earthlinga2
Member
Posts: 1,023
Member Since: November 2019
|
Tate Ward selling fakes!, by earthlinga2 on Dec 21, 2020 13:28:28 GMT 1, If I have been sold a fake by Nick privately a couple years ago - and I haven’t been contacted by him (without reaching out myself) surely there are MANY others in a similar situation to me. It simply isn’t right. It isn’t good enough.
If I have been sold a fake by Nick privately a couple years ago - and I haven’t been contacted by him (without reaching out myself) surely there are MANY others in a similar situation to me. It simply isn’t right. It isn’t good enough. If you have been sold a fake then it is your responsibility to contact the auction house, not the other way round. |
|
eviljguano
Member
Posts: 43
Member Since: September 2020
|
Tate Ward selling fakes!, by eviljguano on Dec 21, 2020 13:44:48 GMT 1, I think some people on here have the wrong idea of what auction houses do. They do *not* authenticate artworks. I don't know of a single auction house that does. If you read the small print, every auction house (and I mean *every* auction house) clearly states that it is the responsibility of any prospective buyer to assess the condition and authenticity of any lot number they are interested in. It is not the auction house's job to do that for you. If you think it may be fake, then don't bid. And if you are spending thousands without doing your homework first, and don't know what a fake looks like, then more fool you.
I think some people on here have the wrong idea of what auction houses do. They do *not* authenticate artworks. I don't know of a single auction house that does. If you read the small print, every auction house (and I mean *every* auction house) clearly states that it is the responsibility of any prospective buyer to assess the condition and authenticity of any lot number they are interested in. It is not the auction house's job to do that for you. If you think it may be fake, then don't bid. And if you are spending thousands without doing your homework first, and don't know what a fake looks like, then more fool you. As a point of interest, I was going through the process of selling a B through one of the Bond Street Houses and as part of the sale process they get Pest Control in to check the work and provide a new COA and destroy the original one (which they insist upon). Not exactly authentication but as near as damn it. |
|
JFCC
Member
Posts: 144
Member Since: May 2020
|
Tate Ward selling fakes!, by JFCC on Dec 21, 2020 14:22:22 GMT 1, If I have been sold a fake by Nick privately a couple years ago - and I haven’t been contacted by him (without reaching out myself) surely there are MANY others in a similar situation to me. It simply isn’t right. It isn’t good enough. If you have been sold a fake then it is your responsibility to contact the auction house, not the other way round.
It is the responsibility of the party who becomes aware of the misrepresentation to make the other party aware of it. A misrepresentation is when an untrue statement of fact or law is made by Party A (or its agent) to Party B, which induces Party B to enter a contract with Party A thereby causing Party B loss.
In the auction house alleged position it is therefore their responsibility to act and to contact all of those they have sold or, importantly, may believe they have sold, fake items too. Their actions they take may also influence or mitigate the position they are in if it came to a court of law.
That the Court will firstly decide what type of misrepresentation they have made:
1) Fraudulent misrepresentation – where a false representation has been made knowingly, or without belief in its truth, or recklessly as to its truth.
Remedy – rescission and damages
2) Negligent misrepresentation – a representation made carelessly and in breach of duty owed by Party A to Party B to take reasonable care that the representation is accurate.
Remedy – rescission and damages
3) Innocent misrepresentation – a representation that is neither fraudulent nor negligent.
Remedy – rescission or damages
Put simply, rescission means that the parties are restored, so far as possible, to the position that they were in before the contract was entered into. The terms and conditions of the auction contract is at this point irrelevant.
Damages are monetary compensation for loss; the aim of a damages award will be to put the party in the position it would have been in had it not entered into the contract. In other words, the damages will be the amount by which the party is out of pocket as a result of relying on the misrepresentation.
So the actions of the Auction house will help mitigate what damages should be paid and equally could have a bearing on whether the matter is treated as the criminal offence of Fraud in any Police investigation.
If I have been sold a fake by Nick privately a couple years ago - and I haven’t been contacted by him (without reaching out myself) surely there are MANY others in a similar situation to me. It simply isn’t right. It isn’t good enough. If you have been sold a fake then it is your responsibility to contact the auction house, not the other way round. I am not sure why you are so keen on quoting such inaccuracies, so to help you I will clarify the position. It is the responsibility of the party who becomes aware of the misrepresentation to make the other party aware of it. A misrepresentation is when an untrue statement of fact or law is made by Party A (or its agent) to Party B, which induces Party B to enter a contract with Party A thereby causing Party B loss. In the auction house alleged position it is therefore their responsibility to act and to contact all of those they have sold or, importantly, may believe they have sold, fake items too. Their actions they take may also influence or mitigate the position they are in if it came to a court of law. That the Court will firstly decide what type of misrepresentation they have made: 1) Fraudulent misrepresentation – where a false representation has been made knowingly, or without belief in its truth, or recklessly as to its truth. Remedy – rescission and damages 2) Negligent misrepresentation – a representation made carelessly and in breach of duty owed by Party A to Party B to take reasonable care that the representation is accurate. Remedy – rescission and damages 3) Innocent misrepresentation – a representation that is neither fraudulent nor negligent. Remedy – rescission or damages Put simply, rescission means that the parties are restored, so far as possible, to the position that they were in before the contract was entered into. The terms and conditions of the auction contract is at this point irrelevant. Damages are monetary compensation for loss; the aim of a damages award will be to put the party in the position it would have been in had it not entered into the contract. In other words, the damages will be the amount by which the party is out of pocket as a result of relying on the misrepresentation. So the actions of the Auction house will help mitigate what damages should be paid and equally could have a bearing on whether the matter is treated as the criminal offence of Fraud in any Police investigation. |
|
overend
Member
Posts: 581 
Member Since: October 2013
|
Tate Ward selling fakes!, by overend on Dec 21, 2020 14:32:18 GMT 1, If I have been sold a fake by Nick privately a couple years ago - and I haven’t been contacted by him (without reaching out myself) surely there are MANY others in a similar situation to me. It simply isn’t right. It isn’t good enough. If you have been sold a fake then it is your responsibility to contact the auction house, not the other way round.
