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Flipping Art • The Debate, by sixftjellybaby on Dec 27, 2008 2:09:25 GMT 1, Ps Also I forgot to mention I didn’t realise that it was my fault my “material desires “were to blame I do apologise (sarcasm) ;D
Ps Also I forgot to mention I didn’t realise that it was my fault my “material desires “were to blame I do apologise (sarcasm) ;D
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Flipping Art • The Debate, by snausages on Dec 27, 2008 22:21:42 GMT 1, If I am totally exact don’t wont to” showing off a print “I buy it cause I like it!
But because you want something "official" and "signed" too, well then it sounds like it's material desire that is the problem, not the artist nor the flippers.
If I am totally exact don’t wont to” showing off a print “I buy it cause I like it! Yeah but if all you want is an image cause you "like it" then go to ebay and buy a reproduction canvas for £25, problem solved. But because you want something "official" and "signed" too, well then it sounds like it's material desire that is the problem, not the artist nor the flippers. |
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Flipping Art • The Debate, by Coach on Dec 28, 2008 0:05:47 GMT 1, If I am totally exact don’t wont to” showing off a print “I buy it cause I like it! Yeah but if all you want is an image cause you "like it" then go to ebay and buy a reproduction canvas for £25, problem solved. But because you want something "official" and "signed" too, well then it sounds like it's material desire that is the problem, not the artist nor the flippers.
Agree with you to a point, but, I suspect most collectors, including most here (not speaking for anyone here - just what I suspect to be the case) want to know what they have is the genuine article, so buying a cheap copy from ebay is ok if you know thats all you want, but if I found out that one of my Banksy's was a fake, I would be gutted, and would probably not want it hanging on my wall - would fell like it was tarnished - so imo, image is not everything, knowing something is genuine, and signed by Banksy himself, does mean something. That said, the image is what we buy for - or else we wouldnt be collecting in the first place. Make any sense? I've had a few!
As always, peace
c
If I am totally exact don’t wont to” showing off a print “I buy it cause I like it! Yeah but if all you want is an image cause you "like it" then go to ebay and buy a reproduction canvas for £25, problem solved. But because you want something "official" and "signed" too, well then it sounds like it's material desire that is the problem, not the artist nor the flippers. Agree with you to a point, but, I suspect most collectors, including most here (not speaking for anyone here - just what I suspect to be the case) want to know what they have is the genuine article, so buying a cheap copy from ebay is ok if you know thats all you want, but if I found out that one of my Banksy's was a fake, I would be gutted, and would probably not want it hanging on my wall - would fell like it was tarnished - so imo, image is not everything, knowing something is genuine, and signed by Banksy himself, does mean something. That said, the image is what we buy for - or else we wouldnt be collecting in the first place. Make any sense? I've had a few! As always, peace c |
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Flipping Art • The Debate, by bradpitt on Dec 28, 2008 0:51:41 GMT 1, Makes sense to me coach  I like nice things and want them, but I don't need them. If that makes sense
Makes sense to me coach I like nice things and want them, but I don't need them. If that makes sense |
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Flipping Art • The Debate, by Coach on Dec 28, 2008 0:58:57 GMT 1, Thanks brad - feared it may have been one of my usual wine fueled splurges!
Thanks brad - feared it may have been one of my usual wine fueled splurges!
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Flipping Art • The Debate, by retardthebear on Dec 28, 2008 12:39:00 GMT 1, All limited edition prints would fall under the category 'collectables'. If no one wanted them for the fact they were special then not only would there be alot more 'fake' canvases/prints from the bay etc on peoples walls, but there would be alot more real Banksy prints on my wall
Not that i have fake ones on my wall, they aren't decadent enough for my greedy western desires.
So for people to say they buy just for the image is like saying men look at page 3 to see what what the model has to say in that silly speach bubble.
