Deleted
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January 1970
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Help Refugees UK - Need 3000 Sleeping Bags, by Deleted on Feb 16, 2019 18:14:02 GMT 1, Quite impressed that a thread about donating sleeping bags has lead us to a discussion on the laffer curve though.
Quite impressed that a thread about donating sleeping bags has lead us to a discussion on the laffer curve though.
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Fast Eddie
New Member
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November 2018
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Help Refugees UK - Need 3000 Sleeping Bags, by Fast Eddie on Feb 16, 2019 18:31:07 GMT 1, Let me go back to baseline here. These economic migrants are (contrary to common misconception propped by nationalist politicians and people that subscribe to their views) not a drag on public finances in the US or Europe. They are net gain. This is not opinion, it is fact. This stuff can be measured. Accurately. The payroll taxes they pay, the cost of the public services they use, etc. It can be measured. It's essentially accounting. So before writing, please go check the numbers. It is not a crazy thing to ask on a forum where people constantly check auction prices and verify art sales as their job or passion. Let's not pretend it's so clear cut though. The increased supply of low skilled workers (decorators, call centre workers, economists etc) does suppress the wages of those that need it most. Hence why the boss of Pret a Manger, for example, is such a fan of freedom of movement.
That piece is heavy. It's the economics correspondent to the kind of medical publication your doctor would refer to when treating you. It is the standard reference journal for economists and it is sharp. More broadly, if you look at the scientific consensus on the labor market effects, it is clear.
Let me go back to baseline here. These economic migrants are (contrary to common misconception propped by nationalist politicians and people that subscribe to their views) not a drag on public finances in the US or Europe. They are net gain. This is not opinion, it is fact. This stuff can be measured. Accurately. The payroll taxes they pay, the cost of the public services they use, etc. It can be measured. It's essentially accounting. So before writing, please go check the numbers. It is not a crazy thing to ask on a forum where people constantly check auction prices and verify art sales as their job or passion. Let's not pretend it's so clear cut though. The increased supply of low skilled workers (decorators, call centre workers, economists etc) does suppress the wages of those that need it most. Hence why the boss of Pret a Manger, for example, is such a fan of freedom of movement. If you go and open the links above, say the AER research paper posted before, you see that it is clear cut. That piece is heavy. It's the economics correspondent to the kind of medical publication your doctor would refer to when treating you. It is the standard reference journal for economists and it is sharp. More broadly, if you look at the scientific consensus on the labor market effects, it is clear. |
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Deleted
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January 1970
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Help Refugees UK - Need 3000 Sleeping Bags, by Deleted on Feb 16, 2019 18:32:47 GMT 1, Let's not pretend it's so clear cut though. The increased supply of low skilled workers (decorators, call centre workers, economists etc) does suppress the wages of those that need it most. Hence why the boss of Pret a Manger, for example, is such a fan of freedom of movement. If you go and open the links above, say the AER research paper posted before, you see that it is clear cut. That piece is heavy. It's the economics correspondent to the kind of medical publication your doctor would refer to when treating you. It is the standard reference journal for economists and it is sharp. More broadly, if you look at the scientific consensus on the labor market effects, it is clear.
Point entirely missed.
Let's not pretend it's so clear cut though. The increased supply of low skilled workers (decorators, call centre workers, economists etc) does suppress the wages of those that need it most. Hence why the boss of Pret a Manger, for example, is such a fan of freedom of movement. If you go and open the links above, say the AER research paper posted before, you see that it is clear cut. That piece is heavy. It's the economics correspondent to the kind of medical publication your doctor would refer to when treating you. It is the standard reference journal for economists and it is sharp. More broadly, if you look at the scientific consensus on the labor market effects, it is clear. Point entirely missed. |
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Deleted
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January 1970
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Help Refugees UK - Need 3000 Sleeping Bags, by Deleted on Feb 16, 2019 18:34:18 GMT 1, Suppose it's a bit much to expect members of an art forum to care about the wages of those in low skilled jobs. As long as a single study fits their agenda we'll just keep saying that's the truth end of story.