I think there might be a clue in the word ‘privately’
If I have been sold a fake by Nick privately a couple years ago - and I haven’t been contacted by him (without reaching out myself) surely there are MANY others in a similar situation to me. It simply isn’t right. It isn’t good enough. If you have been sold a fake then it is your responsibility to contact the auction house, not the other way round. I think there might be a clue in the word ‘privately’ |
|
jamieb
Member
Keep The Change, Ya Filthy Animal
Posts: 660
Member Since: December 2007
|
Tate Ward selling fakes!, by jamieb on Dec 21, 2020 14:45:45 GMT 1, A points to observe on those comments: 1. I and most people, will totally agree that fake or multiple accounts ruins the credibility of any Forum debate and should not be allowed but that is for people who make the rules to enforce/monitor. It is certainly deceitful. 2. I am not convinced that Tate Ward are addressing the fake problem? There has been very little comment from them and it would be good to hear how many refunds they have made. Further they have made no comment on the allegations about Warhol prints nor the practices of their employee who it is claimed has been selling fakes himself.
3. As a minimum it would have been fair to see a public statement about changes in their working practices to ensure this is not repeated, without it brings in to question a whole part of their business model as they cannot be trusted from a buyers perspective. I would not buy from them until this has been made clear. 4. Again clarification should be made publicly about their intention towards, we can only assume, the multiple consignors who have been putting the fake items in to their auctions. Are they going to ban them and report them to the Police? 5. Let's not forget multiple criminal offences have been committed. Selling fake posters is against the law and TW have done so repeatedly apparently at their own admission, which suggests that they either are not competent in identifying them or have done so knowingly and turned a blind eye. At the end of the day individuals have been defrauded, even those who got their "costs" back, so it is definitely worthy for a debate in its own right as it has gone beyond fake Petrol Bomb posters.
Just to clarify on point 2. it's not so much "an employee" but the co-owner
See article below
A points to observe on those comments: 1. I and most people, will totally agree that fake or multiple accounts ruins the credibility of any Forum debate and should not be allowed but that is for people who make the rules to enforce/monitor. It is certainly deceitful. 2. I am not convinced that Tate Ward are addressing the fake problem? There has been very little comment from them and it would be good to hear how many refunds they have made. Further they have made no comment on the allegations about Warhol prints nor the practices of their employee who it is claimed has been selling fakes himself.
3. As a minimum it would have been fair to see a public statement about changes in their working practices to ensure this is not repeated, without it brings in to question a whole part of their business model as they cannot be trusted from a buyers perspective. I would not buy from them until this has been made clear. 4. Again clarification should be made publicly about their intention towards, we can only assume, the multiple consignors who have been putting the fake items in to their auctions. Are they going to ban them and report them to the Police? 5. Let's not forget multiple criminal offences have been committed. Selling fake posters is against the law and TW have done so repeatedly apparently at their own admission, which suggests that they either are not competent in identifying them or have done so knowingly and turned a blind eye. At the end of the day individuals have been defrauded, even those who got their "costs" back, so it is definitely worthy for a debate in its own right as it has gone beyond fake Petrol Bomb posters. Just to clarify on point 2. it's not so much "an employee" but the co-owner See article below |
|
earthlinga2
Member
Posts: 1,023
Member Since: November 2019
|
Tate Ward selling fakes!, by earthlinga2 on Dec 21, 2020 15:30:37 GMT 1, If you have been sold a fake then it is your responsibility to contact the auction house, not the other way round. I am not sure why you are so keen on quoting such inaccuracies, so to help you I will clarify the position. It is the responsibility of the party who becomes aware of the misrepresentation to make the other party aware of it. A misrepresentation is when an untrue statement of fact or law is made by Party A (or its agent) to Party B, which induces Party B to enter a contract with Party A thereby causing Party B loss. In the auction house alleged position it is therefore their responsibility to act and to contact all of those they have sold or, importantly, may believe they have sold, fake items too. Their actions they take may also influence or mitigate the position they are in if it came to a court of law. That the Court will firstly decide what type of misrepresentation they have made: 1) Fraudulent misrepresentation – where a false representation has been made knowingly, or without belief in its truth, or recklessly as to its truth. Remedy – rescission and damages 2) Negligent misrepresentation – a representation made carelessly and in breach of duty owed by Party A to Party B to take reasonable care that the representation is accurate. Remedy – rescission and damages 3) Innocent misrepresentation – a representation that is neither fraudulent nor negligent. Remedy – rescission or damages Put simply, rescission means that the parties are restored, so far as possible, to the position that they were in before the contract was entered into. The terms and conditions of the auction contract is at this point irrelevant. Damages are monetary compensation for loss; the aim of a damages award will be to put the party in the position it would have been in had it not entered into the contract. In other words, the damages will be the amount by which the party is out of pocket as a result of relying on the misrepresentation. So the actions of the Auction house will help mitigate what damages should be paid and equally could have a bearing on whether the matter is treated as the criminal offence of Fraud in any Police investigation.
If you have been sold a fake then it is your responsibility to contact the auction house, not the other way round. I am not sure why you are so keen on quoting such inaccuracies, so to help you I will clarify the position. It is the responsibility of the party who becomes aware of the misrepresentation to make the other party aware of it. A misrepresentation is when an untrue statement of fact or law is made by Party A (or its agent) to Party B, which induces Party B to enter a contract with Party A thereby causing Party B loss. In the auction house alleged position it is therefore their responsibility to act and to contact all of those they have sold or, importantly, may believe they have sold, fake items too. Their actions they take may also influence or mitigate the position they are in if it came to a court of law. That the Court will firstly decide what type of misrepresentation they have made: 1) Fraudulent misrepresentation – where a false representation has been made knowingly, or without belief in its truth, or recklessly as to its truth. Remedy – rescission and damages 2) Negligent misrepresentation – a representation made carelessly and in breach of duty owed by Party A to Party B to take reasonable care that the representation is accurate. Remedy – rescission and damages 3) Innocent misrepresentation – a representation that is neither fraudulent nor negligent. Remedy – rescission or damages Put simply, rescission means that the parties are restored, so far as possible, to the position that they were in before the contract was entered into. The terms and conditions of the auction contract is at this point irrelevant. Damages are monetary compensation for loss; the aim of a damages award will be to put the party in the position it would have been in had it not entered into the contract. In other words, the damages will be the amount by which the party is out of pocket as a result of relying on the misrepresentation. So the actions of the Auction house will help mitigate what damages should be paid and equally could have a bearing on whether the matter is treated as the criminal offence of Fraud in any Police investigation. You are talking about what would happen in a court of law. But that doesn't change the fact that if you have been sold a fake then you have to notify the auction house. You don't sit at home seething and tapping your fingers on the desk waiting to receive an e-mail about it. That's just plain daft. For a start, the auction house might sometimes not even know they have sold you a fake. Why can't people use a bit of common sense in these situations. |
|
gimmeabreak
Member
Posts: 380
Member Since: October 2020
|
Tate Ward selling fakes!, by gimmeabreak on Dec 21, 2020 15:35:54 GMT 1, I am not sure why you are so keen on quoting such inaccuracies, so to help you I will clarify the position. It is the responsibility of the party who becomes aware of the misrepresentation to make the other party aware of it. A misrepresentation is when an untrue statement of fact or law is made by Party A (or its agent) to Party B, which induces Party B to enter a contract with Party A thereby causing Party B loss. In the auction house alleged position it is therefore their responsibility to act and to contact all of those they have sold or, importantly, may believe they have sold, fake items too. Their actions they take may also influence or mitigate the position they are in if it came to a court of law. That the Court will firstly decide what type of misrepresentation they have made: 1) Fraudulent misrepresentation – where a false representation has been made knowingly, or without belief in its truth, or recklessly as to its truth. Remedy – rescission and damages 2) Negligent misrepresentation – a representation made carelessly and in breach of duty owed by Party A to Party B to take reasonable care that the representation is accurate. Remedy – rescission and damages 3) Innocent misrepresentation – a representation that is neither fraudulent nor negligent. Remedy – rescission or damages Put simply, rescission means that the parties are restored, so far as possible, to the position that they were in before the contract was entered into. The terms and conditions of the auction contract is at this point irrelevant. Damages are monetary compensation for loss; the aim of a damages award will be to put the party in the position it would have been in had it not entered into the contract. In other words, the damages will be the amount by which the party is out of pocket as a result of relying on the misrepresentation. So the actions of the Auction house will help mitigate what damages should be paid and equally could have a bearing on whether the matter is treated as the criminal offence of Fraud in any Police investigation. You are talking about what would happen in a court of law. But that doesn't change the fact that if you have been sold a fake then you have to notify the auction house. You don't sit at home seething and tapping your fingers on the desk waiting to receive an e-mail about it. That's just plain daft. For a start, the auction house might sometimes not even know they have sold you a fake. Why can't people use a bit of common sense in these situations.
Your statement was "If you have been sold a fake then it is your responsibility to contact the auction house, not the other way round." You were incorrect, and a forum member corrected you. Common sense says to concede and thank the forum member for the correction.
I am not sure why you are so keen on quoting such inaccuracies, so to help you I will clarify the position. It is the responsibility of the party who becomes aware of the misrepresentation to make the other party aware of it. A misrepresentation is when an untrue statement of fact or law is made by Party A (or its agent) to Party B, which induces Party B to enter a contract with Party A thereby causing Party B loss. In the auction house alleged position it is therefore their responsibility to act and to contact all of those they have sold or, importantly, may believe they have sold, fake items too. Their actions they take may also influence or mitigate the position they are in if it came to a court of law. That the Court will firstly decide what type of misrepresentation they have made: 1) Fraudulent misrepresentation – where a false representation has been made knowingly, or without belief in its truth, or recklessly as to its truth. Remedy – rescission and damages 2) Negligent misrepresentation – a representation made carelessly and in breach of duty owed by Party A to Party B to take reasonable care that the representation is accurate. Remedy – rescission and damages 3) Innocent misrepresentation – a representation that is neither fraudulent nor negligent. Remedy – rescission or damages Put simply, rescission means that the parties are restored, so far as possible, to the position that they were in before the contract was entered into. The terms and conditions of the auction contract is at this point irrelevant. Damages are monetary compensation for loss; the aim of a damages award will be to put the party in the position it would have been in had it not entered into the contract. In other words, the damages will be the amount by which the party is out of pocket as a result of relying on the misrepresentation. So the actions of the Auction house will help mitigate what damages should be paid and equally could have a bearing on whether the matter is treated as the criminal offence of Fraud in any Police investigation. You are talking about what would happen in a court of law. But that doesn't change the fact that if you have been sold a fake then you have to notify the auction house. You don't sit at home seething and tapping your fingers on the desk waiting to receive an e-mail about it. That's just plain daft. For a start, the auction house might sometimes not even know they have sold you a fake. Why can't people use a bit of common sense in these situations. Shifts the goal posts, and then makes an appeal to common sense. Classic. Your statement was "If you have been sold a fake then it is your responsibility to contact the auction house, not the other way round." You were incorrect, and a forum member corrected you. Common sense says to concede and thank the forum member for the correction. |
|
earthlinga2
Member
Posts: 1,023
Member Since: November 2019
|
Tate Ward selling fakes!, by earthlinga2 on Dec 21, 2020 15:38:58 GMT 1, You are talking about what would happen in a court of law. But that doesn't change the fact that if you have been sold a fake then you have to notify the auction house. You don't sit at home seething and tapping your fingers on the desk waiting to receive an e-mail about it. That's just plain daft. For a start, the auction house might sometimes not even know they have sold you a fake. Why can't people use a bit of common sense in these situations. Shifts the goal posts, and then makes an appeal to common sense. Classic. Your statement was "If you have been sold a fake then it is your responsibility to contact the auction house, not the other way round." You were incorrect, and a forum member corrected you. Common sense says to concede and thank the forum member for the correction.