All limited edition prints would fall under the category 'collectables'. If no one wanted them for the fact they were special then not only would there be alot more 'fake' canvases/prints from the bay etc on peoples walls, but there would be alot more real Banksy prints on my wall Not that i have fake ones on my wall, they aren't decadent enough for my greedy western desires. So for people to say they buy just for the image is like saying men look at page 3 to see what what the model has to say in that silly speach bubble. |
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Flipping Art • The Debate, by slowmo on Dec 28, 2008 13:01:40 GMT 1, Interesting you should say that, because I do look at page three for that very speech bubble. It cracks me up.
Interesting you should say that, because I do look at page three for that very speech bubble. It cracks me up.
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linkd95
Junior Member
🗨️ 1,034
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July 2008
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Flipping Art • The Debate, by linkd95 on Dec 28, 2008 13:19:27 GMT 1, I think that you should do what is needed, if you need to make a bit of money and im not surprised 'cos its a recession, you should flip the print.
After all its the flippers who keep the market going, if people hadnt flipped banksy prints no one would know how much they are worth on the secondary market, same with Micalleff e.t.c
I think that you should do what is needed, if you need to make a bit of money and im not surprised 'cos its a recession, you should flip the print.
After all its the flippers who keep the market going, if people hadnt flipped banksy prints no one would know how much they are worth on the secondary market, same with Micalleff e.t.c
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Flipping Art • The Debate, by sixftjellybaby on Dec 28, 2008 13:28:24 GMT 1, I kind of get where you are coming from but if there where no material desires no artist would shift any prints (everybody wants a real print not a copy
I kind of get where you are coming from but if there where no material desires no artist would shift any prints (everybody wants a real print not a copy
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Flipping Art • The Debate, by retardthebear on Dec 29, 2008 8:33:38 GMT 1, i just look at the tats
edit: this is in response to slowmo, not just stating i like tats. but i do  haha
i just look at the tats edit: this is in response to slowmo, not just stating i like tats. but i do haha |
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Flipping Art • The Debate, by shakey1181 on Apr 20, 2011 20:01:46 GMT 1, I guess what I'm trying to ask, is how much time can elapse before it is considered ok to sell a piece?
there is a lot of discussion on here about the detrimental effect of flipping, but it does seem to still carry on without a great deal of comment or criticism.
what is the difference between selling an item the day of release for an increased value or waiting for six months+, just to do exactly the same thing? Does it become more acceptable to sell things if you've held on to them for a specified amount of time?
everyone seems to be quick to point fingers when it comes to flipping as soon as something comes out, but surely essentially the same thing just to keep it in the 'portfolio' with a doubtful intention to ever really keep it, only to sell for a profit.
there is always the argument (one which i personally disagree with) that buying pieces that you know will increase in value, allows the seller to buy something that they would previously be unable to afford.
flipping bothers me, but not a huge amount as the sort of pieces which go for 1k+ will always be out of my price range, plus i feel that even secondary market prices on here, from the majority of members are always fair and allows me to buy pieces that I wasn't able to at release.
still, just interested to hear other people's opinions, and to avoid too much aggro, I'd like to propose a lockdown on name calling and finger pointing in advance...
I guess what I'm trying to ask, is how much time can elapse before it is considered ok to sell a piece?
there is a lot of discussion on here about the detrimental effect of flipping, but it does seem to still carry on without a great deal of comment or criticism.
what is the difference between selling an item the day of release for an increased value or waiting for six months+, just to do exactly the same thing? Does it become more acceptable to sell things if you've held on to them for a specified amount of time?
everyone seems to be quick to point fingers when it comes to flipping as soon as something comes out, but surely essentially the same thing just to keep it in the 'portfolio' with a doubtful intention to ever really keep it, only to sell for a profit.
there is always the argument (one which i personally disagree with) that buying pieces that you know will increase in value, allows the seller to buy something that they would previously be unable to afford.
flipping bothers me, but not a huge amount as the sort of pieces which go for 1k+ will always be out of my price range, plus i feel that even secondary market prices on here, from the majority of members are always fair and allows me to buy pieces that I wasn't able to at release.
still, just interested to hear other people's opinions, and to avoid too much aggro, I'd like to propose a lockdown on name calling and finger pointing in advance...