Suppose it's a bit much to expect members of an art forum to care about the wages of those in low skilled jobs. As long as a single study fits their agenda we'll just keep saying that's the truth end of story.
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Fast Eddie
New Member
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November 2018
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Help Refugees UK - Need 3000 Sleeping Bags, by Fast Eddie on Feb 16, 2019 18:46:16 GMT 1, Suppose it's a bit much to expect members of an art forum to care about the wages of those in low skilled jobs. As long as a single study fits their agenda we'll just keep saying that's the truth end of story.
Suppose it's a bit much to expect members of an art forum to care about the wages of those in low skilled jobs. As long as a single study fits their agenda we'll just keep saying that's the truth end of story. Please, when you are discussing, with me at least, assume people understand your point, thought about it, produced a thorough assessment, and then replied. Were you to google "David Card Mariel Boatlift", you could document yourself on the vast literature on the matter. |
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Deleted
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January 1970
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Help Refugees UK - Need 3000 Sleeping Bags, by Deleted on Feb 16, 2019 18:48:55 GMT 1, Suppose it's a bit much to expect members of an art forum to care about the wages of those in low skilled jobs. As long as a single study fits their agenda we'll just keep saying that's the truth end of story. Please, when you are discussing, with me at least, assume people understand your point, thought about it, produced a thorough assessment, and then replied. Were you to google "David Card Mariel Boatlift", you could document yourself on the vast literature on the matter.
Please when discussing economics with anyone don't ever assume anything is 100% clear cut
Suppose it's a bit much to expect members of an art forum to care about the wages of those in low skilled jobs. As long as a single study fits their agenda we'll just keep saying that's the truth end of story. Please, when you are discussing, with me at least, assume people understand your point, thought about it, produced a thorough assessment, and then replied. Were you to google "David Card Mariel Boatlift", you could document yourself on the vast literature on the matter. Please when discussing economics with anyone don't ever assume anything is 100% clear cut |
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.dappy
Full Member
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December 2010
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Help Refugees UK - Need 3000 Sleeping Bags, by .dappy on Feb 16, 2019 18:52:04 GMT 1, ... this is all getting a bit Sheldon 
... this is all getting a bit Sheldon |
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Chris JL
Junior Member
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March 2017
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Help Refugees UK - Need 3000 Sleeping Bags, by Chris JL on Feb 16, 2019 19:11:30 GMT 1, Let's not pretend it's so clear cut though. The increased supply of low skilled workers (decorators, call centre workers, economists etc) does suppress the wages of those that need it most. Hence why the boss of Pret a Manger, for example, is such a fan of freedom of movement.
Your argument is affected by a so called partial equilibrium fallacy ie you are assuming that when the supply of immigrant labour increases, the rest of the economy stays the same — and that’s just plain wrong.
First, the immigrants not only supply labour, they also generate demand for goods and services . Especially since they end up consuming a very large share of their income (optimal saving rates tend to be roughly inversely proportional to wealth, and proportional to age before midlife, hence immigrants consume quite a bit since they tend to be younger and poorer). This effect in turn generates more work and wealth in the host country, pushing up wages too.
Second immigrants are typically younger than the average population, yet mostly not infant and post schooling. This implies that immigrant groups tend to pay in taxes much more than they receive in welfare benefits (since these are mostly absorbed by public health, pensions, and schooling costs). Hence immigrants help even public finances. Once again, reducing the needs for contractionary fiscal policies and therefore stimulating economic activity and everybody’s wages.
Even on the “law and order” front, immigrants seem to be a good deal, since as a whole they tend to commit less crimes than residents.
As Fast Eddie points out, these effects are not too hard to measure. And when researchers go and measure them (and have done so zillion times), the overwhelming scientific consensus is that immigration (at least of the type that we have experienced in the last few centuries of data) has a positive effect on the economy, on wages, and on public finances.
Indeed a fact, not an opinion.