You are talking about what would happen in a court of law. But that doesn't change the fact that if you have been sold a fake then you have to notify the auction house. You don't sit at home seething and tapping your fingers on the desk waiting to receive an e-mail about it. That's just plain daft. For a start, the auction house might sometimes not even know they have sold you a fake. Why can't people use a bit of common sense in these situations. Shifts the goal posts, and then makes an appeal to common sense. Classic. Your statement was "If you have been sold a fake then it is your responsibility to contact the auction house, not the other way round." You were incorrect, and a forum member corrected you. Common sense says to concede and thank the forum member for the correction. No goal posts have been shifted. If you have been sold a fake then contact the auction house. It's not rocket science. |
|
gimmeabreak
Member
Posts: 380
Member Since: October 2020
|
Tate Ward selling fakes!, by gimmeabreak on Dec 21, 2020 15:44:21 GMT 1, Shifts the goal posts, and then makes an appeal to common sense. Classic. Your statement was "If you have been sold a fake then it is your responsibility to contact the auction house, not the other way round." You were incorrect, and a forum member corrected you. Common sense says to concede and thank the forum member for the correction. No goal posts have been shifted. If you have been sold a fake then contact the auction house. It's not rocket science.
Shifts the goal posts, and then makes an appeal to common sense. Classic. Your statement was "If you have been sold a fake then it is your responsibility to contact the auction house, not the other way round." You were incorrect, and a forum member corrected you. Common sense says to concede and thank the forum member for the correction. No goal posts have been shifted. If you have been sold a fake then contact the auction house. It's not rocket science. As the other forum member pointed out, the situation depends on which party discovers that the work is a fake first. If the auction house discovers before the buyer, then the auction house has the responsibility to contact the buyer. It's not rocket science. |
|
whatilike
Member
Posts: 1,064
Member Since: March 2018
|
Tate Ward selling fakes!, by whatilike on Dec 21, 2020 16:08:05 GMT 1, If I have been sold a fake by Nick privately a couple years ago - and I haven’t been contacted by him (without reaching out myself) surely there are MANY others in a similar situation to me. It simply isn’t right. It isn’t good enough.
If I have been sold a fake by Nick privately a couple years ago - and I haven’t been contacted by him (without reaching out myself) surely there are MANY others in a similar situation to me. It simply isn’t right. It isn’t good enough. You've posted quite a few times about the fact you haven't been contacted. Why have you not contacted him? Seems like that would get things moving a bit quicker. |
|
earthlinga2
Member
Posts: 1,023
Member Since: November 2019
|
Tate Ward selling fakes!, by earthlinga2 on Dec 21, 2020 18:33:43 GMT 1, No goal posts have been shifted. If you have been sold a fake then contact the auction house. It's not rocket science. As the other forum member pointed out, the situation depends on which party discovers that the work is a fake first. If the auction house discovers before the buyer, then the auction house has the responsibility to contact the buyer. It's not rocket science.
No goal posts have been shifted. If you have been sold a fake then contact the auction house. It's not rocket science. As the other forum member pointed out, the situation depends on which party discovers that the work is a fake first. If the auction house discovers before the buyer, then the auction house has the responsibility to contact the buyer. It's not rocket science. And, likewise, if you are unhappy with an auction house (for any reason) you contact them. Don't sit at home getting angry that they are not contacting you; you contact them. Like I said, it's not rocket science. |
|
rbk
Member
Posts: 196
Member Since: March 2015
|
Tate Ward selling fakes!, by rbk on Dec 21, 2020 19:10:40 GMT 1, If I have been sold a fake by Nick privately a couple years ago - and I haven’t been contacted by him (without reaching out myself) surely there are MANY others in a similar situation to me. It simply isn’t right. It isn’t good enough. If you have been sold a fake then it is your responsibility to contact the auction house, not the other way round.
Actually that’s not true. Yes if you know you have a fake obviously contact them.
However an auction house knowingly or not who has been involved in an issue where a large number of fake pieces of the same type has been sold. Has a duty morally or legally to contact all the buyers about the fact that their piece maybe fake and how to check it.
This seems a simple and reasonable function for TW or any other house.