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pcant
Junior Member
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July 2010
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Flipping Art • The Debate, by pcant on Apr 20, 2011 20:15:57 GMT 1, This is, as you noted, a tricky one. I think flipping, while moderately annoying, is part of the market. What I find frustrating is when people conspire to corner the market, buying multiples of a print even when the gallery is trying to keep it one to a customer (the tales of house cleaners lining up en masse to buy the new Banksy "picture" come to mind). If someone wants to line up all night, or F5 until their fingers bleed, then sell it for a profit, that's transparently greedy, but less annoying than someone who buys a bunch, keeping them from the "real customers," then jacks the price through the roof. Just my two cents worth.
This is, as you noted, a tricky one. I think flipping, while moderately annoying, is part of the market. What I find frustrating is when people conspire to corner the market, buying multiples of a print even when the gallery is trying to keep it one to a customer (the tales of house cleaners lining up en masse to buy the new Banksy "picture" come to mind). If someone wants to line up all night, or F5 until their fingers bleed, then sell it for a profit, that's transparently greedy, but less annoying than someone who buys a bunch, keeping them from the "real customers," then jacks the price through the roof. Just my two cents worth.
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redfred
Junior Member
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May 2006
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Flipping Art • The Debate, by redfred on Apr 20, 2011 20:42:04 GMT 1, Will always be arguaments about it, I think there will always be people who buy purely to sell on for an immediate profit who to me are flippers and those that buy a print from an internet image usually with only minutes to decide if they like it or not and when they actually get it find they do not like it so sell it on.
Will always be arguaments about it, I think there will always be people who buy purely to sell on for an immediate profit who to me are flippers and those that buy a print from an internet image usually with only minutes to decide if they like it or not and when they actually get it find they do not like it so sell it on.
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Flipping Art • The Debate, by Brushstrokes 75 on Apr 20, 2011 20:46:08 GMT 1, I've started to accept flipping & flippers. It's part of the game. If there wouldn't be any money involved there wouldn't be any flippers.
You also have to accept that Art & Money is not dissociable today (or for most people). When you start paying consistently at least £300 or £400 per print, you have to think that what you have is worth something (or would still be worth something someday). Unless you're multi millionaire & that kind of money doesn't represent anything for you. I don't say that it's all about the money because it's not but if you would really like an Image you could have it print it yourself or buy a poster not the real thing.
After, flippers thinks that whatever they buy there will be someone who is ready to overpay straight away (which doesn't always makes sense but whatever). I'm not sure in the end that even artists raise the release price it will still kill people from buying. As the idea behind flipping is that you can sell it higher straight away (ok if the prices are unrealistic nobody will buy). It will be interesting to see the elasticity of price for Banksy prints. Could be quite interesting?
I get the idea why people hate flippers. They think that it deprive them to acquire at a price they were ready to spend for something they wanted. The often don't want to pay the same item at premium straight away.
I think the difference between hold/sell & straight sell is the idea behind it. When you hold/sell, it still means that you liked what you buy & you think that it will sell for more at a later date (which basically means that you believe in the artist). When you flip, you doesn't care about who the artist is, the only thing that push you to buy is instant profit. The content of what you buy doesn't matter really matter to you.
It's a bit the same with basic investment theories. What's the difference between short term speculation & long term investment as both involves the idea of making money.
After I have another opinion about flipping. I guess that it's not beneficial for the artist. It just push people to short term speculation. Basically, you don't care what the artist will become. Your interest is only in the moment which by extent means that you don't have any respect for the artist. It really joins what short term speculation involves for a company. Creating a bubble never really helps.
I've started to accept flipping & flippers. It's part of the game. If there wouldn't be any money involved there wouldn't be any flippers.
You also have to accept that Art & Money is not dissociable today (or for most people). When you start paying consistently at least £300 or £400 per print, you have to think that what you have is worth something (or would still be worth something someday). Unless you're multi millionaire & that kind of money doesn't represent anything for you. I don't say that it's all about the money because it's not but if you would really like an Image you could have it print it yourself or buy a poster not the real thing.
