it is valid (but not my experience) and I am also sure with the volume of sales they are up against it.

But what I will say on the authentication side they have been excellent!! Brilliant every single time!! I cannot fault them!!!

Each time they have been very quick, responding in days and very clear if the images are not good enough.

Use that process and it becomes a risk free purchase!!! Forget discounts to reduce the risk just use that process! Just my own experiences and views!!

[The Italian One]

Not long ago I used the "check before you buy" service, they were supposed to reply within 21 days , obviously the seller wouldn't had wait 3 weeks for the payment (Print in perfect conditions with COA but not in sellers name) so I decided to close the deal and pay for the print. Well after 3 month still haven't received a reply even if they asked for a closed up picture of the POW stamp ..

I'm not that worried about authenticity of the print as I bought it from a legit collector but still not sure if the print has some hide stories behind.

Maybe I'm just a bit paranoied but a reply from Pest Control saying "all good" when you pay that kind of amount would be appreciated.

[Pootle]

Nov 17, 2021 21:30:58 GMT 1 JFCC said:

I know there is a lot of criticism of Pest Control and I am sure a lot of it is valid (but not my experience) and I am also sure with the volume of sales they are up against it.

But what I will say on the authentication side they have been excellent!! Brilliant every single time!! I cannot fault them!!!

Each time they have been very quick, responding in days and very clear if the images are not good enough.

Use that process and it becomes a risk free purchase!!! Forget discounts to reduce the risk just use that process! Just my own experiences and views!!

I agree - if you can wait. This is the safest for buyers and sellers

[urbanauctioneer]

In my experience as an auctioneer, commercial works, i.e prints or paintings made by Banksy for sale without a PC cert tend to go for almost half what they should had they got a cert.

How do we all feel about his non-commercial or street works coming in for sale? Im not talking about things that have been chiselled off a wall, but things like his sculptures etc providing you have full and clear provenance?

[Richy Rich]

Nov 18, 2021 12:29:25 GMT 1 urbanauctioneer said:

In my experience as an auctioneer, commercial works, i.e prints or paintings made by Banksy for sale without a PC cert tend to go for almost half what they should had they got a cert.

How do we all feel about his non-commercial or street works coming in for sale? Im not talking about things that have been chiselled off a wall, but things like his sculptures etc providing you have full and clear provenance?

How many Banksy prints without COA have you auctioned and at which auction house? I've been following auction results for a few years have haven't got much recollection of any Banksy prints selling for 50% of their potential current value (even with COA pending.)

You sure you're not in cahoots with the OP working to drive down his purchase price?

[buffin]

Always a possibility that a COA has been applied for and refused.

[silvermyn]

Nov 18, 2021 12:29:25 GMT 1 urbanauctioneer said:

In my experience as an auctioneer, commercial works, i.e prints or paintings made by Banksy for sale without a PC cert tend to go for almost half what they should had they got a cert.

How do we all feel about his non-commercial or street works coming in for sale? Im not talking about things that have been chiselled off a wall, but things like his sculptures etc providing you have full and clear provenance?

I think you need to make a clear distinction between works capable of qualifying for a COA (commercial works) that haven't yet been certified, and those pieces incapable of being certified (street pieces).

Commercial pieces, GDP works, without COAs have sold recently through Tate Modern. I don't think they were 50% less than they would be with the COA. I guess we'll never know because there were no certified versions to compare prices with. Sale Ends V2 were fetching decent prices without COAs. When COAs became available the market had jumped so a like for like comparison cannot be made there either.

Street pieces tend to go way below commercial pieces primarily because the artist won't ever confirm it's his work. Prices reflect that.

[mouser]

How do gift prints fall into this? I have a signed plackard gift rat with email from pow neither confirming or denying etc… came from a well respected gallery that is still doing very well. Has provenance, just not coa 🤷🏼‍♂️

[silvermyn]

Nov 18, 2021 18:17:24 GMT 1 mouser said:

How do gift prints fall into this? I have a signed plackard gift rat with email from pow neither confirming or denying etc… came from a well respected gallery that is still doing very well. Has provenance, just not coa 🤷🏼‍♂️

Very generally speaking and all IMHO;

A gift print may qualify for a COA, if you are the person it was gifted to. I've seen some gift prints with COAs, as well as charity gift prints with COAs. Second owners,in your situation, don't stand a chance of getting a COA for a gift that was intended for someone else.

Generally, gift prints with named dedications on (e.g. "Thanks Thomas") don't get COAs, even if you are the original owner. I do, however, recall seeing a Kate Moss with a dedication to Rosie (I think) with a COA.

Bottom line is, I think it would very much depend on how much the artist or his team value you, and the circumstances of the application. There are no hard and fast rules with gift print.

I'm sure somebody with more knowledge will correct me if any of the above is incorrect.

[vandamme]

Unfortunately they have such a back log it’s likely going to take some time to get a reply. However looking at the website I see there are options now for checking before you buy which was not up when I last used the service.

Nov 16, 2021 22:44:16 GMT 1 samfrost said:

Pest Control can authenticate with photos or inspection at times. Might be worth heading that route prior to sale or take a big gamble.

[vandamme]

Thanks for all the feedback guys, this is not a case of asking for advice on actually buying the prints because of its authenticity. I know they are genuine. But appreciate the concern and warnings, I’m sure if I was reading someone else post the same thing I would say exactly the same.

Nov 16, 2021 22:45:14 GMT 1 Poster Bob said:

My advice is not to touch anything without a COA due to reported waiting times of years. I got a COA last year and I think it took four or five months, but others haven't had the same experience.