I
So for me TW should have done this
If I have been sold a fake by Nick privately a couple years ago - and I haven’t been contacted by him (without reaching out myself) surely there are MANY others in a similar situation to me. It simply isn’t right. It isn’t good enough. If you have been sold a fake then it is your responsibility to contact the auction house, not the other way round. Actually that’s not true. Yes if you know you have a fake obviously contact them. However an auction house knowingly or not who has been involved in an issue where a large number of fake pieces of the same type has been sold. Has a duty morally or legally to contact all the buyers about the fact that their piece maybe fake and how to check it. This seems a simple and reasonable function for TW or any other house. I So for me TW should have done this |
|
orenic
Member
Posts: 32
Member Since: December 2020
|
Tate Ward selling fakes!, by orenic on Dec 22, 2020 10:12:12 GMT 1, Just so all are aware this has not been forgotten. As I stated before once I have the facts they will be reported. We have not had responses from all buyers yet so that is my priority. Will you be reporting back on the fake Warhol’s you’ve been selling in all your auctions as well?
Daniel, do you not want to answer any questions about the fake Warhol’s ? I can assure you this is not going to go away.
Just so all are aware this has not been forgotten. As I stated before once I have the facts they will be reported. We have not had responses from all buyers yet so that is my priority. Will you be reporting back on the fake Warhol’s you’ve been selling in all your auctions as well? Daniel, do you not want to answer any questions about the fake Warhol’s ? I can assure you this is not going to go away. |
|
jamieb
Member
Keep The Change, Ya Filthy Animal
Posts: 660
Member Since: December 2007
|
Tate Ward selling fakes!, by jamieb on Dec 22, 2020 11:08:01 GMT 1, As the other forum member pointed out, the situation depends on which party discovers that the work is a fake first. If the auction house discovers before the buyer, then the auction house has the responsibility to contact the buyer. It's not rocket science. And, likewise, if you are unhappy with an auction house (for any reason) you contact them. Don't sit at home getting angry that they are not contacting you; you contact them. Like I said, it's not rocket science.
So if Tateward or Nick has sold you a fake and you are not on this forum or see the relevant thread how are you supposed to contact the sellers??
Tateward and Nick sold the fakes, they have been informed and now know they have (if they were ever unaware). It is their responsibility to contact all the buyers they sold fakes to rather than keep quiet and see how many they can get away with not refunding.
As the other forum member pointed out, the situation depends on which party discovers that the work is a fake first. If the auction house discovers before the buyer, then the auction house has the responsibility to contact the buyer. It's not rocket science. And, likewise, if you are unhappy with an auction house (for any reason) you contact them. Don't sit at home getting angry that they are not contacting you; you contact them. Like I said, it's not rocket science. So if Tateward or Nick has sold you a fake and you are not on this forum or see the relevant thread how are you supposed to contact the sellers?? Tateward and Nick sold the fakes, they have been informed and now know they have (if they were ever unaware). It is their responsibility to contact all the buyers they sold fakes to rather than keep quiet and see how many they can get away with not refunding. |
|
|
|
Tate Ward selling fakes!, by charliec2701 on Dec 22, 2020 12:17:14 GMT 1, Give it up earthlinga2 you’ve been Trumped ..... although thank you for making everyone aware there’s joint responsibility for both parties to highlight a problem.
Give it up earthlinga2 you’ve been Trumped ..... although thank you for making everyone aware there’s joint responsibility for both parties to highlight a problem.
|
|
earthlinga2
Member
Posts: 1,023
Member Since: November 2019
|
Tate Ward selling fakes!, by earthlinga2 on Dec 22, 2020 12:29:22 GMT 1, And, likewise, if you are unhappy with an auction house (for any reason) you contact them. Don't sit at home getting angry that they are not contacting you; you contact them. Like I said, it's not rocket science. So if Tateward or Nick has sold you a fake and you are not on this forum or see the relevant thread how are you supposed to contact the sellers?? ....
If someone can't work out how to contact an auction house without coming on here first, then there is something seriously wrong with them.
And, likewise, if you are unhappy with an auction house (for any reason) you contact them. Don't sit at home getting angry that they are not contacting you; you contact them. Like I said, it's not rocket science. So if Tateward or Nick has sold you a fake and you are not on this forum or see the relevant thread how are you supposed to contact the sellers?? .... Are you serious? If someone can't work out how to contact an auction house without coming on here first, then there is something seriously wrong with them. |
|
jamieb
Member
Keep The Change, Ya Filthy Animal
Posts: 660
Member Since: December 2007
|
Tate Ward selling fakes!, by jamieb on Dec 22, 2020 12:46:46 GMT 1, So if Tateward or Nick has sold you a fake and you are not on this forum or see the relevant thread how are you supposed to contact the sellers?? .... Are you serious? If someone can't work out how to contact an auction house without coming on here first, then there is something seriously wrong with them.
But I'll explain again for you.
If you buy something in good faith from an auction house, frame it and have it hanging on your wall with no knowledge that you have been sold a fake why would you contact them?
If Tateward sold a fake to a buyer in the auction and that buyer suspects nothing, then unless Tate contact them they will never know that £4000 poster is in fact worthless.
So if Tateward or Nick has sold you a fake and you are not on this forum or see the relevant thread how are you supposed to contact the sellers?? .... Are you serious? If someone can't work out how to contact an auction house without coming on here first, then there is something seriously wrong with them. I'm sure you're not really that stupid and you're just sea-lioning. But I'll explain again for you. If you buy something in good faith from an auction house, frame it and have it hanging on your wall with no knowledge that you have been sold a fake why would you contact them? If Tateward sold a fake to a buyer in the auction and that buyer suspects nothing, then unless Tate contact them they will never know that £4000 poster is in fact worthless. |
|
earthlinga2
Member
Posts: 1,023
Member Since: November 2019
|
Tate Ward selling fakes!, by earthlinga2 on Dec 22, 2020 13:01:17 GMT 1, Are you serious? If someone can't work out how to contact an auction house without coming on here first, then there is something seriously wrong with them. I'm sure you're not really that stupid and you're just sea-lioning. But I'll explain again for you. If you buy something in good faith from an auction house, frame it and have it hanging on your wall with no knowledge that you have been sold a fake why would you contact them? If Tateward sold a fake to a buyer in the auction and that buyer suspects nothing, then unless Tate contact them they will never know that £4000 poster is in fact worthless.