After, flippers thinks that whatever they buy there will be someone who is ready to overpay straight away (which doesn't always makes sense but whatever). I'm not sure in the end that even artists raise the release price it will still kill people from buying. As the idea behind flipping is that you can sell it higher straight away (ok if the prices are unrealistic nobody will buy). It will be interesting to see the elasticity of price for Banksy prints. Could be quite interesting?
I get the idea why people hate flippers. They think that it deprive them to acquire at a price they were ready to spend for something they wanted. The often don't want to pay the same item at premium straight away.
I think the difference between hold/sell & straight sell is the idea behind it. When you hold/sell, it still means that you liked what you buy & you think that it will sell for more at a later date (which basically means that you believe in the artist). When you flip, you doesn't care about who the artist is, the only thing that push you to buy is instant profit. The content of what you buy doesn't matter really matter to you.
It's a bit the same with basic investment theories. What's the difference between short term speculation & long term investment as both involves the idea of making money.
After I have another opinion about flipping. I guess that it's not beneficial for the artist. It just push people to short term speculation. Basically, you don't care what the artist will become. Your interest is only in the moment which by extent means that you don't have any respect for the artist. It really joins what short term speculation involves for a company. Creating a bubble never really helps.
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mishco
New Member
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May 2006
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hlarmy
Junior Member
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November 2007
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Flipping Art • The Debate, by hlarmy on Apr 20, 2011 20:59:53 GMT 1, Flipping is buying with the sole intention of selling for profit straight away. I'm inclined to say that within a couple of months would be considered a short amount of time.
I would also say that, like others have said, its part of the scene, and that there are far worse things to worry about in life than flippers.
Flipping is buying with the sole intention of selling for profit straight away. I'm inclined to say that within a couple of months would be considered a short amount of time. I would also say that, like others have said, its part of the scene, and that there are far worse things to worry about in life than flippers. |
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Flipping Art • The Debate, by Coach on Apr 20, 2011 21:03:23 GMT 1, Flipping is buying with the sole intention of selling for profit straight away. I'm inclined to say that within a couple of months would be considered a short amount of time.
I agree with that.
It used to really annoy me.
It doesnt so much anymore. Cant be bothered getting upset about it - part of collecting sadly.
But I do think that it should not be welcomed on here - if people are going to do it - do it on ebay.
Imo, of course.
Flipping is buying with the sole intention of selling for profit straight away. I'm inclined to say that within a couple of months would be considered a short amount of time. I agree with that. It used to really annoy me. It doesnt so much anymore. Cant be bothered getting upset about it - part of collecting sadly. But I do think that it should not be welcomed on here - if people are going to do it - do it on ebay. Imo, of course. |
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Deleted
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January 1970
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Flipping Art • The Debate, by Deleted on Apr 20, 2011 21:05:56 GMT 1, tend to agree with you hlarmy, but I once bought a print (k-guy coke moss) that I though I'd liked enough to frame immediatly after arrival. But when I got it I saw (to be honest, within a minute) that it just wasnt what I expected; solely due to the difference in an image on my laptop screen and the real thing. I sold the piece pretty soon after I bought it and got the honour of receiving some very unfriendly PMs from people on here..
tend to agree with you hlarmy, but I once bought a print (k-guy coke moss) that I though I'd liked enough to frame immediatly after arrival. But when I got it I saw (to be honest, within a minute) that it just wasnt what I expected; solely due to the difference in an image on my laptop screen and the real thing. I sold the piece pretty soon after I bought it and got the honour of receiving some very unfriendly PMs from people on here..
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Flipping Art • The Debate, by manty on Apr 20, 2011 21:19:36 GMT 1, If i was in charge, i would burn them all
yes, that includes you ;D
It is what it is, same in any collectable hobby, from watches, cars, bikes, trainers, music etc etc etc.
Collectors and flippers does a market make.
Whether that market is a bubble is the interesting part.
take a lot of the artists that sell out immediately, is that because the collector likes the artist, the investment, or both. If the flipper (i prefer the term tout as i like Dolphins) gets involved in a market then the bubble begins............
ommmmm
anyhow I am rambling again
If i was in charge, i would burn them all
yes, that includes you ;D
It is what it is, same in any collectable hobby, from watches, cars, bikes, trainers, music etc etc etc.