[vandamme]

Surely nobody in there right mind would pay the same price when they could by the print with the cert etc for the same. Unless the item in question is actually a super rare

Nov 17, 2021 0:06:05 GMT 1 Richy Rich said:

If I knew the owner and full provenance I wouldn’t expect any kind of discount. The only thing I’d potentially do is ask the seller to sign a witnessed document agreeing to buy back the piece if for any reason authenticity isn’t granted.

Lots of expensive artwork is still traded without COA’s. Pest Control is a great idea run badly. I certainly wouldn’t drop my price by thousands if the potential buyer knew the prints full background.

[vandamme]

This seems really reasonable for both parties. We have been discussing things in the 25-30% region but actually I would be more than happy with 25% off

Nov 17, 2021 20:09:45 GMT 1 Pootle said:

I had a very similar situation earlier this year.

The seller, who I know, wanted the cash in the next few weeks and so didn’t want to wait for pc coa.

We agreed 25% less than market which we were both happy with. I was comfortable running the risk of no coa / coa being delayed given the context.

[vandamme]

That’s really sound advice. I know the prints are genuine as I remember when they were bought by the original owner.

great tip on using the auction house to get pest control to authenticate. The last time I sold any Banksy prints was around 2011 and exactly the same thing happened to me. The only provenance I had was original owner info which I had previously cross referenced with edition numbers at pictures on walls. When I saw my prints in the auction catalogue they had been authenticated by pest control.

Nov 16, 2021 23:54:51 GMT 1 silvermyn said:

Nov 16, 2021 22:35:13 GMT 1 vandamme said:

Thoughts on Banksy Purchase with no PC

If you had the chance of picking up a Banksy print that had no pest control, but you knew the owner, who is also the original owner. (I remember when they purchased the 2 prints. 1 from POW website and the other 1 was purchased queuing up several years later.)

How would one price these prints compared to the same prints with PC? (Mint condition)

Myself and the original owner are in agreement that the value is worth less than current market value but how much less is the hard question?

The likelihood is… If I buy the prints, I won’t be able to get provenance for them for at least a couple years.

If I am forced to sell them in that time then I will be faced with the same situation as the current owner, unable to get the full market value. Obviously the current market value is in my favour so is the fact the prints do no currently have pc and I know they are real.

To be clear I am not looking to sell the prints on behalf of anybody. I am after advice on how to value prints which do not have PC

thanks in advance. 

Vandamme - buy them, if you are sure that they are genuine. You have the original owners name. Get the address the owner lived when they bought the print and any receipts/proof of purchase. Original tubes etc.

If you need to sell, take them to one of the big auction houses (Sotheby's or Christie's) and they will get a very quick response from PC. They usually list them as COA pending. It's the same advice I would give the owner if he had asked.

If I was the original owner, I would be offering a very tiny discount for a lack of COA. I'd offer you like 5% tops, depending on the image.

Which prints are they, if you don't mind me asking? DM if you don't want to go public. I'll keep it to myself.

And above all good luck with whatever you decide.

[vandamme]

Yes it was applied for over a year ago however I know the original owner bought the print direct so it would be strange for it not to be authenticated. Knowing what I know I would be happy to take the risk at an agreed price

Nov 18, 2021 13:27:39 GMT 1 buffin said:

Always a possibility that a COA has been applied for and refused.

[flingading]

I’ve bought and sold Banksy prints without COA’s for essentially market price. If you know for a fact that the print is genuine and you’re still asking for a 25-30% discount then you’re in essence asking for a reduction of £1000’s because you haven’t got a piece of paper with half a tenner on it.

[vandamme]

Well done on buying Banksy prints with out certification at market price. Are you talking pre pest control or since?? It’s a big difference.

Also where were you when I was trying to sell my Banksy print prior to receiving certification? The only offers I received were low ball offers because I didn’t have the certification. I decided not to sell in the end and wait 2 years for my piece of paper with a tenner on it which came through this year.

Nov 19, 2021 0:54:14 GMT 1 flingading said:

I’ve bought and sold Banksy prints without COA’s for essentially market price. If you know for a fact that the print is genuine and you’re still asking for a 25-30% discount then you’re in essence asking for a reduction of £1000’s because you haven’t got a piece of paper with half a tenner on it.

[flingading]

Nov 19, 2021 1:23:06 GMT 1 vandamme said:

Well done on buying Banksy prints with out certification at market price. Are you talking pre pest control or since?? It’s a big difference.

Also where were you when I was trying to sell my Banksy print prior to receiving certification? The only offers I received were low ball offers because I didn’t have the certification. I decided not to sell in the end and wait 2 years for my piece of paper with a tenner on it which came through this year.

Nov 19, 2021 0:54:14 GMT 1 flingading said:

I’ve bought and sold Banksy prints without COA’s for essentially market price. If you know for a fact that the print is genuine and you’re still asking for a 25-30% discount then you’re in essence asking for a reduction of £1000’s because you haven’t got a piece of paper with half a tenner on it.

No need for the attitude. We’re adults. I bought and sold these prints in the last few years, since Pest Control slowed to a halt.

I’m sorry you didn’t receive any suitable offers for your print. The big difference here is that you have admitted that you know for a fact that the prints are genuine. If you didn’t then by all means it seems acceptable to offer a reduced rate to see if the seller is happy.

These prints as you say are genuine, so it seems a little unfair for you to take advantage of Pest Control’s ineptitude by offering a reduced price.

Ultimately it’s up to the seller either way so as long as you’re both happy make the deal.