A fool and his money are easily parted.
Are you serious? If someone can't work out how to contact an auction house without coming on here first, then there is something seriously wrong with them. I'm sure you're not really that stupid and you're just sea-lioning. But I'll explain again for you. If you buy something in good faith from an auction house, frame it and have it hanging on your wall with no knowledge that you have been sold a fake why would you contact them? If Tateward sold a fake to a buyer in the auction and that buyer suspects nothing, then unless Tate contact them they will never know that £4000 poster is in fact worthless. And if you pay 4K for a poster without doing your homework first then you only have yourself to blame. A fool and his money are easily parted. |
|
|
|
Tate Ward selling fakes!, by charliec2701 on Dec 22, 2020 13:13:16 GMT 1, This has the potential to be a classic tab1 v treblenobass 56 page style thread !! Keep going earthlinga2....
This has the potential to be a classic tab1 v treblenobass 56 page style thread !! Keep going earthlinga2....
|
|
dreadware
Member
Posts: 470
Location: Europe
Member Since: July 2020
|
Tate Ward selling fakes!, by dreadware on Dec 22, 2020 13:13:49 GMT 1, I'm sure you're not really that stupid and you're just sea-lioning. But I'll explain again for you. If you buy something in good faith from an auction house, frame it and have it hanging on your wall with no knowledge that you have been sold a fake why would you contact them? If Tateward sold a fake to a buyer in the auction and that buyer suspects nothing, then unless Tate contact them they will never know that £4000 poster is in fact worthless. And if you pay 4K for a poster without doing your homework first then you only have yourself to blame. A fool and his money are easily parted.
But if I turn to a gallery, auction house, etc ...then they should do my homework , because I also pay a commission.
I'm sure you're not really that stupid and you're just sea-lioning. But I'll explain again for you. If you buy something in good faith from an auction house, frame it and have it hanging on your wall with no knowledge that you have been sold a fake why would you contact them? If Tateward sold a fake to a buyer in the auction and that buyer suspects nothing, then unless Tate contact them they will never know that £4000 poster is in fact worthless. And if you pay 4K for a poster without doing your homework first then you only have yourself to blame. A fool and his money are easily parted. If I am to buy from a flea market, car boot, ebay, from the newspaper, etc ...without "doing my homework",then yes, I am to blame. But if I turn to a gallery, auction house, etc ...then they should do my homework , because I also pay a commission. |
|
orenic
Member
Posts: 32
Member Since: December 2020
|
Tate Ward selling fakes!, by orenic on Dec 22, 2020 13:51:45 GMT 1, No goal posts have been shifted. If you have been sold a fake then contact the auction house. It's not rocket science. As the other forum member pointed out, the situation depends on which party discovers that the work is a fake first. If the auction house discovers before the buyer, then the auction house has the responsibility to contact the buyer. It's not rocket science.
So an auction house sells 14 fakes of the same poster and it’s the 14 buyers job to tell them  ? Seriously !!
No goal posts have been shifted. If you have been sold a fake then contact the auction house. It's not rocket science. As the other forum member pointed out, the situation depends on which party discovers that the work is a fake first. If the auction house discovers before the buyer, then the auction house has the responsibility to contact the buyer. It's not rocket science. So an auction house sells 14 fakes of the same poster and it’s the 14 buyers job to tell them ? Seriously !! |
|
jamieb
Member
Keep The Change, Ya Filthy Animal
Posts: 660
Member Since: December 2007
|
Tate Ward selling fakes!, by jamieb on Dec 22, 2020 13:57:12 GMT 1, I'm sure you're not really that stupid and you're just sea-lioning. But I'll explain again for you. If you buy something in good faith from an auction house, frame it and have it hanging on your wall with no knowledge that you have been sold a fake why would you contact them? If Tateward sold a fake to a buyer in the auction and that buyer suspects nothing, then unless Tate contact them they will never know that £4000 poster is in fact worthless. And if you pay 4K for a poster without doing your homework first then you only have yourself to blame. A fool and his money are easily parted.
I'm sure you're not really that stupid and you're just sea-lioning. But I'll explain again for you. If you buy something in good faith from an auction house, frame it and have it hanging on your wall with no knowledge that you have been sold a fake why would you contact them? If Tateward sold a fake to a buyer in the auction and that buyer suspects nothing, then unless Tate contact them they will never know that £4000 poster is in fact worthless. And if you pay 4K for a poster without doing your homework first then you only have yourself to blame. A fool and his money are easily parted. |
|
Rubberneck
Member
Posts: 960
Member Since: October 2018
|
Tate Ward selling fakes!, by Rubberneck on Dec 22, 2020 13:59:12 GMT 1, Yes earthling what you seem to be saying is that the auction house have no responsibility at all for their listing?? That they have no credibility?
Yes earthling what you seem to be saying is that the auction house have no responsibility at all for their listing?? That they have no credibility?
|
|
earthlinga2
Member
Posts: 1,023
Member Since: November 2019
|
Tate Ward selling fakes!, by earthlinga2 on Dec 22, 2020 14:54:25 GMT 1, Yes earthling what you seem to be saying is that the auction house have no responsibility at all for their listing?? That they have no credibility?