Let's not pretend it's so clear cut though. The increased supply of low skilled workers (decorators, call centre workers, economists etc) does suppress the wages of those that need it most. Hence why the boss of Pret a Manger, for example, is such a fan of freedom of movement. Your argument is affected by a so called partial equilibrium fallacy ie you are assuming that when the supply of immigrant labour increases, the rest of the economy stays the same — and that’s just plain wrong. First, the immigrants not only supply labour, they also generate demand for goods and services . Especially since they end up consuming a very large share of their income (optimal saving rates tend to be roughly inversely proportional to wealth, and proportional to age before midlife, hence immigrants consume quite a bit since they tend to be younger and poorer). This effect in turn generates more work and wealth in the host country, pushing up wages too. Second immigrants are typically younger than the average population, yet mostly not infant and post schooling. This implies that immigrant groups tend to pay in taxes much more than they receive in welfare benefits (since these are mostly absorbed by public health, pensions, and schooling costs). Hence immigrants help even public finances. Once again, reducing the needs for contractionary fiscal policies and therefore stimulating economic activity and everybody’s wages. Even on the “law and order” front, immigrants seem to be a good deal, since as a whole they tend to commit less crimes than residents. As Fast Eddie points out, these effects are not too hard to measure. And when researchers go and measure them (and have done so zillion times), the overwhelming scientific consensus is that immigration (at least of the type that we have experienced in the last few centuries of data) has a positive effect on the economy, on wages, and on public finances. Indeed a fact, not an opinion. |
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Fast Eddie
New Member
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November 2018
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Help Refugees UK - Need 3000 Sleeping Bags, by Fast Eddie on Feb 16, 2019 19:13:08 GMT 1, Story of my life.
Maybe I should do a Pejac miniprint giveaway and send labor market calculations scribbled on the back.
Story of my life.
Maybe I should do a Pejac miniprint giveaway and send labor market calculations scribbled on the back.
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Chris JL
Junior Member
Posts • 1,766
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March 2017
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Help Refugees UK - Need 3000 Sleeping Bags, by Chris JL on Feb 16, 2019 19:16:42 GMT 1, Story of my life. Maybe I should do a Pejac miniprint giveaway and send labor market calculations scribbled on the back.
😂 might work
Story of my life. Maybe I should do a Pejac miniprint giveaway and send labor market calculations scribbled on the back. 😂 might work |
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Deleted
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January 1970
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Help Refugees UK - Need 3000 Sleeping Bags, by Deleted on Feb 16, 2019 20:06:34 GMT 1, Let's not pretend it's so clear cut though. The increased supply of low skilled workers (decorators, call centre workers, economists etc) does suppress the wages of those that need it most. Hence why the boss of Pret a Manger, for example, is such a fan of freedom of movement. Your argument is affected by a so called partial equilibrium fallacy ie you are assuming that when the supply of immigrant labour increases, the rest of the economy stays the same — and that’s just plain wrong. First, the immigrants not only supply labour, they also generate demand for goods and services . Especially since they end up consuming a very large share of their income (optimal saving rates tend to be roughly inversely proportional to wealth, and proportional to age before midlife, hence immigrants consume quite a bit since they tend to be younger and poorer). This effect in turn generates more work and wealth in the host country, pushing up wages too. Second immigrants are typically younger than the average population, yet mostly not infant and post schooling. This implies that immigrant groups tend to pay in taxes much more than they receive in welfare benefits (since these are mostly absorbed by public health, pensions, and schooling costs). Hence immigrants help even public finances. Once again, reducing the needs for contractionary fiscal policies and therefore stimulating economic activity and everybody’s wages. Even on the “law and order” front, immigrants seem to be a good deal, since as a whole they tend to commit less crimes than residents. As Fast Eddie points out, these effects are not too hard to measure. And when researchers go and measure them (and have done so zillion times), the overwhelming scientific consensus is that immigration (at least of the type that we have experienced in the last few centuries of data) has a positive effect on the economy, on wages, and on public finances. Indeed a fact, not an opinion.
And you suffer from both confirmation bias and never having had a real job.
Your opinion remains an opinion and not fact at all. There are plenty of studies out there that have proven wage suppression on low skilled workers.