Collectors and flippers does a market make.
Whether that market is a bubble is the interesting part.
take a lot of the artists that sell out immediately, is that because the collector likes the artist, the investment, or both. If the flipper (i prefer the term tout as i like Dolphins) gets involved in a market then the bubble begins............
ommmmm
anyhow I am rambling again
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Flipping Art • The Debate, by theleveller on Apr 20, 2011 21:33:39 GMT 1, Its a fact, Banksy wouldn't be where he's at without flipping!
Its a fact, Banksy wouldn't be where he's at without flipping!
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Deleted
🗨️ 0
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January 1970
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Flipping Art • The Debate, by Deleted on Apr 20, 2011 21:42:51 GMT 1, Its a fact, Banksy wouldn't be where he's at without flipping!
In what way is it a fact? Banksy was well established prior to around 2007 when people jumped on the bandwagon on the print market which is the bottom end in any event.....
POW / Banksy must feel embarrassed about people having a ruck in a queue otherwise the QJG would never have been born. Not all publicity is good?
Its a fact, Banksy wouldn't be where he's at without flipping! In what way is it a fact? Banksy was well established prior to around 2007 when people jumped on the bandwagon on the print market which is the bottom end in any event..... POW / Banksy must feel embarrassed about people having a ruck in a queue otherwise the QJG would never have been born. Not all publicity is good? |
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gibbin82
Junior Member
🗨️ 1,008
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April 2008
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Flipping Art • The Debate, by gibbin82 on Apr 20, 2011 21:44:33 GMT 1, Its a fact, Banksy wouldn't be where he's at without flipping!
Unfortunately quite true, that is too expensive and out of reach for many of those who really appreciate and want his work to hang on the wall and look at. However Banksy would still be admired and acknowledged for his work by those who do appreciate it just as much as it is now.
Maybe you are getting the value of his work mixed up with the financial side of things and not the contribution to the diversity of art?
Its a fact, Banksy wouldn't be where he's at without flipping! Unfortunately quite true, that is too expensive and out of reach for many of those who really appreciate and want his work to hang on the wall and look at. However Banksy would still be admired and acknowledged for his work by those who do appreciate it just as much as it is now. Maybe you are getting the value of his work mixed up with the financial side of things and not the contribution to the diversity of art? |
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Flipping Art • The Debate, by theleveller on Apr 20, 2011 21:51:15 GMT 1, Really... I know someone very closely that have receipts for close to a hundred he brought in 02/03 directly from POW or PYMCA as it was then and "flipped" them with their grace on ebay to mostly Japan.... nothing more than £100 to buy and made nice monies... start of something... by the way I brought all of mine from source back in 03. Banksy didn't start to be a commodity in 07.... ummm.
Really... I know someone very closely that have receipts for close to a hundred he brought in 02/03 directly from POW or PYMCA as it was then and "flipped" them with their grace on ebay to mostly Japan.... nothing more than £100 to buy and made nice monies... start of something... by the way I brought all of mine from source back in 03. Banksy didn't start to be a commodity in 07.... ummm.
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Flipping Art • The Debate, by Shoot Again on Apr 20, 2011 21:51:42 GMT 1, I couldn't have articulated my view more clearly than brushstrokes75 just did ;-)
I couldn't have articulated my view more clearly than brushstrokes75 just did ;-)
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lojack
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February 2011
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Flipping Art • The Debate, by lojack on Apr 20, 2011 22:00:14 GMT 1, This argument is always pointless because everyone has a different definition of what it is and whoever is selling/flipping probably doesn't care what you think of their selling technique.
Personally I see it like this. If you sell anything for more then what you paid you are a flipper (yup by my definition I'm a flipper). You can try to justify it in any number of ways to make yourself feel better but that's pretty much the way it is. You may say ya but I had such and such for a whole year... I see it as a risky long term investment that is going to pay off for you.