If a lot number is described as "Campbells Soup Can, signed A Warhol", that does not mean it is a genuine Andy Warhol print. Neither does it mean they are selling it as a genuine Andy Warhol print either. What it actually means is that the auction house thinks it is a fake but the buyer should make up their own mind on the matter and bid accordingly.
If the lot number is described as "Andy Warhol Soup Can print signed by the artist, complete with provenance" then you can be sure the auction house thinks it is genuine and if it isn't then you can easily get a refund.
But, in both scenarios, you do your homework first.
Yes earthling what you seem to be saying is that the auction house have no responsibility at all for their listing?? That they have no credibility? That's not what I said at all. But some people on here don't seem to realise how auction house listings work. If a lot number is described as "Campbells Soup Can, signed A Warhol", that does not mean it is a genuine Andy Warhol print. Neither does it mean they are selling it as a genuine Andy Warhol print either. What it actually means is that the auction house thinks it is a fake but the buyer should make up their own mind on the matter and bid accordingly. If the lot number is described as "Andy Warhol Soup Can print signed by the artist, complete with provenance" then you can be sure the auction house thinks it is genuine and if it isn't then you can easily get a refund. But, in both scenarios, you do your homework first. |
|
|
|
Tate Ward selling fakes!, by charliec2701 on Dec 22, 2020 15:06:23 GMT 1, Yes earthling what you seem to be saying is that the auction house have no responsibility at all for their listing?? That they have no credibility? That's not what I said at all. But some people on here don't seem to realise how auction house listings work. If a lot number is described as "Campbells Soup Can, signed A Warhol", that does not mean it is a genuine Andy Warhol print. Neither does it mean they are selling it as a genuine Andy Warhol print either. What it actually means is that the auction house thinks it is a fake but the buyer should make up their own mind on the matter and bid accordingly. If the lot number is described as "Andy Warhol Soup Can print signed by the artist, complete with provenance" then you can be sure the auction house thinks it is genuine and if it isn't then you can easily get a refund. But, in both scenarios, you do your homework first.
Sorry earthlinga2 but that’s complete nonsense. A ‘business’ has a duty to ensure that it does not sell on fakes knowingly. It is a criminal offence for a ‘business’ to knowingly do such.
Yes earthling what you seem to be saying is that the auction house have no responsibility at all for their listing?? That they have no credibility? That's not what I said at all. But some people on here don't seem to realise how auction house listings work. If a lot number is described as "Campbells Soup Can, signed A Warhol", that does not mean it is a genuine Andy Warhol print. Neither does it mean they are selling it as a genuine Andy Warhol print either. What it actually means is that the auction house thinks it is a fake but the buyer should make up their own mind on the matter and bid accordingly. If the lot number is described as "Andy Warhol Soup Can print signed by the artist, complete with provenance" then you can be sure the auction house thinks it is genuine and if it isn't then you can easily get a refund. But, in both scenarios, you do your homework first. Sorry earthlinga2 but that’s complete nonsense. A ‘business’ has a duty to ensure that it does not sell on fakes knowingly. It is a criminal offence for a ‘business’ to knowingly do such. |
|
JFCC
Member
Posts: 144
Member Since: May 2020
|
Tate Ward selling fakes!, by JFCC on Dec 22, 2020 15:30:51 GMT 1, Yes earthling what you seem to be saying is that the auction house have no responsibility at all for their listing?? That they have no credibility? That's not what I said at all. But some people on here don't seem to realise how auction house listings work. If a lot number is described as "Campbells Soup Can, signed A Warhol", that does not mean it is a genuine Andy Warhol print. Neither does it mean they are selling it as a genuine Andy Warhol print either. What it actually means is that the auction house thinks it is a fake but the buyer should make up their own mind on the matter and bid accordingly. If the lot number is described as "Andy Warhol Soup Can print signed by the artist, complete with provenance" then you can be sure the auction house thinks it is genuine and if it isn't then you can easily get a refund. But, in both scenarios, you do your homework first.
So, your point if an auction house lists "Campbells Soup Can, signed by A Warhol" then YES they are saying its genuine to the best of their endeavours which due to the position they are in would require that they have investigated the provenance and can confirm it as such beyond reasonable doubt!!
Yes earthling what you seem to be saying is that the auction house have no responsibility at all for their listing?? That they have no credibility? That's not what I said at all. But some people on here don't seem to realise how auction house listings work. If a lot number is described as "Campbells Soup Can, signed A Warhol", that does not mean it is a genuine Andy Warhol print. Neither does it mean they are selling it as a genuine Andy Warhol print either. What it actually means is that the auction house thinks it is a fake but the buyer should make up their own mind on the matter and bid accordingly. If the lot number is described as "Andy Warhol Soup Can print signed by the artist, complete with provenance" then you can be sure the auction house thinks it is genuine and if it isn't then you can easily get a refund. But, in both scenarios, you do your homework first. Not sure why the continued intransigence or what you are gaining from it, but please refer to my previous posts, which all set out, that an auction House will be liable if they misrepresent anything they list for sale, so they have a duty of care as set in law to take all reasonable steps to ensure what they sell is genuine. They also have a moral obligation so to do as well, aside from the reputation issues it will create for them!! So, your point if an auction house lists "Campbells Soup Can, signed by A Warhol" then YES they are saying its genuine to the best of their endeavours which due to the position they are in would require that they have investigated the provenance and can confirm it as such beyond reasonable doubt!! |
|
jamieb
Member
Keep The Change, Ya Filthy Animal
Posts: 660
Member Since: December 2007
|
Tate Ward selling fakes!, by jamieb on Dec 22, 2020 15:34:53 GMT 1, Yes earthling what you seem to be saying is that the auction house have no responsibility at all for their listing?? That they have no credibility? That's not what I said at all. But some people on here don't seem to realise how auction house listings work. If a lot number is described as "Campbells Soup Can, signed A Warhol", that does not mean it is a genuine Andy Warhol print. Neither does it mean they are selling it as a genuine Andy Warhol print either. What it actually means is that the auction house thinks it is a fake but the buyer should make up their own mind on the matter and bid accordingly. If the lot number is described as "Andy Warhol Soup Can print signed by the artist, complete with provenance" then you can be sure the auction house thinks it is genuine and if it isn't then you can easily get a refund. But, in both scenarios, you do your homework first.
So by this odd logic, Tateward believed this Happy Choppers to be fake as it isn't signed by the artist and they don't have the COA 
www.tateward.com/auction/lot/72-banksy-british-1974--happy-choppers-2003/?lot=7025&so=0&st=banksy&sto=0&au=42&ef=&et=&ic=False&sd=2&pp=12&pn=3&g=1
Yes earthling what you seem to be saying is that the auction house have no responsibility at all for their listing?? That they have no credibility? That's not what I said at all. But some people on here don't seem to realise how auction house listings work. If a lot number is described as "Campbells Soup Can, signed A Warhol", that does not mean it is a genuine Andy Warhol print. Neither does it mean they are selling it as a genuine Andy Warhol print either. What it actually means is that the auction house thinks it is a fake but the buyer should make up their own mind on the matter and bid accordingly. If the lot number is described as "Andy Warhol Soup Can print signed by the artist, complete with provenance" then you can be sure the auction house thinks it is genuine and if it isn't then you can easily get a refund. But, in both scenarios, you do your homework first. So by this odd logic, Tateward believed this Happy Choppers to be fake as it isn't signed by the artist and they don't have the COA www.tateward.com/auction/lot/72-banksy-british-1974--happy-choppers-2003/?lot=7025&so=0&st=banksy&sto=0&au=42&ef=&et=&ic=False&sd=2&pp=12&pn=3&g=1 |
|
hellfo
Member
Posts: 993
Member Since: December 2017
|
Tate Ward selling fakes!, by hellfo on Dec 22, 2020 15:35:08 GMT 1, It's not nonsense.
There is no way to prove if something is original of not.
like, for example, "crisis as usual" by Banksy, the hackney poster by Stik, etc...
You can say "I believe this is original, because the paper seems ok, etc etc" but if someone says that it's 100% original, about a banksy piece without coa (because pest does not provide coa on that items) is lying
It's not nonsense.
There is no way to prove if something is original of not.
like, for example, "crisis as usual" by Banksy, the hackney poster by Stik, etc...
You can say "I believe this is original, because the paper seems ok, etc etc" but if someone says that it's 100% original, about a banksy piece without coa (because pest does not provide coa on that items) is lying
|
|
WOOF
Member
Posts: 4,308
Member Since: March 2014
|
Tate Ward selling fakes!, by WOOF on Dec 22, 2020 15:57:56 GMT 1, It's not nonsense. There is no way to prove if something is original of not. like, for example, "crisis as usual" by Banksy, the hackney poster by Stik, etc... You can say "I believe this is original, because the paper seems ok, etc etc" but if someone says that it's 100% original, about a banksy piece without coa (because pest does not provide coa on that items) is lying
It’s almost like if you can’t prove something is authentic
-Which there absolutely IS a way to do-
You shouldn’t be trying to auction it off.
It's not nonsense. There is no way to prove if something is original of not. like, for example, "crisis as usual" by Banksy, the hackney poster by Stik, etc... You can say "I believe this is original, because the paper seems ok, etc etc" but if someone says that it's 100% original, about a banksy piece without coa (because pest does not provide coa on that items) is lying It’s almost like if you can’t prove something is authentic -Which there absolutely IS a way to do- You shouldn’t be trying to auction it off. |
|
Rubberneck
Member
Posts: 960
Member Since: October 2018
|
Tate Ward selling fakes!, by Rubberneck on Dec 22, 2020 15:58:12 GMT 1, Yes earthling what you seem to be saying is that the auction house have no responsibility at all for their listing?? That they have no credibility? That's not what I said at all. But some people on here don't seem to realise how auction house listings work. If a lot number is described as "Campbells Soup Can, signed A Warhol", that does not mean it is a genuine Andy Warhol print. Neither does it mean they are selling it as a genuine Andy Warhol print either. What it actually means is that the auction house thinks it is a fake but the buyer should make up their own mind on the matter and bid accordingly. If the lot number is described as "Andy Warhol Soup Can print signed by the artist, complete with provenance" then you can be sure the auction house thinks it is genuine and if it isn't then you can easily get a refund. But, in both scenarios, you do your homework first.
Yes earthling what you seem to be saying is that the auction house have no responsibility at all for their listing?? That they have no credibility? That's not what I said at all. But some people on here don't seem to realise how auction house listings work. If a lot number is described as "Campbells Soup Can, signed A Warhol", that does not mean it is a genuine Andy Warhol print. Neither does it mean they are selling it as a genuine Andy Warhol print either. What it actually means is that the auction house thinks it is a fake but the buyer should make up their own mind on the matter and bid accordingly. If the lot number is described as "Andy Warhol Soup Can print signed by the artist, complete with provenance" then you can be sure the auction house thinks it is genuine and if it isn't then you can easily get a refund. But, in both scenarios, you do your homework first. You’ve just made that up, they cannot sell fake prints as genuine. There is no legal basis for that through semantics. If they think it’s fake they should sell as After Banksy or After Warhol. To not do so is passing it off as real which they are clearly incentivised to do to increase their profit. |
|
? Seriously !!
May 13, 2021 12:47:20 GMT 1
May 13, 2021 12:47:20 GMT 1