It'll be of little comfort to your local check out lady that on average we are all better off (ignoring the lag) when she doesn't get a pay rise again this year. But who cares ay, she just had to accept "facts".
Let's not pretend it's so clear cut though. The increased supply of low skilled workers (decorators, call centre workers, economists etc) does suppress the wages of those that need it most. Hence why the boss of Pret a Manger, for example, is such a fan of freedom of movement. Your argument is affected by a so called partial equilibrium fallacy ie you are assuming that when the supply of immigrant labour increases, the rest of the economy stays the same — and that’s just plain wrong. First, the immigrants not only supply labour, they also generate demand for goods and services . Especially since they end up consuming a very large share of their income (optimal saving rates tend to be roughly inversely proportional to wealth, and proportional to age before midlife, hence immigrants consume quite a bit since they tend to be younger and poorer). This effect in turn generates more work and wealth in the host country, pushing up wages too. Second immigrants are typically younger than the average population, yet mostly not infant and post schooling. This implies that immigrant groups tend to pay in taxes much more than they receive in welfare benefits (since these are mostly absorbed by public health, pensions, and schooling costs). Hence immigrants help even public finances. Once again, reducing the needs for contractionary fiscal policies and therefore stimulating economic activity and everybody’s wages. Even on the “law and order” front, immigrants seem to be a good deal, since as a whole they tend to commit less crimes than residents. As Fast Eddie points out, these effects are not too hard to measure. And when researchers go and measure them (and have done so zillion times), the overwhelming scientific consensus is that immigration (at least of the type that we have experienced in the last few centuries of data) has a positive effect on the economy, on wages, and on public finances. Indeed a fact, not an opinion. And you suffer from both confirmation bias and never having had a real job. Your opinion remains an opinion and not fact at all. There are plenty of studies out there that have proven wage suppression on low skilled workers. It'll be of little comfort to your local check out lady that on average we are all better off (ignoring the lag) when she doesn't get a pay rise again this year. But who cares ay, she just had to accept "facts". |
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Fast Eddie
New Member
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November 2018
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Help Refugees UK - Need 3000 Sleeping Bags, by Fast Eddie on Feb 16, 2019 20:39:45 GMT 1, Most of us do not confuse stagnant median real wages for workers (completely true issue in most OECD countries since the 1990s) with the downward pressure on wages due to economic migrants specifically.
These two phenomena are largely unrelated and the first one is a much larger, broader and more worrisome issue, depending on technological change, globalization, and policy choices.
This general idea of "never had a real job" (as if going to college was a waste of time where idiots teach you) is also pretty lazy thinking in my opinion. But feel free to suggest to your kids to skip university and see what happens to their job market prospects.
Most of us do not confuse stagnant median real wages for workers (completely true issue in most OECD countries since the 1990s) with the downward pressure on wages due to economic migrants specifically.
These two phenomena are largely unrelated and the first one is a much larger, broader and more worrisome issue, depending on technological change, globalization, and policy choices.
This general idea of "never had a real job" (as if going to college was a waste of time where idiots teach you) is also pretty lazy thinking in my opinion. But feel free to suggest to your kids to skip university and see what happens to their job market prospects.
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.dappy
Full Member
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December 2010
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Help Refugees UK - Need 3000 Sleeping Bags, by .dappy on Feb 16, 2019 20:43:03 GMT 1, ... just because you don't go to university, does not mean that you cannot get a good and worthwhile job and support your family 🙄🙄🙄
... just because you don't go to university, does not mean that you cannot get a good and worthwhile job and support your family 🙄🙄🙄
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Deleted
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January 1970
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Help Refugees UK - Need 3000 Sleeping Bags, by Deleted on Feb 16, 2019 20:47:44 GMT 1, Most of us do not confuse stagnant median real wages for workers (completely true issue in most OECD countries since the 1990s) with the downward pressure on wages due to economic migrants specifically. These two phenomena are largely unrelated and the first one is a much larger, broader and more worrisome issue, depending on technological change, globalization, and policy choices. This general idea of "never had a real job" (as if going to college was a waste of time where idiots teach you) is also pretty lazy thinking in my opinion. But feel free to suggest to your kids to skip university and see what happens to their job market prospects.