Not only that but people set their prices on markets based on what "flippers" have sold their prints for. By default does that not make you a flipper as well? Rather then just covering costs you're making a profit off something you once bought for a lower price
This argument is always pointless because everyone has a different definition of what it is and whoever is selling/flipping probably doesn't care what you think of their selling technique.
Personally I see it like this. If you sell anything for more then what you paid you are a flipper (yup by my definition I'm a flipper). You can try to justify it in any number of ways to make yourself feel better but that's pretty much the way it is. You may say ya but I had such and such for a whole year... I see it as a risky long term investment that is going to pay off for you.
Not only that but people set their prices on markets based on what "flippers" have sold their prints for. By default does that not make you a flipper as well? Rather then just covering costs you're making a profit off something you once bought for a lower price
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Flipping Art • The Debate, by theleveller on Apr 20, 2011 22:10:52 GMT 1, Who really cares! Its part of the scene has been from the start... what I find worse is what happened in the CYW release people getting aggressive because they felt they where ow'd a piece of paper. That I believe is wrong, if you lose out online or via lottery, then so be it. Getting physical is a different matter.... in the end who really cares, its a bit of paper.
Who really cares! Its part of the scene has been from the start... what I find worse is what happened in the CYW release people getting aggressive because they felt they where ow'd a piece of paper. That I believe is wrong, if you lose out online or via lottery, then so be it. Getting physical is a different matter.... in the end who really cares, its a bit of paper.
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gibbin82
Junior Member
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April 2008
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Flipping Art • The Debate, by gibbin82 on Apr 20, 2011 23:44:39 GMT 1, Who really cares! Its part of the scene has been from the start... what I find worse is what happened in the CYW release people getting aggressive because they felt they where ow'd a piece of paper. That I believe is wrong, if you lose out online or via lottery, then so be it. Getting physical is a different matter.... in the end who really cares, its a bit of paper.
"WHO REALLY CARES"!
I tell who cares those people who would really like a piece of art they should be able to afford, but then can't because parasites who don't give a damn about it put it out of their reach. Now just shut up, as I am sure I won't be the only one who finds this sort of stupid comment, even more annoying than the flippers themselves 
Who really cares! Its part of the scene has been from the start... what I find worse is what happened in the CYW release people getting aggressive because they felt they where ow'd a piece of paper. That I believe is wrong, if you lose out online or via lottery, then so be it. Getting physical is a different matter.... in the end who really cares, its a bit of paper. "WHO REALLY CARES"! I tell who cares those people who would really like a piece of art they should be able to afford, but then can't because parasites who don't give a damn about it put it out of their reach. Now just shut up, as I am sure I won't be the only one who finds this sort of stupid comment, even more annoying than the flippers themselves |
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maadbeats
Junior Member
🗨️ 2,272
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September 2007
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Flipping Art • The Debate, by maadbeats on Apr 21, 2011 2:53:51 GMT 1, basically when you buy something with your own money. you are allowed to do what ever the f$%@ you want to with it; whenever. Doesnt matter how pissed we are or how bummed another is about missing out. It sucks sometimes but what are you going to do. Now the term flipping is selling something that is highly in demand shortly after purchase. So who cares, its only art. Sure its frustrating at times but I have taken on a more zen approach to try and not get worked up anymore. If its something that great, i will find a way to obtain
basically when you buy something with your own money. you are allowed to do what ever the f$%@ you want to with it; whenever. Doesnt matter how pissed we are or how bummed another is about missing out. It sucks sometimes but what are you going to do. Now the term flipping is selling something that is highly in demand shortly after purchase. So who cares, its only art. Sure its frustrating at times but I have taken on a more zen approach to try and not get worked up anymore. If its something that great, i will find a way to obtain
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Flipping Art • The Debate, by Sauce Moola on Apr 21, 2011 4:27:58 GMT 1, Its not really worth complaining about. It actually helps collector get there hands on pieces. If every piece went into a collection we would all be aout
Its not really worth complaining about. It actually helps collector get there hands on pieces. If every piece went into a collection we would all be aout
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I like nice things and want them, but I don't need them. If that makes sense
haha
