Flipping Art • The Debate

[dld3t]

The only way to stop flipping is to sell at market price. Where there's a quick buck to be made there'll be someone to make it.

[morrissey1]

but once you start selling art at the inflated ebay "market price", you force everyone to pay ebay prices for everything, and then nothing will ever really be affordable, and nobody will ever get something at a reasonable cost. If it's all about the art and not about the money, then just do unlimited runs of the images....but the horses have already left the stable on this whole flipping art thing

[veralynn]

Auction - let the 'market' decide?

[morrissey1]

veralynn said:

Auction - let the 'market' decide?

do you mean you think POW should auction them off on their site?

[keepingitreal]

The solution is to boycott ebay.

That way the price will drop just like it did with the latest Micallef prints.

[Daniel Silk]

dld3t said:

The only way to stop flipping is to sell at market price. Where there's a quick buck to be made there'll be someone to make it.

I dont think it would make any difference
If POW sold them for £2,000 each it would just make it so they would sell for £4,000+ on ebay I cant see how they could stop it.

[manty]

The solution is to stop buying prints :-)

[morrissey1]

the solution is to be lucky, but then again, that's never really solved anything, has it?

[frank11]

admin said:

dld3t said:

The only way to stop flipping is to sell at market price. Where there's a quick buck to be made there'll be someone to make it.

I dont think it would make any difference
If POW sold them for £2,000 each it would just make it so they would sell for £4,000+ on ebay I cant see how they could stop it.

Agreed Silky, i think POW have been fantastic, and i am saying that after like you missing out !!
However i think would have to do something about all the people that are just buying for a quick profit.
if we dont buy the prints when they appear on ebay, the people that have maxed CC's and do not give a shit about the art will soon be happy to get there money back ;D ;D

[Daniel Silk]

Yeah, I think POW have done a very good job today ;D ok, I dint get any but the prices were reasonable, and I think most people had a chance ;D It was just down to luck at the end of the day.

[dld3t]

morrissey1 said:

the solution is to be lucky, but then again, that's never really solved anything, has it?

That's exactly it. I'd rather they sell artificially low and at least give me a chance to be lucky. I'm bummed that I missed out but I'd be ecstatic if I'd gotten one. So it goes.

And I don't think POW could just sell for anything. At a certain price, people wouldn't buy. They couldn't sell unlimited runs, or runs of 5000+ Banksy prints, for 30k a piece. Somewhere between that and what they sell for, there's an actual market price. I'm personally glad they just create a bunfight instead of trying to find it.

[ABC]

I thought POW held up well, I got so frustrated when the first one came up but it was a Protox problem and out of POWs hands.

[tomjedimaster]

morrissey1 said:

the solution is to be lucky, but then again, that's never really solved anything, has it?

yes, to be lucky and not to get too upset if you miss out. the POW system is a lottery and not all of us can win. at the end of the day, it's just a piece of paper that we all want at this moment in time.

btw, i've been pressing F5 for this entire month and missed out. oh well, now i have some extra money for a hush canvas.

[alvington89]

THEIR, THEIR, THEIR!!!!

Not there FFS!

[tomjedimaster]

dld3t said:

morrissey1 said:

the solution is to be lucky, but then again, that's never really solved anything, has it?

They couldn't sell unlimited runs, or runs of 5000+ Banksy prints, for 30k a piece.

imagine if he had to sign all those prints...he wouldn't be able to go for a tommy tank anymore

[buster]

admin said:

Yeah, I think POW have done a very good job today ;D ok, I dint get any but the prices were reasonable, and I think most people had a chance ;D It was just down to luck at the end of the day.

All good points, it was quick as we knew it would be, but the site held up beyond all expectations, they were let down, but not catastrphically as in the morons and grannies release, by Protx, and those problems are sortable. All in it was a good release with a nice increse in print numbers. top work POW

[Simococo]

just spent the last 3 hours in A&E with my 9 month old daughter, it really puts all this into perpective

[veralynn]

In response, I do think that there is case for auction as that's the purest way of letting the 'market forces' work, and I don't agree that they would 'all' necessarily sell for £2K and be on the bay for £4K the next day as a price tag of £2K would put people off big time, and have to agree with simococo - is it really that important - no.