"Largely unrelated" lol. Just because you say so to fit your argument? Sure. And I clearly keep stating the impact is worse for low skilled workers, because it's true.
The real learning at university doesn't come from the professors. But yes I do have a problem with life long "economists". Especially ones who seem to think a topic this vast can ever be clear cut. In fact it is hugely idiotic.
Most of us do not confuse stagnant median real wages for workers (completely true issue in most OECD countries since the 1990s) with the downward pressure on wages due to economic migrants specifically. These two phenomena are largely unrelated and the first one is a much larger, broader and more worrisome issue, depending on technological change, globalization, and policy choices. This general idea of "never had a real job" (as if going to college was a waste of time where idiots teach you) is also pretty lazy thinking in my opinion. But feel free to suggest to your kids to skip university and see what happens to their job market prospects. "Largely unrelated" lol. Just because you say so to fit your argument? Sure. And I clearly keep stating the impact is worse for low skilled workers, because it's true. The real learning at university doesn't come from the professors. But yes I do have a problem with life long "economists". Especially ones who seem to think a topic this vast can ever be clear cut. In fact it is hugely idiotic. |
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Deleted
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January 1970
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Help Refugees UK - Need 3000 Sleeping Bags, by Deleted on Feb 16, 2019 20:57:34 GMT 1, But feel free to suggest to your kids to skip university and see what happens to their job market prospects.[/quote]
I didn't go to university, have never been out of work and earn enough to support my wife and two children as the sole earner
But feel free to suggest to your kids to skip university and see what happens to their job market prospects.[/quote]
I didn't go to university, have never been out of work and earn enough to support my wife and two children as the sole earner
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Chris JL
Junior Member
Posts • 1,766
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March 2017
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Help Refugees UK - Need 3000 Sleeping Bags, by Chris JL on Feb 16, 2019 21:04:52 GMT 1, Most of us do not confuse stagnant median real wages for workers (completely true issue in most OECD countries since the 1990s) with the downward pressure on wages due to economic migrants specifically. These two phenomena are largely unrelated and the first one is a much larger, broader and more worrisome issue, depending on technological change, globalization, and policy choices. This general idea of "never had a real job" (as if going to college was a waste of time where idiots teach you) is also pretty lazy thinking in my opinion. But feel free to suggest to your kids to skip university and see what happens to their job market prospects. "Largely unrelated" lol. Just because you say so to fit your argument? Sure. And I clearly keep stating the impact is worse for low skilled workers, because it's true. The real learning at university doesn't come from the professors. But yes I do have a problem with life long "economists". Especially ones who seem to think a topic this vast can ever be clear cut. In fact it is hugely idiotic.
No, he says that these are largely unrelated phenomena just because he is well read - unlike you clearly.
Most of us do not confuse stagnant median real wages for workers (completely true issue in most OECD countries since the 1990s) with the downward pressure on wages due to economic migrants specifically. These two phenomena are largely unrelated and the first one is a much larger, broader and more worrisome issue, depending on technological change, globalization, and policy choices. This general idea of "never had a real job" (as if going to college was a waste of time where idiots teach you) is also pretty lazy thinking in my opinion. But feel free to suggest to your kids to skip university and see what happens to their job market prospects. "Largely unrelated" lol. Just because you say so to fit your argument? Sure. And I clearly keep stating the impact is worse for low skilled workers, because it's true. The real learning at university doesn't come from the professors. But yes I do have a problem with life long "economists". Especially ones who seem to think a topic this vast can ever be clear cut. In fact it is hugely idiotic. No, he says that these are largely unrelated phenomena just because he is well read - unlike you clearly. |
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Deleted
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January 1970
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Help Refugees UK - Need 3000 Sleeping Bags, by Deleted on Feb 16, 2019 21:06:36 GMT 1, On average people who haven't been to university make more than those who have. Obviously this is massively skewed by wealthy entrepreneurs but looking at the nuances doesn't seem to matter to the "economists" with hugely over inflated egos on here.
On average people who haven't been to university make more than those who have. Obviously this is massively skewed by wealthy entrepreneurs but looking at the nuances doesn't seem to matter to the "economists" with hugely over inflated egos on here.
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Fast Eddie
New Member
Posts • 698
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November 2018
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Help Refugees UK - Need 3000 Sleeping Bags, by Fast Eddie on Feb 16, 2019 21:07:40 GMT 1, Ok, I gave references to look at, which include some of the relevant figures. I could provide more for low skilled workers (please do read the ton of research on the Mariel Boatlift, it is fascinating and conclusive).
@araplatoon I am glad for you. But the job markets your kids will face will be different and much harder for the non-college educated (don't take my word for it, look at your government's labor market reports).
Peace.
Ok, I gave references to look at, which include some of the relevant figures. I could provide more for low skilled workers (please do read the ton of research on the Mariel Boatlift, it is fascinating and conclusive).
@araplatoon I am glad for you. But the job markets your kids will face will be different and much harder for the non-college educated (don't take my word for it, look at your government's labor market reports).
Peace.
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Deleted
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January 1970
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Help Refugees UK - Need 3000 Sleeping Bags, by Deleted on Feb 16, 2019 21:08:06 GMT 1, "Largely unrelated" lol. Just because you say so to fit your argument? Sure. And I clearly keep stating the impact is worse for low skilled workers, because it's true. The real learning at university doesn't come from the professors. But yes I do have a problem with life long "economists". Especially ones who seem to think a topic this vast can ever be clear cut. In fact it is hugely idiotic. No, he says that these are largely unrelated phenomena just because he is well read - unlike you clearly.
Once again you are wrong. I've read enough to know you're both chatting bollocks.
"Largely unrelated" lol. Just because you say so to fit your argument? Sure. And I clearly keep stating the impact is worse for low skilled workers, because it's true. The real learning at university doesn't come from the professors. But yes I do have a problem with life long "economists". Especially ones who seem to think a topic this vast can ever be clear cut. In fact it is hugely idiotic. No, he says that these are largely unrelated phenomena just because he is well read - unlike you clearly. Once again you are wrong. I've read enough to know you're both chatting bollocks. |
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Deleted
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January 1970
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Help Refugees UK - Need 3000 Sleeping Bags, by Deleted on Feb 16, 2019 21:15:43 GMT 1, Once again you are wrong. I've read enough to know you're both chatting bollocks. I’m not sure The Sun counts.
Haha good one...
Even though I think economists are huge frauds, I only found this out later in life after completing my economics degree.
I do enjoy the ego of economists that nobody else could have possibly read up on subjects. There is a huge debate on the topic of immigrant impact on wages and there is no consensus on the best empirical model to measure it. Anyone who claims there is one is lying or stupid. Or both. But the impact is there and especially on the low skilled.
Once again you are wrong. I've read enough to know you're both chatting bollocks. I’m not sure The Sun counts. Haha good one... Even though I think economists are huge frauds, I only found this out later in life after completing my economics degree. I do enjoy the ego of economists that nobody else could have possibly read up on subjects. There is a huge debate on the topic of immigrant impact on wages and there is no consensus on the best empirical model to measure it. Anyone who claims there is one is lying or stupid. Or both. But the impact is there and especially on the low skilled. |
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irl1
Full Member
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December 2017
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Help Refugees UK - Need 3000 Sleeping Bags, by irl1 on Feb 16, 2019 21:25:47 GMT 1,
Help Refugees U.A.A - Need 3000 Valium 
Help Refugees U.A.A - Need 3000 Valium |
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Chris JL
Junior Member
Posts • 1,766
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March 2017
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Help Refugees UK - Need 3000 Sleeping Bags, by Chris JL on Feb 16, 2019 21:28:50 GMT 1, No, he says that these are largely unrelated phenomena just because he is well read - unlike you clearly. Once again you are wrong. I've read enough to know you're both chatting bollocks.
Dispiriting. But have a weekend of bliss. 👋
No, he says that these are largely unrelated phenomena just because he is well read - unlike you clearly. Once again you are wrong. I've read enough to know you're both chatting bollocks. Dispiriting. But have a weekend of bliss. 👋 |
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Help Refugees UK - Need 3000 Sleeping Bags, by Kevin Anderson on Feb 16, 2019 21:40:41 GMT 1, Keeping up with the Keynesdashians.
Keeping up with the Keynesdashians.
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nex
Junior Member
Posts • 2,573
Likes • 1,819
February 2009
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Help Refugees UK - Need 3000 Sleeping Bags, by nex on Feb 16, 2019 21:44:56 GMT 1, There’s a fascinating discussion here, if both sides stuck to the facts and being polite. I note name calling takes precedence when the facts run out.
There’s a fascinating discussion here, if both sides stuck to the facts and being polite. I note name calling takes precedence when the facts run out.
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irl1
Full Member
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December 2017
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Help Refugees UK - Need 3000 Sleeping Bags, by irl1 on Feb 16, 2019 21:49:49 GMT 1, There’s a fascinating discussion here, if both sides stuck to the facts and being polite. I note name calling takes precedence when the facts run out.
Yes its getting more and more wimpyboy now
There’s a fascinating discussion here, if both sides stuck to the facts and being polite. I note name calling takes precedence when the facts run out. Yes its getting more and more wimpyboy now |
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nex
Junior Member
Posts • 2,573
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February 2009
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Help Refugees UK - Need 3000 Sleeping Bags, by nex on Feb 16, 2019 22:16:31 GMT 1, There’s a fascinating discussion here, if both sides stuck to the facts and being polite. I note name calling takes precedence when the facts run out.
2 further observations from a bystander, Chris’s assertations about taxation of the rich have not been discredited by anything proceeding as far as I can see? So if those opposing that viewport can address politely the why, that would be great.
I also note blanksy’s original point, was actually answered very well by kernow and sfnyc , if those opposing their insights have a counter viewpoint that addresses what they actually say, that would be wonderful.
There’s a fascinating discussion here, if both sides stuck to the facts and being polite. I note name calling takes precedence when the facts run out. 2 further observations from a bystander, Chris’s assertations about taxation of the rich have not been discredited by anything proceeding as far as I can see? So if those opposing that viewport can address politely the why, that would be great. I also note blanksy’s original point, was actually answered very well by kernow and sfnyc , if those opposing their insights have a counter viewpoint that addresses what they actually say, that would be wonderful. |
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Matt
Junior Member
Posts • 2,347
Likes • 3,434
September 2014
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Help Refugees UK - Need 3000 Sleeping Bags, by Matt on Feb 16, 2019 22:21:55 GMT 1, I’m not sure The Sun counts. Haha good one... Even though I think economists are huge frauds, I only found this out later in life after completing my economics degree. I do enjoy the ego of economists that nobody else could have possibly read up on subjects. There is a huge debate on the topic of immigrant impact on wages and there is no consensus on the best empirical model to measure it. Anyone who claims there is one is lying or stupid. Or both. But the impact is there and especially on the low skilled.
Maybe point us towards the studies / meterial underlying this “huge debate” going on at the moment.
I would genuinely be keen to read it, because the overwhelming amount of vastly researched materials I have read so far, point to the fact there is no debate.
I’m not sure The Sun counts. Haha good one... Even though I think economists are huge frauds, I only found this out later in life after completing my economics degree. I do enjoy the ego of economists that nobody else could have possibly read up on subjects. There is a huge debate on the topic of immigrant impact on wages and there is no consensus on the best empirical model to measure it. Anyone who claims there is one is lying or stupid. Or both. But the impact is there and especially on the low skilled. Maybe point us towards the studies / meterial underlying this “huge debate” going on at the moment. I would genuinely be keen to read it, because the overwhelming amount of vastly researched materials I have read so far, point to the fact there is no debate. |
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Deleted
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January 1970
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Help Refugees UK - Need 3000 Sleeping Bags, by Deleted on Feb 17, 2019 5:07:05 GMT 1, The main point you are all missing is automation/AI. Every study i've seen quoted and read on immigration of low skilled workers into a highly educated society bases their statistical data (inherently) on data from the past.
You can not compare pre-internet migration numbers where people actually migrated to work and had some basic skills to offer to a not that industrialized society, to post mass-internet migration numbers where a lot of people simply migrate because they have gotten the impression through the internet in general and social media in particular that 'the west' or 'Europe' offers you free money, housing and jobs, which is a huge improvement from the corrupt shithole you are currently living in.
There aren't actual jobs you can do when you have no skills or education, which is perfectly seen in the % of migrants arriving in the Netherlands that are either working or on welfare within a few years of arrival. 50,9% of all people on welfare in my country are non western immigrants, 9% are western immigrants. Dutch citizens make up the remaining 40%.
statline.cbs.nl/StatWeb/publication/?DM=SLNL&PA=82016NED
And it's getting worse. Way worse. There are giant leaps being made in AI and automation, which will render a lot of low skilled jobs obsolete. All these statistical models that base their conclusions on historical data tell me that they can project these same patterns on the future, which you just can't.
The main point you are all missing is automation/AI. Every study i've seen quoted and read on immigration of low skilled workers into a highly educated society bases their statistical data (inherently) on data from the past. You can not compare pre-internet migration numbers where people actually migrated to work and had some basic skills to offer to a not that industrialized society, to post mass-internet migration numbers where a lot of people simply migrate because they have gotten the impression through the internet in general and social media in particular that 'the west' or 'Europe' offers you free money, housing and jobs, which is a huge improvement from the corrupt shithole you are currently living in. There aren't actual jobs you can do when you have no skills or education, which is perfectly seen in the % of migrants arriving in the Netherlands that are either working or on welfare within a few years of arrival. 50,9% of all people on welfare in my country are non western immigrants, 9% are western immigrants. Dutch citizens make up the remaining 40%. statline.cbs.nl/StatWeb/publication/?DM=SLNL&PA=82016NEDAnd it's getting worse. Way worse. There are giant leaps being made in AI and automation, which will render a lot of low skilled jobs obsolete. All these statistical models that base their conclusions on historical data tell me that they can project these same patterns on the future, which you just can't. |
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nex
Junior Member
Posts • 2,573
Likes • 1,819
February 2009
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Help Refugees UK - Need 3000 Sleeping Bags, by nex on Feb 17, 2019 5:49:08 GMT 1, So I think your point is we should garner more tax dollars from the wealthy to fund training programmes and foreign aid?
So I think your point is we should garner more tax dollars from the wealthy to fund training programmes and foreign aid?
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moron
Junior Member
Posts • 2,711
Likes • 1,050
September 2017
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Help Refugees UK - Need 3000 Sleeping Bags, by moron on Feb 17, 2019 22:31:55 GMT 1, Uprgading or replacing every building should be fun! How about electric charging stations "everywhere" or "replacing air travel with trains", even to Hawaii? AOC is so dumb that it's funny in a way, but then you think she actually holds an elected position in American government and you just shake your head. But hey, if you are unwilling to work, the green new deal is pretty good for you!
Put a small wind generator and solar panel on top of every street light post in a country and generate lots of electricity and jobs.
Shop doors too that people open and close, connect them to some device that generates electricity and shoppers entering do the work for you. Where is Elton Musk when you need him?
Uprgading or replacing every building should be fun! How about electric charging stations "everywhere" or "replacing air travel with trains", even to Hawaii? AOC is so dumb that it's funny in a way, but then you think she actually holds an elected position in American government and you just shake your head. But hey, if you are unwilling to work, the green new deal is pretty good for you! Put a small wind generator and solar panel on top of every street light post in a country and generate lots of electricity and jobs. Shop doors too that people open and close, connect them to some device that generates electricity and shoppers entering do the work for you. Where is Elton Musk when you need him? |
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