[morrissey1]

its imporant to some of us...in fact it's so important they've made a whole forum for it...but in the grand shceme of things, of course the health and care of loved ones is most important..., and on days when Im lucky enough to not have to worry about the health and care of loved ones, this becomes quite important

[stuey09]

simococo said:

just spent the last 3 hours in A&E with my 9 month old daughter, it really puts all this into perpective

It certainly does mate. Hope your daughter is good, you can't put a price on a nippers health.

[scavos]

stuey09 said:

simococo said:

just spent the last 3 hours in A&E with my 9 month old daughter, it really puts all this into perpective

It certainly does mate. Hope your daughter is good, you can't put a price on a nippers health.

Yeah, best wishes simococo. Hope the little one's ok.

[pramface]

I thank god for these 'flippers'.. I was in meetings all day, without the option of sitting at a pc for three hours! I will do as I did with the micallef, give a flipper some spending money and buy the image at leisure!

[Simococo]

scavos said:

stuey09 said:

It certainly does mate. Hope your daughter is good, you can't put a price on a nippers health.

Yeah, best wishes simococo. Hope the little one's ok.

She's tucked up in bed now. All good.

[pramface]

keep those negs coming baby..! sorry I have spare cash to blow on the print, this upsets a few people it seems? nevermind!!

[Mobu]

Everyone is entitled to do what they want. If they are lucky enough to get one, so be it.

It looks like the artists are flooding the market anyways to lower prices for those of you shedding a couple of tears over flippers.

To be honest, I find that everyone is in it for the investment. If you say you only like the print and thats it, that is absolute BS. Honestly, money makes the world go around... some people keep prints they like for 2 years, then decide they want to hang something different, so they evaluta that piece they bought 2 years ago and "well what do ya know", it has increased 5 fold in price...

then why not sell the piece for it original value back 2 years ago eh!!! I would consider that flipping also, just not immediately...

Come on, these sorts of threads are getting tiring... its like having thread about "why does war exist".

[f5ers]

Would have thought some people might be selling their copy of trolleys now while the prices are supposedly at their peak then just buy one back in 6 weeks when the prices drop..

[romanywg]

If we didn't have flippers and baggers then we would never know the 'market value' of our prints.

[Dead Elvis]

admin said:

Yeah, I think POW have done a very good job today ;D ok, I dint get any but the prices were reasonable, and I think most people had a chance ;D It was just down to luck at the end of the day.

Same goes here...couldn't agree with you more though...to top it off, the new POW server was really pushed today...glad to see it take the onslaught of a Banksy release so wonderfully...

[topper007]

As a new member I'm hesitant to bring up what I know for many is an emotive topic (maybe even an old chestnut).

It would be interesting as a newbie to hear some rational views on flipping and its effects for artists.

The effects on those of us who collect are blatantly obvious.

Now, there is a strong argument that the merit of art should be divorced entirely from cash values and its worth to its owner should be in the aesthetics rather than monetary value.

On the other hand, in the real world artists need to make a living just like everyone else and art changes hands for money like any other luxury commodity. Otherwise there would be no retail galleries and all art would be truly on the streets or donated to public galleries for all to see.

So far so obvious.

This (as I see it) is where the flipping comes in and seems inevitable. Although the artists do not benefit directly from flipping (and many disapprove of it as their official position), in most cases it increases prices and generates higher demand for their future works. So as indirect benefit should flow through to the artist - a point on which the artists will I'm sure have a view.

You could say that, to reduce or remove incentives for flipping, artists and their galleries/agents should just charge more for initial releases. However, that would simply put a lot of releases out of the reach of the average budget. Also, as it's nearly impossible to estimate the future market value of a piece, I'm not sure this would stop flipping anyway so long as there was still a profit to be turned.

As an aside, is there any difference between flipping and selling through a posh auction house for a profit? Is that just a matter of the passage of time from purchase and perceptions/prejudices about the choice of sale venue?

I have no vested interest in this topic. I'm just a newish collector (which the more jaded can believe or not as they wish), new to the forum and interested in the competing views.

[Pistol]

I don't mean to be rude but.......zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz