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Banksy - The Walled Off Hotel ★★★, by put the kettle on on May 17, 2021 14:06:59 GMT 1, Don't really know, if you are just not very skilled in writing, uneducated or if you are an anti-semite as it shines through in some of your posts. Russia, France, Dresden, Hiroshima all suffered unimaginable treatments in the war called WW2, the Jewish on the other hand were slaughtered in a Genocide called Holocaust. That Holocaust had its root in the kind of anti-Jew protests that you are downplaying here (in the sense that you disagree with the London police how that they should prioritise their job). If you really want people to respect your arguments and learn from you, call the Holocaust Holocaust and avoid continuing any sentence about it with a "but...". Hiroshima lost how many innocent lives? Millions of lives lost through slavery over 400 years.the Japanese slaughtered millions of Chinese in the occupation of China during ww2. The Russians slaughtered whole towns in the occupation of Poland after the war. Concentration and death camps the nazi developed from first using in Africa on the African populations. For the world to develop, we are supposed to learn from the mistakes made in the past and stop these types of groups with their ideologies from reaching power also not to lay hate on future generations that had no part in past events. , these regimes were causing the issues , the government in power not the people / citizens are the issue.The same issues today why should this not be discussed and if so viewed as anti semite, this is why I quoted earlier the sensitivity in approaching this subject, any other view is anti semite now? You show hostility with your vented anger and bringing the holocaust into the argument when talking about events happening today My point being originally isreal more that any other country in modern times is aware of the suffering division causes but has set up these conditions of ghettos and division that it’s people once suffered.
Don't really know, if you are just not very skilled in writing, uneducated or if you are an anti-semite as it shines through in some of your posts. Russia, France, Dresden, Hiroshima all suffered unimaginable treatments in the war called WW2, the Jewish on the other hand were slaughtered in a Genocide called Holocaust. That Holocaust had its root in the kind of anti-Jew protests that you are downplaying here (in the sense that you disagree with the London police how that they should prioritise their job). If you really want people to respect your arguments and learn from you, call the Holocaust Holocaust and avoid continuing any sentence about it with a "but...". Hiroshima lost how many innocent lives? Millions of lives lost through slavery over 400 years.the Japanese slaughtered millions of Chinese in the occupation of China during ww2. The Russians slaughtered whole towns in the occupation of Poland after the war. Concentration and death camps the nazi developed from first using in Africa on the African populations. For the world to develop, we are supposed to learn from the mistakes made in the past and stop these types of groups with their ideologies from reaching power also not to lay hate on future generations that had no part in past events. , these regimes were causing the issues , the government in power not the people / citizens are the issue.The same issues today why should this not be discussed and if so viewed as anti semite, this is why I quoted earlier the sensitivity in approaching this subject, any other view is anti semite now? You show hostility with your vented anger and bringing the holocaust into the argument when talking about events happening today My point being originally isreal more that any other country in modern times is aware of the suffering division causes but has set up these conditions of ghettos and division that it’s people once suffered. Tab 1 have you every been to Israel or Palestine? |
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tab1
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Banksy - The Walled Off Hotel ★★★, by tab1 on May 17, 2021 14:11:24 GMT 1, Hiroshima lost how many innocent lives? Millions of lives lost through slavery over 400 years.the Japanese slaughtered millions of Chinese in the occupation of China during ww2. The Russians slaughtered whole towns in the occupation of Poland after the war. Concentration and death camps the nazi developed from first using in Africa on the African populations. For the world to develop, we are supposed to learn from the mistakes made in the past and stop these types of groups with their ideologies from reaching power also not to lay hate on future generations that had no part in past events. , these regimes were causing the issues , the government in power not the people / citizens are the issue.The same issues today why should this not be discussed and if so viewed as anti semite, this is why I quoted earlier the sensitivity in approaching this subject, any other view is anti semite now? You show hostility with your vented anger and bringing the holocaust into the argument when talking about events happening today My point being originally isreal more that any other country in modern times is aware of the suffering division causes but has set up these conditions of ghettos and division that it’s people once suffered. Tab 1 have you every been to Israel or Palestine?
Only people that have visited are allowed to discuss topics concerning the states?have you dementia? We have discussed this already
Hiroshima lost how many innocent lives? Millions of lives lost through slavery over 400 years.the Japanese slaughtered millions of Chinese in the occupation of China during ww2. The Russians slaughtered whole towns in the occupation of Poland after the war. Concentration and death camps the nazi developed from first using in Africa on the African populations. For the world to develop, we are supposed to learn from the mistakes made in the past and stop these types of groups with their ideologies from reaching power also not to lay hate on future generations that had no part in past events. , these regimes were causing the issues , the government in power not the people / citizens are the issue.The same issues today why should this not be discussed and if so viewed as anti semite, this is why I quoted earlier the sensitivity in approaching this subject, any other view is anti semite now? You show hostility with your vented anger and bringing the holocaust into the argument when talking about events happening today My point being originally isreal more that any other country in modern times is aware of the suffering division causes but has set up these conditions of ghettos and division that it’s people once suffered. Tab 1 have you every been to Israel or Palestine? Only people that have visited are allowed to discuss topics concerning the states?have you dementia? We have discussed this already |
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Banksy - The Walled Off Hotel ★★★, by put the kettle on on May 17, 2021 14:20:17 GMT 1, Tab 1 have you every been to Israel or Palestine? Only people that have visited are allowed to discuss topics concerning the states?have you dementia? We have discussed this already
Tab 1 have you every been to Israel or Palestine? Only people that have visited are allowed to discuss topics concerning the states?have you dementia? We have discussed this already Of Course you can discuss to your hearts content. I have asked you this question (have you been to the region) before but what has become apparent is you rarely answer important points. You sound like many people who have a high opinion on this subject, how do you know the things you know. |
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tab1
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Banksy - The Walled Off Hotel ★★★, by tab1 on May 17, 2021 14:25:35 GMT 1, Only people that have visited are allowed to discuss topics concerning the states?have you dementia? We have discussed this already Of Course you can discuss to your hearts content. I have asked you this question (have you been to the region) before but what has become apparent is you rarely answer important points. You sound like many people who have a high opinion on this subject, how do you know the things you know.
just like you, everyone is entitled to their own opinion of thought
Only people that have visited are allowed to discuss topics concerning the states?have you dementia? We have discussed this already Of Course you can discuss to your hearts content. I have asked you this question (have you been to the region) before but what has become apparent is you rarely answer important points. You sound like many people who have a high opinion on this subject, how do you know the things you know. just like you, everyone is entitled to their own opinion of thought |
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Banksy - The Walled Off Hotel ★★★, by put the kettle on on May 17, 2021 14:39:07 GMT 1, Of Course you can discuss to your hearts content. I have asked you this question (have you been to the region) before but what has become apparent is you rarely answer important points. You sound like many people who have a high opinion on this subject, how do you know the things you know. just like you, everyone is entitled to their own opinion of thought
Of Course you can discuss to your hearts content. I have asked you this question (have you been to the region) before but what has become apparent is you rarely answer important points. You sound like many people who have a high opinion on this subject, how do you know the things you know. just like you, everyone is entitled to their own opinion of thought But this is a problem, What do you base your opinion on. Is it all black and white or are there lots of grey areas. If you base your opinion solely on what you read (other opinion or bias) then you can find yourself way off they mark and just taking refuge in consense, which is easy with half a brain. Going to an area that lots of people have a opinion often will make you see things a lot clearer. What I saw at the weekend in London makes you question have these people really taken the time to understand what really going on or are they just following the pied piper. Is that what you are doing? |
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Reader
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June 2016
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Banksy - The Walled Off Hotel ★★★, by Reader on May 17, 2021 14:58:03 GMT 1, just like you, everyone is entitled to their own opinion of thought But this is a problem, What do you base your opinion on. Is it all black and white or are there lots of grey areas. If you base your opinion solely on what you read (other opinion or bias) then you can find yourself way off they mark and just taking refuge in consense, which is easy with half a brain. Going to an area that lots of people have a opinion often will make you see things a lot clearer. What I saw at the weekend in London makes you question have these people really taken the time to understand what really going on or are they just following the pied piper. Is that what you are doing?
just like you, everyone is entitled to their own opinion of thought But this is a problem, What do you base your opinion on. Is it all black and white or are there lots of grey areas. If you base your opinion solely on what you read (other opinion or bias) then you can find yourself way off they mark and just taking refuge in consense, which is easy with half a brain. Going to an area that lots of people have a opinion often will make you see things a lot clearer. What I saw at the weekend in London makes you question have these people really taken the time to understand what really going on or are they just following the pied piper. Is that what you are doing? It's all Black & White. Israel is an occupying coloniser, an ethnostate dedicated to ethnically cleansing Palestine with the support of several other colonisers such as France, USA, Australia and the UK. They are a racist state with the 4th largest army on Earth, currently bombing woman, children and other civilians into the dark ages in a series of war crimes. Netanyahu and the IDF stage managed the current conflict in order to bolster his chances for re-election. Hamas, whether we like it or not, are a democratically elected party in Gaza, yes, they have a military wing. But also strong elements of social services through Dawah. They are by no means regarded as a terrorist organisation by most countries, perhaps just 7 or 8, mostly made of the earlier colonisers listed. Zionists are 100% dedicated to wiping Palestians off the map, this is a written and stated goal. In spite of the common rhetoric of it being the other way around. Israel is an apartheid state and should be boycotted, divested and sanctioned. Hopefully the movement to do so will gather pace after the current attempts to commit genocide against the Palestinian people has abated. |
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Banksy - The Walled Off Hotel ★★★, by put the kettle on on May 17, 2021 15:19:38 GMT 1, But this is a problem, What do you base your opinion on. Is it all black and white or are there lots of grey areas. If you base your opinion solely on what you read (other opinion or bias) then you can find yourself way off they mark and just taking refuge in consense, which is easy with half a brain. Going to an area that lots of people have a opinion often will make you see things a lot clearer. What I saw at the weekend in London makes you question have these people really taken the time to understand what really going on or are they just following the pied piper. Is that what you are doing? It's all Black & White. Israel is an occupying coloniser, an ethnostate dedicated to ethnically cleansing Palestine with the support of several other colonisers such as France, USA, Australia and the UK. They are a racist state with the 4th largest army on Earth, currently bombing woman, children and other civilians into the dark ages in a series of war crimes. Netanyahu and the IDF stage managed the current conflict in order to bolster his chances for re-election. Hamas, whether we like it or not, are a democratically elected party in Gaza, yes, they have a military wing. But also strong elements of social services through Dawah. They are by no means regarded as a terrorist organisation by most countries, perhaps just 7 or 8, mostly made of the earlier colonisers listed. Zionists are 100% dedicated to wiping Palestians off the map, this is a written and stated goal. In spite of the common rhetoric of it being the other way around. Israel is an apartheid state and should be boycotted, divested and sanctioned. Hopefully the movement to do so will gather pace after the current attempts to commit genocide against the Palestinian people has abated.
But this is a problem, What do you base your opinion on. Is it all black and white or are there lots of grey areas. If you base your opinion solely on what you read (other opinion or bias) then you can find yourself way off they mark and just taking refuge in consense, which is easy with half a brain. Going to an area that lots of people have a opinion often will make you see things a lot clearer. What I saw at the weekend in London makes you question have these people really taken the time to understand what really going on or are they just following the pied piper. Is that what you are doing? It's all Black & White. Israel is an occupying coloniser, an ethnostate dedicated to ethnically cleansing Palestine with the support of several other colonisers such as France, USA, Australia and the UK. They are a racist state with the 4th largest army on Earth, currently bombing woman, children and other civilians into the dark ages in a series of war crimes. Netanyahu and the IDF stage managed the current conflict in order to bolster his chances for re-election. Hamas, whether we like it or not, are a democratically elected party in Gaza, yes, they have a military wing. But also strong elements of social services through Dawah. They are by no means regarded as a terrorist organisation by most countries, perhaps just 7 or 8, mostly made of the earlier colonisers listed. Zionists are 100% dedicated to wiping Palestians off the map, this is a written and stated goal. In spite of the common rhetoric of it being the other way around. Israel is an apartheid state and should be boycotted, divested and sanctioned. Hopefully the movement to do so will gather pace after the current attempts to commit genocide against the Palestinian people has abated. You see Tab1, this is the kind of twisted viewpoint you get. This person quite clearly has never been to the region and doesn't have a balanced view it all black and white as he states. The one thing you take away from your first visit is that this is far more complicated than you ever imagine. Hence this is why. I know reader has not been there. I personal love this region of the world to the people the land and the food. There is a big Elephant in the room that is very rarely mentioned. |
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tab1
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Banksy - The Walled Off Hotel ★★★, by tab1 on May 17, 2021 15:26:18 GMT 1, just like you, everyone is entitled to their own opinion of thought But this is a problem, What do you base your opinion on. Is it all black and white or are there lots of grey areas. If you base your opinion solely on what you read (other opinion or bias) then you can find yourself way off they mark and just taking refuge in consense, which is easy with half a brain. Going to an area that lots of people have a opinion often will make you see things a lot clearer. What I saw at the weekend in London makes you question have these people really taken the time to understand what really going on or are they just following the pied piper. Is that what you are doing?
Yes it is what I am doing! Twit! Bore off
Not one event should be viewed higher than another, in any event where a life has been lost meaninglessly from any oppression,empathy, dignity and respect should be viewed the same towards those groups
just like you, everyone is entitled to their own opinion of thought But this is a problem, What do you base your opinion on. Is it all black and white or are there lots of grey areas. If you base your opinion solely on what you read (other opinion or bias) then you can find yourself way off they mark and just taking refuge in consense, which is easy with half a brain. Going to an area that lots of people have a opinion often will make you see things a lot clearer. What I saw at the weekend in London makes you question have these people really taken the time to understand what really going on or are they just following the pied piper. Is that what you are doing? Yes it is what I am doing! Twit! Bore off Not one event should be viewed higher than another, in any event where a life has been lost meaninglessly from any oppression,empathy, dignity and respect should be viewed the same towards those groups |
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Reader
Junior Member
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June 2016
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Banksy - The Walled Off Hotel ★★★, by Reader on May 17, 2021 15:31:43 GMT 1, It's all Black & White. Israel is an occupying coloniser, an ethnostate dedicated to ethnically cleansing Palestine with the support of several other colonisers such as France, USA, Australia and the UK. They are a racist state with the 4th largest army on Earth, currently bombing woman, children and other civilians into the dark ages in a series of war crimes. Netanyahu and the IDF stage managed the current conflict in order to bolster his chances for re-election. Hamas, whether we like it or not, are a democratically elected party in Gaza, yes, they have a military wing. But also strong elements of social services through Dawah. They are by no means regarded as a terrorist organisation by most countries, perhaps just 7 or 8, mostly made of the earlier colonisers listed. Zionists are 100% dedicated to wiping Palestians off the map, this is a written and stated goal. In spite of the common rhetoric of it being the other way around. Israel is an apartheid state and should be boycotted, divested and sanctioned. Hopefully the movement to do so will gather pace after the current attempts to commit genocide against the Palestinian people has abated. You see Tab1, this is the kind of twisted viewpoint you get. This person quite clearly has never been to the region and doesn't have a balanced view it all black and white as he states. The one thing you take away from your first visit is that this is far more complicated than you ever imagine. Hence this is why. I know reader has not been there. I personal love this region of the world to the people the land and the food. There is a big Elephant in the room that is very rarely mentioned. 
Keep being wrong...
It's all Black & White. Israel is an occupying coloniser, an ethnostate dedicated to ethnically cleansing Palestine with the support of several other colonisers such as France, USA, Australia and the UK. They are a racist state with the 4th largest army on Earth, currently bombing woman, children and other civilians into the dark ages in a series of war crimes. Netanyahu and the IDF stage managed the current conflict in order to bolster his chances for re-election. Hamas, whether we like it or not, are a democratically elected party in Gaza, yes, they have a military wing. But also strong elements of social services through Dawah. They are by no means regarded as a terrorist organisation by most countries, perhaps just 7 or 8, mostly made of the earlier colonisers listed. Zionists are 100% dedicated to wiping Palestians off the map, this is a written and stated goal. In spite of the common rhetoric of it being the other way around. Israel is an apartheid state and should be boycotted, divested and sanctioned. Hopefully the movement to do so will gather pace after the current attempts to commit genocide against the Palestinian people has abated. You see Tab1, this is the kind of twisted viewpoint you get. This person quite clearly has never been to the region and doesn't have a balanced view it all black and white as he states. The one thing you take away from your first visit is that this is far more complicated than you ever imagine. Hence this is why. I know reader has not been there. I personal love this region of the world to the people the land and the food. There is a big Elephant in the room that is very rarely mentioned. Keep being wrong... |
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Banksy - The Walled Off Hotel ★★★, by Horatio Nelson on May 17, 2021 15:43:31 GMT 1, Tab1 - are you really trying to underplay the seriousness of something like this? At a minimum it seems like you are unable to put yourself in the shoes of the victims here. To put it in a way that you may understand - imagine a cavalcade of cars came to your village driving around saying “f*** all art collectors - destroy their prints and rape their family members”. If you were to call the police and they said they would send out patrol cars and a helicopter to find those individuals, i don’t think you’d be complaining. Same argument, imagine a group of people coming to your house and forcing and dragging you and your family with kids out of your own home with out your possessions then bulldozing your home you built for your family with no legal rights or financial compensation ? You have strong opinions on discussion on a cost of helicopter being called out for comments but silence and no opinion on these events ?that occur regularly www.google.com/amp/s/www.middleeastmonitor.com/20190429-israel-forced-3000-palestinians-out-of-their-homes-in-jerusalem-over-15-years-says-btselem/amp/
I’m not saying Israel is right or wrong, but that in no way mitigates the criminality or threats posed by a group of individuals doing what they did in North West London yesterday evening. So many people wrongfully conflate “Israel” with Jewish people (even including Jews living outside Israel). You really don’t get it.
Tab1 - are you really trying to underplay the seriousness of something like this? At a minimum it seems like you are unable to put yourself in the shoes of the victims here. To put it in a way that you may understand - imagine a cavalcade of cars came to your village driving around saying “f*** all art collectors - destroy their prints and rape their family members”. If you were to call the police and they said they would send out patrol cars and a helicopter to find those individuals, i don’t think you’d be complaining. Same argument, imagine a group of people coming to your house and forcing and dragging you and your family with kids out of your own home with out your possessions then bulldozing your home you built for your family with no legal rights or financial compensation ? You have strong opinions on discussion on a cost of helicopter being called out for comments but silence and no opinion on these events ?that occur regularly www.google.com/amp/s/www.middleeastmonitor.com/20190429-israel-forced-3000-palestinians-out-of-their-homes-in-jerusalem-over-15-years-says-btselem/amp/I’m not saying Israel is right or wrong, but that in no way mitigates the criminality or threats posed by a group of individuals doing what they did in North West London yesterday evening. So many people wrongfully conflate “Israel” with Jewish people (even including Jews living outside Israel). You really don’t get it. |
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tab1
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Banksy - The Walled Off Hotel ★★★, by tab1 on May 17, 2021 15:52:35 GMT 1, I’m not saying Israel is right or wrong, but that in no way mitigates the criminality or threats posed by a group of individuals doing what they did in North West London yesterday evening. So many people wrongfully conflate “Israel” with Jewish people (even including Jews living outside Israel). You really don’t get it.
Exactly ,no comment on the Israeli governments actions.
But come down hard on the criminality behavior of a few spoilt attention seeking kids driving around in 30k cars probably bought by their parents shouting obscenities that realistically they will not follow through with and give up their privilege lives but have no comment on the criminal behavior of Israel’s land grabs and killing of civilians?
Read the entire thread before jumping on your high horse
I’m sure this mother would of appreciated the resources
www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/world/2021/04/06/british-police-richard-okorogheye/%3foutputType=amp
I’m not saying Israel is right or wrong, but that in no way mitigates the criminality or threats posed by a group of individuals doing what they did in North West London yesterday evening. So many people wrongfully conflate “Israel” with Jewish people (even including Jews living outside Israel). You really don’t get it. Exactly ,no comment on the Israeli governments actions. But come down hard on the criminality behavior of a few spoilt attention seeking kids driving around in 30k cars probably bought by their parents shouting obscenities that realistically they will not follow through with and give up their privilege lives but have no comment on the criminal behavior of Israel’s land grabs and killing of civilians? Read the entire thread before jumping on your high horse I’m sure this mother would of appreciated the resources www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/world/2021/04/06/british-police-richard-okorogheye/%3foutputType=amp |
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Banksy - The Walled Off Hotel ★★★, by put the kettle on on May 17, 2021 15:53:47 GMT 1, But this is a problem, What do you base your opinion on. Is it all black and white or are there lots of grey areas. If you base your opinion solely on what you read (other opinion or bias) then you can find yourself way off they mark and just taking refuge in consense, which is easy with half a brain. Going to an area that lots of people have a opinion often will make you see things a lot clearer. What I saw at the weekend in London makes you question have these people really taken the time to understand what really going on or are they just following the pied piper. Is that what you are doing? Yes it is what I am doing! Twit! Bore off Not one event should be viewed higher than another, in any event where a life has been lost meaninglessly from any oppression,empathy, dignity and respect should be viewed the same towards those groups
But this is a problem, What do you base your opinion on. Is it all black and white or are there lots of grey areas. If you base your opinion solely on what you read (other opinion or bias) then you can find yourself way off they mark and just taking refuge in consense, which is easy with half a brain. Going to an area that lots of people have a opinion often will make you see things a lot clearer. What I saw at the weekend in London makes you question have these people really taken the time to understand what really going on or are they just following the pied piper. Is that what you are doing? Yes it is what I am doing! Twit! Bore off Not one event should be viewed higher than another, in any event where a life has been lost meaninglessly from any oppression,empathy, dignity and respect should be viewed the same towards those groups There you have it. Full of words with no meaning. |
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Banksy - The Walled Off Hotel ★★★, by put the kettle on on May 17, 2021 15:56:40 GMT 1, You see Tab1, this is the kind of twisted viewpoint you get. This person quite clearly has never been to the region and doesn't have a balanced view it all black and white as he states. The one thing you take away from your first visit is that this is far more complicated than you ever imagine. Hence this is why. I know reader has not been there. I personal love this region of the world to the people the land and the food. There is a big Elephant in the room that is very rarely mentioned. Keep being wrong...
You see Tab1, this is the kind of twisted viewpoint you get. This person quite clearly has never been to the region and doesn't have a balanced view it all black and white as he states. The one thing you take away from your first visit is that this is far more complicated than you ever imagine. Hence this is why. I know reader has not been there. I personal love this region of the world to the people the land and the food. There is a big Elephant in the room that is very rarely mentioned. Keep being wrong... Well done you sprayed on a wall, Apart from having a great time, did you learn something! |
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tab1
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Banksy - The Walled Off Hotel ★★★, by tab1 on May 17, 2021 15:56:43 GMT 1, Yes it is what I am doing! Twit! Bore off Not one event should be viewed higher than another, in any event where a life has been lost meaninglessly from any oppression,empathy, dignity and respect should be viewed the same towards those groups There you have it. Full of words with no meaning.
Perfect for you 😉
Yes it is what I am doing! Twit! Bore off Not one event should be viewed higher than another, in any event where a life has been lost meaninglessly from any oppression,empathy, dignity and respect should be viewed the same towards those groups There you have it. Full of words with no meaning. Perfect for you 😉 |
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sgolby
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November 2012
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Banksy - The Walled Off Hotel ★★★, by sgolby on May 17, 2021 16:03:18 GMT 1, Reader If I may point out some issues with the graphic you posted:
1. Zionism - is and ideology which calls for a jewish state as a reaction to waves of anti semitism throughout history, and it gained immense momentum during the lead up, during, and after world war two when much of the world, including the USA and the UK, turned their back on the jews by setting limits on the numbers of jewish refugees they would accept, by segregating them and by supporting regimes who sought to exterminate them.
2. Palestine - The land the world decided would be more convenient for the Jews to have than repatriating them and accepting them, thereby coercing the British Colonial regime to pull back and abedcate it's responsibility as a governing force. Yes, Israel was the ancestral land of the jews but to believe the Jews had the power tot take it for themselves is willful blindness. It is the same as saying the Jews killed Christ when we all know that it was the Roman's who killed him, fearing the spread of his words. it is a convenient yet wholly dishonest narrative.
3. The Pallestinians are no more indigenous than the Jews, it is for that reason that both sides must learn to live in peace with one another, because they both hold ancestral rights to the land.
4. While criticism of Israel is not anti semitism, the use of that criticism to call for the end of Israel is a terribly tragic argument. It is in fact the exact same argument used by those you are arguing against, however it goes like this. Arabs are Terrorists, Muslims are Radicals, Palestinians are Hamas and therefore terrorists. Instead it would be wise to say something along these lines, Bibi and the rise of Jewish Nationalists and right wing actors have setup a series fo circumstances that have resulted in an apartheid state and should answer for their crimes against humanity. The settler movement is criminal, and the establishment of a reparations counsel should be setup to mediate the land rights issue with the understanding that a two state solution is the only way this can end. Both states will have sovereignty and dominion over their lands. Do not forget that historically Hamas, Hezbollah, and Palestine's Arab neighbors have as much to do with the plight of the Palestinian people as Israel does.
5. Both sides are guilty of Murder, and simplifying it to anti this and anti that is what allows both sides to get away with murder, not only the lack of criticism of the current Israeli government. It is a lack of willingness to deep dive into the complexities and geopolitical realities by most of the world that allows murder to be overlooked on both sides. P.S. look into what happens to people in Gaza that speak out against Hammas, and you will find quite a bit to be angry about.
6. It is absolutely possible for criticism of Israel and Zionism to exist without anti semitic tropes, however that criticism too often devolves into such Anti Semitism. Further, while there are plenty of well intentioned defenders of the Palestinian people too few of them are willing to condemn anti semitic, racist and hate filled rhetoric. Whereas you often see people, such as myself, who take the fight to the hate filled rhetoric spewed by vile characters like Bibi, or Naftali Bennet, or even simply members of my own family on social media.
7. Defund Israel, Defend Palestine, again while seemingly cute, is silly, because it is not that simple. Yes, preconditions to funding do in fact need to be in place. However Defunding Israel will do nothing to deter Israel's apartheid, in fact it would likely only enhance it. Financial leverage at a governmental level allows force to be exerted. The real action needs to be taken in your home countries to push for a peaceful two state solution, not calling for what seems to be the end of one state and the restoration of another.
Just my thoughts.
Reader If I may point out some issues with the graphic you posted: 1. Zionism - is and ideology which calls for a jewish state as a reaction to waves of anti semitism throughout history, and it gained immense momentum during the lead up, during, and after world war two when much of the world, including the USA and the UK, turned their back on the jews by setting limits on the numbers of jewish refugees they would accept, by segregating them and by supporting regimes who sought to exterminate them. 2. Palestine - The land the world decided would be more convenient for the Jews to have than repatriating them and accepting them, thereby coercing the British Colonial regime to pull back and abedcate it's responsibility as a governing force. Yes, Israel was the ancestral land of the jews but to believe the Jews had the power tot take it for themselves is willful blindness. It is the same as saying the Jews killed Christ when we all know that it was the Roman's who killed him, fearing the spread of his words. it is a convenient yet wholly dishonest narrative. 3. The Pallestinians are no more indigenous than the Jews, it is for that reason that both sides must learn to live in peace with one another, because they both hold ancestral rights to the land. 4. While criticism of Israel is not anti semitism, the use of that criticism to call for the end of Israel is a terribly tragic argument. It is in fact the exact same argument used by those you are arguing against, however it goes like this. Arabs are Terrorists, Muslims are Radicals, Palestinians are Hamas and therefore terrorists. Instead it would be wise to say something along these lines, Bibi and the rise of Jewish Nationalists and right wing actors have setup a series fo circumstances that have resulted in an apartheid state and should answer for their crimes against humanity. The settler movement is criminal, and the establishment of a reparations counsel should be setup to mediate the land rights issue with the understanding that a two state solution is the only way this can end. Both states will have sovereignty and dominion over their lands. Do not forget that historically Hamas, Hezbollah, and Palestine's Arab neighbors have as much to do with the plight of the Palestinian people as Israel does. 5. Both sides are guilty of Murder, and simplifying it to anti this and anti that is what allows both sides to get away with murder, not only the lack of criticism of the current Israeli government. It is a lack of willingness to deep dive into the complexities and geopolitical realities by most of the world that allows murder to be overlooked on both sides. P.S. look into what happens to people in Gaza that speak out against Hammas, and you will find quite a bit to be angry about. 6. It is absolutely possible for criticism of Israel and Zionism to exist without anti semitic tropes, however that criticism too often devolves into such Anti Semitism. Further, while there are plenty of well intentioned defenders of the Palestinian people too few of them are willing to condemn anti semitic, racist and hate filled rhetoric. Whereas you often see people, such as myself, who take the fight to the hate filled rhetoric spewed by vile characters like Bibi, or Naftali Bennet, or even simply members of my own family on social media. 7. Defund Israel, Defend Palestine, again while seemingly cute, is silly, because it is not that simple. Yes, preconditions to funding do in fact need to be in place. However Defunding Israel will do nothing to deter Israel's apartheid, in fact it would likely only enhance it. Financial leverage at a governmental level allows force to be exerted. The real action needs to be taken in your home countries to push for a peaceful two state solution, not calling for what seems to be the end of one state and the restoration of another. Just my thoughts.
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Banksy - The Walled Off Hotel ★★★, by Horatio Nelson on May 17, 2021 16:05:02 GMT 1, I’m not saying Israel is right or wrong, but that in no way mitigates the criminality or threats posed by a group of individuals doing what they did in North West London yesterday evening. So many people wrongfully conflate “Israel” with Jewish people (even including Jews living outside Israel). You really don’t get it. Exactly ,no comment on the Israeli governments actions. But come down hard on the criminality behavior of a few spoilt attention seeking kids driving around in 30k cars probably bought by their parents shouting obscenities that realistically they will not follow through with and give up their privilege lives but have no comment on the criminal behavior of Israel’s land grabs and killing of civilians? Read the entire thread before jumping on your high horse I’m sure this mother would of appreciated the resources www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/world/2021/04/06/british-police-richard-okorogheye/%3foutputType=amp
You’re right. High value cars possibly bought by the parents make it all ok. My bad.
I’m not saying Israel is right or wrong, but that in no way mitigates the criminality or threats posed by a group of individuals doing what they did in North West London yesterday evening. So many people wrongfully conflate “Israel” with Jewish people (even including Jews living outside Israel). You really don’t get it. Exactly ,no comment on the Israeli governments actions. But come down hard on the criminality behavior of a few spoilt attention seeking kids driving around in 30k cars probably bought by their parents shouting obscenities that realistically they will not follow through with and give up their privilege lives but have no comment on the criminal behavior of Israel’s land grabs and killing of civilians? Read the entire thread before jumping on your high horse I’m sure this mother would of appreciated the resources www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/world/2021/04/06/british-police-richard-okorogheye/%3foutputType=ampYou’re right. High value cars possibly bought by the parents make it all ok. My bad. |
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tab1
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Banksy - The Walled Off Hotel ★★★, by tab1 on May 17, 2021 16:18:59 GMT 1, Exactly ,no comment on the Israeli governments actions. But come down hard on the criminality behavior of a few spoilt attention seeking kids driving around in 30k cars probably bought by their parents shouting obscenities that realistically they will not follow through with and give up their privilege lives but have no comment on the criminal behavior of Israel’s land grabs and killing of civilians? Read the entire thread before jumping on your high horse I’m sure this mother would of appreciated the resources www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/world/2021/04/06/british-police-richard-okorogheye/%3foutputType=ampYou’re right. High value cars possibly bought by the parents make it all ok. My bad.
Don’t lose your safety blanket and your dummy and you will be ok
Where did I state it’s ok, these types of people are causing more harm and micro aggressions
Exactly ,no comment on the Israeli governments actions. But come down hard on the criminality behavior of a few spoilt attention seeking kids driving around in 30k cars probably bought by their parents shouting obscenities that realistically they will not follow through with and give up their privilege lives but have no comment on the criminal behavior of Israel’s land grabs and killing of civilians? Read the entire thread before jumping on your high horse I’m sure this mother would of appreciated the resources www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/world/2021/04/06/british-police-richard-okorogheye/%3foutputType=ampYou’re right. High value cars possibly bought by the parents make it all ok. My bad. Don’t lose your safety blanket and your dummy and you will be ok Where did I state it’s ok, these types of people are causing more harm and micro aggressions |
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Reader
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Banksy - The Walled Off Hotel ★★★, by Reader on May 17, 2021 16:32:09 GMT 1, Reader If I may point out some issues with the graphic you posted: 1. Zionism - is and ideology which calls for a jewish state as a reaction to waves of anti semitism throughout history, and it gained immense momentum during the lead up, during, and after world war two when much of the world, including the USA and the UK, turned their back on the jews by setting limits on the numbers of jewish refugees they would accept, by segregating them and by supporting regimes who sought to exterminate them. 2. Palestine - The land the world decided would be more convenient for the Jews to have than repatriating them and accepting them, thereby coercing the British Colonial regime to pull back and abedcate it's responsibility as a governing force. Yes, Israel was the ancestral land of the jews but to believe the Jews had the power tot take it for themselves is willful blindness. It is the same as saying the Jews killed Christ when we all know that it was the Roman's who killed him, fearing the spread of his words. it is a convenient yet wholly dishonest narrative. 3. The Pallestinians are no more indigenous than the Jews, it is for that reason that both sides must learn to live in peace with one another, because they both hold ancestral rights to the land. 4. While criticism of Israel is not anti semitism, the use of that criticism to call for the end of Israel is a terribly tragic argument. It is in fact the exact same argument used by those you are arguing against, however it goes like this. Arabs are Terrorists, Muslims are Radicals, Palestinians are Hamas and therefore terrorists. Instead it would be wise to say something along these lines, Bibi and the rise of Jewish Nationalists and right wing actors have setup a series fo circumstances that have resulted in an apartheid state and should answer for their crimes against humanity. The settler movement is criminal, and the establishment of a reparations counsel should be setup to mediate the land rights issue with the understanding that a two state solution is the only way this can end. Both states will have sovereignty and dominion over their lands. Do not forget that historically Hamas, Hezbollah, and Palestine's Arab neighbors have as much to do with the plight of the Palestinian people as Israel does. 5. Both sides are guilty of Murder, and simplifying it to anti this and anti that is what allows both sides to get away with murder, not only the lack of criticism of the current Israeli government. It is a lack of willingness to deep dive into the complexities and geopolitical realities by most of the world that allows murder to be overlooked on both sides. P.S. look into what happens to people in Gaza that speak out against Hammas, and you will find quite a bit to be angry about. 6. It is absolutely possible for criticism of Israel and Zionism to exist without anti semitic tropes, however that criticism too often devolves into such Anti Semitism. Further, while there are plenty of well intentioned defenders of the Palestinian people too few of them are willing to condemn anti semitic, racist and hate filled rhetoric. Whereas you often see people, such as myself, who take the fight to the hate filled rhetoric spewed by vile characters like Bibi, or Naftali Bennet, or even simply members of my own family on social media. 7. Defund Israel, Defend Palestine, again while seemingly cute, is silly, because it is not that simple. Yes, preconditions to funding do in fact need to be in place. However Defunding Israel will do nothing to deter Israel's apartheid, in fact it would likely only enhance it. Financial leverage at a governmental level allows force to be exerted. The real action needs to be taken in your home countries to push for a peaceful two state solution, not calling for what seems to be the end of one state and the restoration of another. Just my thoughts.
Reader If I may point out some issues with the graphic you posted: 1. Zionism - is and ideology which calls for a jewish state as a reaction to waves of anti semitism throughout history, and it gained immense momentum during the lead up, during, and after world war two when much of the world, including the USA and the UK, turned their back on the jews by setting limits on the numbers of jewish refugees they would accept, by segregating them and by supporting regimes who sought to exterminate them. 2. Palestine - The land the world decided would be more convenient for the Jews to have than repatriating them and accepting them, thereby coercing the British Colonial regime to pull back and abedcate it's responsibility as a governing force. Yes, Israel was the ancestral land of the jews but to believe the Jews had the power tot take it for themselves is willful blindness. It is the same as saying the Jews killed Christ when we all know that it was the Roman's who killed him, fearing the spread of his words. it is a convenient yet wholly dishonest narrative. 3. The Pallestinians are no more indigenous than the Jews, it is for that reason that both sides must learn to live in peace with one another, because they both hold ancestral rights to the land. 4. While criticism of Israel is not anti semitism, the use of that criticism to call for the end of Israel is a terribly tragic argument. It is in fact the exact same argument used by those you are arguing against, however it goes like this. Arabs are Terrorists, Muslims are Radicals, Palestinians are Hamas and therefore terrorists. Instead it would be wise to say something along these lines, Bibi and the rise of Jewish Nationalists and right wing actors have setup a series fo circumstances that have resulted in an apartheid state and should answer for their crimes against humanity. The settler movement is criminal, and the establishment of a reparations counsel should be setup to mediate the land rights issue with the understanding that a two state solution is the only way this can end. Both states will have sovereignty and dominion over their lands. Do not forget that historically Hamas, Hezbollah, and Palestine's Arab neighbors have as much to do with the plight of the Palestinian people as Israel does. 5. Both sides are guilty of Murder, and simplifying it to anti this and anti that is what allows both sides to get away with murder, not only the lack of criticism of the current Israeli government. It is a lack of willingness to deep dive into the complexities and geopolitical realities by most of the world that allows murder to be overlooked on both sides. P.S. look into what happens to people in Gaza that speak out against Hammas, and you will find quite a bit to be angry about. 6. It is absolutely possible for criticism of Israel and Zionism to exist without anti semitic tropes, however that criticism too often devolves into such Anti Semitism. Further, while there are plenty of well intentioned defenders of the Palestinian people too few of them are willing to condemn anti semitic, racist and hate filled rhetoric. Whereas you often see people, such as myself, who take the fight to the hate filled rhetoric spewed by vile characters like Bibi, or Naftali Bennet, or even simply members of my own family on social media. 7. Defund Israel, Defend Palestine, again while seemingly cute, is silly, because it is not that simple. Yes, preconditions to funding do in fact need to be in place. However Defunding Israel will do nothing to deter Israel's apartheid, in fact it would likely only enhance it. Financial leverage at a governmental level allows force to be exerted. The real action needs to be taken in your home countries to push for a peaceful two state solution, not calling for what seems to be the end of one state and the restoration of another. Just my thoughts. Agreed, but for now, if you could condense that and fit it on a meme so it can be shared. |
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Reader
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Banksy - The Walled Off Hotel ★★★, by Reader on May 17, 2021 16:38:41 GMT 1, Well done you sprayed on a wall, Apart from having a great time, did you learn something!
Wrong again, had a terrible time. And hey, i'm happy you enjoyed the falafel in Tel Aviv on your gap-year or whatever and you think the "people" are great, so hospitable right ?...but you're not about to change my mind on who is the aggressor in the current conflict.
Well done you sprayed on a wall, Apart from having a great time, did you learn something! Wrong again, had a terrible time. And hey, i'm happy you enjoyed the falafel in Tel Aviv on your gap-year or whatever and you think the "people" are great, so hospitable right ?...but you're not about to change my mind on who is the aggressor in the current conflict. |
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sgolby
Junior Member
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Banksy - The Walled Off Hotel ★★★, by sgolby on May 17, 2021 16:46:43 GMT 1, Reader well played!
However I truly believe that in this and in fact in almost any conflict, memes do more to fan the flames than they do to encourage meaningful discourse and arrive at a nuanced solution with a chance to succeed.
Someone should write a book - from MTV to Twitter - how we lost our youth and our future to sound bite culture.
Reader well played! However I truly believe that in this and in fact in almost any conflict, memes do more to fan the flames than they do to encourage meaningful discourse and arrive at a nuanced solution with a chance to succeed. Someone should write a book - from MTV to Twitter - how we lost our youth and our future to sound bite culture.
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mojo
Junior Member
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May 2014
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Banksy - The Walled Off Hotel ★★★, by mojo on May 17, 2021 17:03:55 GMT 1, I tend to listen to the United Nations opinion and they are very clearly accusing Israel of committing war crimes against the Palestinians and are calling for an immediate ceasefire from both sides. This request has so far been met with a complete refusal from Netanyahu who has vowed to continue the entirely disproportionate attack with full force despite global pleas to stop. Already more than 50 innocent Palestinian children and hundreds of adults have been murdered in the latest Israeli air strikes.
*And yes I've been there, not that that should make any difference to wanting freedom for Palestine.
I tend to listen to the United Nations opinion and they are very clearly accusing Israel of committing war crimes against the Palestinians and are calling for an immediate ceasefire from both sides. This request has so far been met with a complete refusal from Netanyahu who has vowed to continue the entirely disproportionate attack with full force despite global pleas to stop. Already more than 50 innocent Palestinian children and hundreds of adults have been murdered in the latest Israeli air strikes.
*And yes I've been there, not that that should make any difference to wanting freedom for Palestine.
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Reader
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Banksy - The Walled Off Hotel ★★★, by Reader on May 17, 2021 17:07:59 GMT 1, Reader If I may point out some issues with the graphic you posted: 1. Zionism - is and ideology which calls for a jewish state as a reaction to waves of anti semitism throughout history, and it gained immense momentum during the lead up, during, and after world war two when much of the world, including the USA and the UK, turned their back on the jews by setting limits on the numbers of jewish refugees they would accept, by segregating them and by supporting regimes who sought to exterminate them. 2. Palestine - The land the world decided would be more convenient for the Jews to have than repatriating them and accepting them, thereby coercing the British Colonial regime to pull back and abedcate it's responsibility as a governing force. Yes, Israel was the ancestral land of the jews but to believe the Jews had the power tot take it for themselves is willful blindness. It is the same as saying the Jews killed Christ when we all know that it was the Roman's who killed him, fearing the spread of his words. it is a convenient yet wholly dishonest narrative. 3. The Pallestinians are no more indigenous than the Jews, it is for that reason that both sides must learn to live in peace with one another, because they both hold ancestral rights to the land. 4. While criticism of Israel is not anti semitism, the use of that criticism to call for the end of Israel is a terribly tragic argument. It is in fact the exact same argument used by those you are arguing against, however it goes like this. Arabs are Terrorists, Muslims are Radicals, Palestinians are Hamas and therefore terrorists. Instead it would be wise to say something along these lines, Bibi and the rise of Jewish Nationalists and right wing actors have setup a series fo circumstances that have resulted in an apartheid state and should answer for their crimes against humanity. The settler movement is criminal, and the establishment of a reparations counsel should be setup to mediate the land rights issue with the understanding that a two state solution is the only way this can end. Both states will have sovereignty and dominion over their lands. Do not forget that historically Hamas, Hezbollah, and Palestine's Arab neighbors have as much to do with the plight of the Palestinian people as Israel does. 5. Both sides are guilty of Murder, and simplifying it to anti this and anti that is what allows both sides to get away with murder, not only the lack of criticism of the current Israeli government. It is a lack of willingness to deep dive into the complexities and geopolitical realities by most of the world that allows murder to be overlooked on both sides. P.S. look into what happens to people in Gaza that speak out against Hammas, and you will find quite a bit to be angry about. 6. It is absolutely possible for criticism of Israel and Zionism to exist without anti semitic tropes, however that criticism too often devolves into such Anti Semitism. Further, while there are plenty of well intentioned defenders of the Palestinian people too few of them are willing to condemn anti semitic, racist and hate filled rhetoric. Whereas you often see people, such as myself, who take the fight to the hate filled rhetoric spewed by vile characters like Bibi, or Naftali Bennet, or even simply members of my own family on social media. 7. Defund Israel, Defend Palestine, again while seemingly cute, is silly, because it is not that simple. Yes, preconditions to funding do in fact need to be in place. However Defunding Israel will do nothing to deter Israel's apartheid, in fact it would likely only enhance it. Financial leverage at a governmental level allows force to be exerted. The real action needs to be taken in your home countries to push for a peaceful two state solution, not calling for what seems to be the end of one state and the restoration of another. Just my thoughts.
Just to expand on a few of those points...
1. Zionism - is and ideology which calls for a jewish state as a reaction to waves of anti semitism throughout history.
No argument here, other than it calls for an exclusively Jewish ethnostate and the dispacment of ALL Palestinians. Let's not be coy here.
2. ....but to believe the Jews had the power to take it for themselves is willful blindness.
I don't think anyone implied this, so it's a straw man argument and a distraction -as I said, they had very powerful colonial allies and still do of course.
3. On Ancestral rights -countries don't have a "right" to exist. Israel was founded on the crime of ethnic cleansing and the principles of apartheid. They certainly don't have the "right" to their expansionist settler policy.
4. While criticism of Israel is not anti semitism, the use of that criticism to call for the end of Israel is a terribly tragic argument.
Calling for an end to the occupation of your land isn't anti-semitic. Indiginous groups the world over are fighting to roll back settler expansion and gain basic human rights, from Native Americans to Sami and Aboriginals. They and their allies must be allowed to make and voice their arguments without being called "anti-semitic".
5. Both sides are guilty of Murder...
The "both sides" argument is a nonesense. It's like blaming children defending themselves with chairs for being shot in school shootings. Dropping missiles on residential areas and indiscriminantly killing civililans, many of them children, is, according to Amnesty and International law, a war crime. Not that the IDF are known for adhering to this.
6. It is absolutely possible for criticism of Israel and Zionism to exist without anti semitic tropes, however that criticism too often devolves into such Anti Semitism.
So ? There are many Jews and Jewish support organisations in Israel and abroad that are opponents of Zionism. Usually tarred as "self hating Jews". It's perfectly legitimate to critique Zionism no matter how it may "devolve".
7. Defund Israel, Defend Palestine, again while seemingly cute, is silly, because it is not that simple.
Neither is climate change but we should still presumably be conscious consumers and recycle. The Boycott, Divest and Sanction movement is gathering pace, and does in fact also target Governmental funding, bonds and investments. It's also Palestinian lead, so I'm confident they've taken your "Silly" and "Not that simple" arguments into account and decided to act.
bdsmovement.net/get-involved/what-to-boycott
Reader If I may point out some issues with the graphic you posted: 1. Zionism - is and ideology which calls for a jewish state as a reaction to waves of anti semitism throughout history, and it gained immense momentum during the lead up, during, and after world war two when much of the world, including the USA and the UK, turned their back on the jews by setting limits on the numbers of jewish refugees they would accept, by segregating them and by supporting regimes who sought to exterminate them. 2. Palestine - The land the world decided would be more convenient for the Jews to have than repatriating them and accepting them, thereby coercing the British Colonial regime to pull back and abedcate it's responsibility as a governing force. Yes, Israel was the ancestral land of the jews but to believe the Jews had the power tot take it for themselves is willful blindness. It is the same as saying the Jews killed Christ when we all know that it was the Roman's who killed him, fearing the spread of his words. it is a convenient yet wholly dishonest narrative. 3. The Pallestinians are no more indigenous than the Jews, it is for that reason that both sides must learn to live in peace with one another, because they both hold ancestral rights to the land. 4. While criticism of Israel is not anti semitism, the use of that criticism to call for the end of Israel is a terribly tragic argument. It is in fact the exact same argument used by those you are arguing against, however it goes like this. Arabs are Terrorists, Muslims are Radicals, Palestinians are Hamas and therefore terrorists. Instead it would be wise to say something along these lines, Bibi and the rise of Jewish Nationalists and right wing actors have setup a series fo circumstances that have resulted in an apartheid state and should answer for their crimes against humanity. The settler movement is criminal, and the establishment of a reparations counsel should be setup to mediate the land rights issue with the understanding that a two state solution is the only way this can end. Both states will have sovereignty and dominion over their lands. Do not forget that historically Hamas, Hezbollah, and Palestine's Arab neighbors have as much to do with the plight of the Palestinian people as Israel does. 5. Both sides are guilty of Murder, and simplifying it to anti this and anti that is what allows both sides to get away with murder, not only the lack of criticism of the current Israeli government. It is a lack of willingness to deep dive into the complexities and geopolitical realities by most of the world that allows murder to be overlooked on both sides. P.S. look into what happens to people in Gaza that speak out against Hammas, and you will find quite a bit to be angry about. 6. It is absolutely possible for criticism of Israel and Zionism to exist without anti semitic tropes, however that criticism too often devolves into such Anti Semitism. Further, while there are plenty of well intentioned defenders of the Palestinian people too few of them are willing to condemn anti semitic, racist and hate filled rhetoric. Whereas you often see people, such as myself, who take the fight to the hate filled rhetoric spewed by vile characters like Bibi, or Naftali Bennet, or even simply members of my own family on social media. 7. Defund Israel, Defend Palestine, again while seemingly cute, is silly, because it is not that simple. Yes, preconditions to funding do in fact need to be in place. However Defunding Israel will do nothing to deter Israel's apartheid, in fact it would likely only enhance it. Financial leverage at a governmental level allows force to be exerted. The real action needs to be taken in your home countries to push for a peaceful two state solution, not calling for what seems to be the end of one state and the restoration of another. Just my thoughts. Just to expand on a few of those points... 1. Zionism - is and ideology which calls for a jewish state as a reaction to waves of anti semitism throughout history. No argument here, other than it calls for an exclusively Jewish ethnostate and the dispacment of ALL Palestinians. Let's not be coy here. 2. ....but to believe the Jews had the power to take it for themselves is willful blindness. I don't think anyone implied this, so it's a straw man argument and a distraction -as I said, they had very powerful colonial allies and still do of course. 3. On Ancestral rights -countries don't have a "right" to exist. Israel was founded on the crime of ethnic cleansing and the principles of apartheid. They certainly don't have the "right" to their expansionist settler policy. 4. While criticism of Israel is not anti semitism, the use of that criticism to call for the end of Israel is a terribly tragic argument. Calling for an end to the occupation of your land isn't anti-semitic. Indiginous groups the world over are fighting to roll back settler expansion and gain basic human rights, from Native Americans to Sami and Aboriginals. They and their allies must be allowed to make and voice their arguments without being called "anti-semitic". 5. Both sides are guilty of Murder... The "both sides" argument is a nonesense. It's like blaming children defending themselves with chairs for being shot in school shootings. Dropping missiles on residential areas and indiscriminantly killing civililans, many of them children, is, according to Amnesty and International law, a war crime. Not that the IDF are known for adhering to this. 6. It is absolutely possible for criticism of Israel and Zionism to exist without anti semitic tropes, however that criticism too often devolves into such Anti Semitism. So ? There are many Jews and Jewish support organisations in Israel and abroad that are opponents of Zionism. Usually tarred as "self hating Jews". It's perfectly legitimate to critique Zionism no matter how it may "devolve". 7. Defund Israel, Defend Palestine, again while seemingly cute, is silly, because it is not that simple. Neither is climate change but we should still presumably be conscious consumers and recycle. The Boycott, Divest and Sanction movement is gathering pace, and does in fact also target Governmental funding, bonds and investments. It's also Palestinian lead, so I'm confident they've taken your "Silly" and "Not that simple" arguments into account and decided to act. bdsmovement.net/get-involved/what-to-boycott |
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Reader
Junior Member
🗨️ 1,273
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June 2016
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Banksy - The Walled Off Hotel ★★★, by Reader on May 17, 2021 17:31:50 GMT 1, Reader well played! However I truly believe that in this and in fact in almost any conflict, memes do more to fan the flames than they do to encourage meaningful discourse and arrive at a nuanced solution with a chance to succeed. Someone should write a book - from MTV to Twitter - how we lost our youth and our future to sound bite culture.
I think memes are evolving into being highly effecient means of conveying information, just that the "right" are much better at it. A good friend wrote a book a couple of years ago on the theme which is interesting.
Reader well played! However I truly believe that in this and in fact in almost any conflict, memes do more to fan the flames than they do to encourage meaningful discourse and arrive at a nuanced solution with a chance to succeed. Someone should write a book - from MTV to Twitter - how we lost our youth and our future to sound bite culture. They've been saying the same since Guttenberg..Radio, TV, Computer, Smart phone... jazz, rock n roll, gangsta rap :-). I think memes are evolving into being highly effecient means of conveying information, just that the "right" are much better at it. A good friend wrote a book a couple of years ago on the theme which is interesting. |
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sgolby
Junior Member
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November 2012
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Banksy - The Walled Off Hotel ★★★, by sgolby on May 17, 2021 17:51:05 GMT 1, Reader If I may point out some issues with the graphic you posted: 1. Zionism - is and ideology which calls for a jewish state as a reaction to waves of anti semitism throughout history, and it gained immense momentum during the lead up, during, and after world war two when much of the world, including the USA and the UK, turned their back on the jews by setting limits on the numbers of jewish refugees they would accept, by segregating them and by supporting regimes who sought to exterminate them. 2. Palestine - The land the world decided would be more convenient for the Jews to have than repatriating them and accepting them, thereby coercing the British Colonial regime to pull back and abedcate it's responsibility as a governing force. Yes, Israel was the ancestral land of the jews but to believe the Jews had the power tot take it for themselves is willful blindness. It is the same as saying the Jews killed Christ when we all know that it was the Roman's who killed him, fearing the spread of his words. it is a convenient yet wholly dishonest narrative. 3. The Pallestinians are no more indigenous than the Jews, it is for that reason that both sides must learn to live in peace with one another, because they both hold ancestral rights to the land. 4. While criticism of Israel is not anti semitism, the use of that criticism to call for the end of Israel is a terribly tragic argument. It is in fact the exact same argument used by those you are arguing against, however it goes like this. Arabs are Terrorists, Muslims are Radicals, Palestinians are Hamas and therefore terrorists. Instead it would be wise to say something along these lines, Bibi and the rise of Jewish Nationalists and right wing actors have setup a series fo circumstances that have resulted in an apartheid state and should answer for their crimes against humanity. The settler movement is criminal, and the establishment of a reparations counsel should be setup to mediate the land rights issue with the understanding that a two state solution is the only way this can end. Both states will have sovereignty and dominion over their lands. Do not forget that historically Hamas, Hezbollah, and Palestine's Arab neighbors have as much to do with the plight of the Palestinian people as Israel does. 5. Both sides are guilty of Murder, and simplifying it to anti this and anti that is what allows both sides to get away with murder, not only the lack of criticism of the current Israeli government. It is a lack of willingness to deep dive into the complexities and geopolitical realities by most of the world that allows murder to be overlooked on both sides. P.S. look into what happens to people in Gaza that speak out against Hammas, and you will find quite a bit to be angry about. 6. It is absolutely possible for criticism of Israel and Zionism to exist without anti semitic tropes, however that criticism too often devolves into such Anti Semitism. Further, while there are plenty of well intentioned defenders of the Palestinian people too few of them are willing to condemn anti semitic, racist and hate filled rhetoric. Whereas you often see people, such as myself, who take the fight to the hate filled rhetoric spewed by vile characters like Bibi, or Naftali Bennet, or even simply members of my own family on social media. 7. Defund Israel, Defend Palestine, again while seemingly cute, is silly, because it is not that simple. Yes, preconditions to funding do in fact need to be in place. However Defunding Israel will do nothing to deter Israel's apartheid, in fact it would likely only enhance it. Financial leverage at a governmental level allows force to be exerted. The real action needs to be taken in your home countries to push for a peaceful two state solution, not calling for what seems to be the end of one state and the restoration of another. Just my thoughts. Just to expand on a few of those points... 1. Zionism - is and ideology which calls for a jewish state as a reaction to waves of anti semitism throughout history. No argument here, other than it calls for an exclusively Jewish ethnostate and the dispacment of ALL Palestinians. Let's not be coy here. - I am not being Coy, however the use of the word zionist in todays lexicon means Israeli, when in reality I do not believe that the average Jewish Israeli believes in Israel being Jewish ethno state with the displacement of all Palestinians. However I do believe that there should be a Jewish state, after all th other religions have their own states why not the Jews?2. ....but to believe the Jews had the power to take it for themselves is willful blindness. I don't think anyone implied this, so it's a straw man argument and a distraction -as I said, they had very powerful colonial allies and still do of course. YOU COULD NOT BE MORE WRONG. They did not at all have very powerful colonial allies. They had worldwide support for the first time since biblical times. You can go ahead and believe it to be a straw man argument, but you are wrong. Today, they have ONE very powerful ally and it is the US, and I happen to believe as I said that that support should be conditioned on human rights. The Palestinians however have several allies, however none of them do more than pay lip service to them which has been a significant part of the historical problem. Hamas has an incredibly ally in Bibi and the right wing of Knesset, because while not stated, the only way to prevent peace is by claiming you have no partner because of Hamas. 3. On Ancestral rights -countries don't have a "right" to exist. Israel was founded on the crime of ethnic cleansing and the principles of apartheid. They certainly don't have the "right" to their expansionist settler policy. Agreed, Israel was indeed founded as a result of the Ethnic cleansing of the Jews. Here you should really pay attention to history. The rise of the Jewish Apartheid state has coincided with the rise of Likud and Bibi, it did not exist as a powerful movement in Israel until then. Despite that being a convenient narrative. It is indeed currently under the control of a nationalist racist man, and his party whose perverse endgame is the unification of Israel to and the marginalization of all Palestinians. 4. While criticism of Israel is not anti semitism, the use of that criticism to call for the end of Israel is a terribly tragic argument. Calling for an end to the occupation of your land isn't anti-semitic. Indiginous groups the world over are fighting to roll back settler expansion and gain basic human rights, from Native Americans to Sami and Aboriginals. They and their allies must be allowed to make and voice their arguments without being called "anti-semitic". Right but in this case you have the chicken and egg scenario, you name indigenous groups without acknowledging that the Jews were forcefully removed from their homeland which included Israel, so why is it not right for Jews to have a place in their ancestral homeland a just like the other groups you mention. Further, just as you must be allowed to advocate for Palestine without being an Anti-Semite, so to I must be allowed to advocate for Israel without being called a colonialist, zionist, racist, jewish nationalist, supporter of Apartheid. 5. Both sides are guilty of Murder... The "both sides" argument is a nonesense. It's like blaming children defending themselves with chairs for being shot in school shootings. Dropping missiles on residential areas and indiscriminately killing civililans, many of them children, is, according to Amnesty and International law, a war crime. Not that the IDF are known for adhering to this. Again, you are conflating the events of the past 20 years and applying them unilaterally. Do not forget what led to the rise of Bibi, unjustified as his ascension may be. It was terrorism, it was fear mongering based on the murder of Jews and terrorist actions. Again, I agree that Bibi's regime is guilty of war crimes, however don't pretend Hamas or Islamic Jihad are sesame street characters. They are not, they are vicious and stamp out dissent with ruthlessness equal to that of the IDF and the Israeli police.6. It is absolutely possible for criticism of Israel and Zionism to exist without anti semitic tropes, however that criticism too often devolves into such Anti Semitism. So ? There are many Jews and Jewish support organisations in Israel and abroad that are opponents of Zionism. Usually tarred as "self hating Jews". It's perfectly legitimate to critique Zionism no matter how it may "devolve". SO? really? I can give you 6 million reasons why it matters. They are tarred with those names by the same people who you should worry about. The right wingers. However, there is a very real difference between criticism of Israel and Zionsim, and Anti Semitism. Again, I don't allow my criticism of hammas, hezbollah, etc, to ever escalate to anti muslim rhetoric and when I hear anti muslim rhetoric I fight against it because it is severely counter productive. When you say "So?" you lose the argument and give in to weakness and hatred. you can not claim to really be for peace if you are ok with that.7. Defund Israel, Defend Palestine, again while seemingly cute, is silly, because it is not that simple. Neither is climate change but we should still presumably be conscious consumers and recycle. The Boycott, Divest and Sanction movement is gathering pace, and does in fact also target Governmental funding, bonds and investments. It's also Palestinian lead, so I'm confident they've taken your "Silly" and "Not that simple" arguments into account and decided to act. bdsmovement.net/get-involved/what-to-boycottAgain, you are trying to simplify an insanely complex issue. This is not one simply about money. This should be about creating a climate whereby the regional players and international community work together to exert pressure on the right wing of the knesset to change their ways. It is about looking at the Jewish question and Palestinian question with open eyes and trying to construct a solution whereby there is peace. INstead of wasting energy on defunding Israel, perhaps efforts should be made to see where Palestinian funding is going? Perhaps pressure needs to be put on Iran and Qatar to begin using the aid money they send to constructing more than military enforcements. Perhaps political pressure needs to be applied not to destroy Israel but to construct a new Israel and Palestine?
Reader If I may point out some issues with the graphic you posted: 1. Zionism - is and ideology which calls for a jewish state as a reaction to waves of anti semitism throughout history, and it gained immense momentum during the lead up, during, and after world war two when much of the world, including the USA and the UK, turned their back on the jews by setting limits on the numbers of jewish refugees they would accept, by segregating them and by supporting regimes who sought to exterminate them. 2. Palestine - The land the world decided would be more convenient for the Jews to have than repatriating them and accepting them, thereby coercing the British Colonial regime to pull back and abedcate it's responsibility as a governing force. Yes, Israel was the ancestral land of the jews but to believe the Jews had the power tot take it for themselves is willful blindness. It is the same as saying the Jews killed Christ when we all know that it was the Roman's who killed him, fearing the spread of his words. it is a convenient yet wholly dishonest narrative. 3. The Pallestinians are no more indigenous than the Jews, it is for that reason that both sides must learn to live in peace with one another, because they both hold ancestral rights to the land. 4. While criticism of Israel is not anti semitism, the use of that criticism to call for the end of Israel is a terribly tragic argument. It is in fact the exact same argument used by those you are arguing against, however it goes like this. Arabs are Terrorists, Muslims are Radicals, Palestinians are Hamas and therefore terrorists. Instead it would be wise to say something along these lines, Bibi and the rise of Jewish Nationalists and right wing actors have setup a series fo circumstances that have resulted in an apartheid state and should answer for their crimes against humanity. The settler movement is criminal, and the establishment of a reparations counsel should be setup to mediate the land rights issue with the understanding that a two state solution is the only way this can end. Both states will have sovereignty and dominion over their lands. Do not forget that historically Hamas, Hezbollah, and Palestine's Arab neighbors have as much to do with the plight of the Palestinian people as Israel does. 5. Both sides are guilty of Murder, and simplifying it to anti this and anti that is what allows both sides to get away with murder, not only the lack of criticism of the current Israeli government. It is a lack of willingness to deep dive into the complexities and geopolitical realities by most of the world that allows murder to be overlooked on both sides. P.S. look into what happens to people in Gaza that speak out against Hammas, and you will find quite a bit to be angry about. 6. It is absolutely possible for criticism of Israel and Zionism to exist without anti semitic tropes, however that criticism too often devolves into such Anti Semitism. Further, while there are plenty of well intentioned defenders of the Palestinian people too few of them are willing to condemn anti semitic, racist and hate filled rhetoric. Whereas you often see people, such as myself, who take the fight to the hate filled rhetoric spewed by vile characters like Bibi, or Naftali Bennet, or even simply members of my own family on social media. 7. Defund Israel, Defend Palestine, again while seemingly cute, is silly, because it is not that simple. Yes, preconditions to funding do in fact need to be in place. However Defunding Israel will do nothing to deter Israel's apartheid, in fact it would likely only enhance it. Financial leverage at a governmental level allows force to be exerted. The real action needs to be taken in your home countries to push for a peaceful two state solution, not calling for what seems to be the end of one state and the restoration of another. Just my thoughts. Just to expand on a few of those points... 1. Zionism - is and ideology which calls for a jewish state as a reaction to waves of anti semitism throughout history. No argument here, other than it calls for an exclusively Jewish ethnostate and the dispacment of ALL Palestinians. Let's not be coy here. - I am not being Coy, however the use of the word zionist in todays lexicon means Israeli, when in reality I do not believe that the average Jewish Israeli believes in Israel being Jewish ethno state with the displacement of all Palestinians. However I do believe that there should be a Jewish state, after all th other religions have their own states why not the Jews?2. ....but to believe the Jews had the power to take it for themselves is willful blindness. I don't think anyone implied this, so it's a straw man argument and a distraction -as I said, they had very powerful colonial allies and still do of course. YOU COULD NOT BE MORE WRONG. They did not at all have very powerful colonial allies. They had worldwide support for the first time since biblical times. You can go ahead and believe it to be a straw man argument, but you are wrong. Today, they have ONE very powerful ally and it is the US, and I happen to believe as I said that that support should be conditioned on human rights. The Palestinians however have several allies, however none of them do more than pay lip service to them which has been a significant part of the historical problem. Hamas has an incredibly ally in Bibi and the right wing of Knesset, because while not stated, the only way to prevent peace is by claiming you have no partner because of Hamas. 3. On Ancestral rights -countries don't have a "right" to exist. Israel was founded on the crime of ethnic cleansing and the principles of apartheid. They certainly don't have the "right" to their expansionist settler policy. Agreed, Israel was indeed founded as a result of the Ethnic cleansing of the Jews. Here you should really pay attention to history. The rise of the Jewish Apartheid state has coincided with the rise of Likud and Bibi, it did not exist as a powerful movement in Israel until then. Despite that being a convenient narrative. It is indeed currently under the control of a nationalist racist man, and his party whose perverse endgame is the unification of Israel to and the marginalization of all Palestinians. 4. While criticism of Israel is not anti semitism, the use of that criticism to call for the end of Israel is a terribly tragic argument. Calling for an end to the occupation of your land isn't anti-semitic. Indiginous groups the world over are fighting to roll back settler expansion and gain basic human rights, from Native Americans to Sami and Aboriginals. They and their allies must be allowed to make and voice their arguments without being called "anti-semitic". Right but in this case you have the chicken and egg scenario, you name indigenous groups without acknowledging that the Jews were forcefully removed from their homeland which included Israel, so why is it not right for Jews to have a place in their ancestral homeland a just like the other groups you mention. Further, just as you must be allowed to advocate for Palestine without being an Anti-Semite, so to I must be allowed to advocate for Israel without being called a colonialist, zionist, racist, jewish nationalist, supporter of Apartheid. 5. Both sides are guilty of Murder... The "both sides" argument is a nonesense. It's like blaming children defending themselves with chairs for being shot in school shootings. Dropping missiles on residential areas and indiscriminately killing civililans, many of them children, is, according to Amnesty and International law, a war crime. Not that the IDF are known for adhering to this. Again, you are conflating the events of the past 20 years and applying them unilaterally. Do not forget what led to the rise of Bibi, unjustified as his ascension may be. It was terrorism, it was fear mongering based on the murder of Jews and terrorist actions. Again, I agree that Bibi's regime is guilty of war crimes, however don't pretend Hamas or Islamic Jihad are sesame street characters. They are not, they are vicious and stamp out dissent with ruthlessness equal to that of the IDF and the Israeli police.6. It is absolutely possible for criticism of Israel and Zionism to exist without anti semitic tropes, however that criticism too often devolves into such Anti Semitism. So ? There are many Jews and Jewish support organisations in Israel and abroad that are opponents of Zionism. Usually tarred as "self hating Jews". It's perfectly legitimate to critique Zionism no matter how it may "devolve". SO? really? I can give you 6 million reasons why it matters. They are tarred with those names by the same people who you should worry about. The right wingers. However, there is a very real difference between criticism of Israel and Zionsim, and Anti Semitism. Again, I don't allow my criticism of hammas, hezbollah, etc, to ever escalate to anti muslim rhetoric and when I hear anti muslim rhetoric I fight against it because it is severely counter productive. When you say "So?" you lose the argument and give in to weakness and hatred. you can not claim to really be for peace if you are ok with that.7. Defund Israel, Defend Palestine, again while seemingly cute, is silly, because it is not that simple. Neither is climate change but we should still presumably be conscious consumers and recycle. The Boycott, Divest and Sanction movement is gathering pace, and does in fact also target Governmental funding, bonds and investments. It's also Palestinian lead, so I'm confident they've taken your "Silly" and "Not that simple" arguments into account and decided to act. bdsmovement.net/get-involved/what-to-boycottAgain, you are trying to simplify an insanely complex issue. This is not one simply about money. This should be about creating a climate whereby the regional players and international community work together to exert pressure on the right wing of the knesset to change their ways. It is about looking at the Jewish question and Palestinian question with open eyes and trying to construct a solution whereby there is peace. INstead of wasting energy on defunding Israel, perhaps efforts should be made to see where Palestinian funding is going? Perhaps pressure needs to be put on Iran and Qatar to begin using the aid money they send to constructing more than military enforcements. Perhaps political pressure needs to be applied not to destroy Israel but to construct a new Israel and Palestine?
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sgolby
Junior Member
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Banksy - The Walled Off Hotel ★★★, by sgolby on May 17, 2021 17:53:00 GMT 1, Reader well played! However I truly believe that in this and in fact in almost any conflict, memes do more to fan the flames than they do to encourage meaningful discourse and arrive at a nuanced solution with a chance to succeed. Someone should write a book - from MTV to Twitter - how we lost our youth and our future to sound bite culture. They've been saying the same since Guttenberg..Radio, TV, Computer, Smart phone... jazz, rock n roll, gangsta rap :-). I think memes are evolving into being highly effecient means of conveying information, just that the "right" are much better at it. A good friend wrote a book a couple of years ago on the theme which is interesting.
Reader well played! However I truly believe that in this and in fact in almost any conflict, memes do more to fan the flames than they do to encourage meaningful discourse and arrive at a nuanced solution with a chance to succeed. Someone should write a book - from MTV to Twitter - how we lost our youth and our future to sound bite culture. They've been saying the same since Guttenberg..Radio, TV, Computer, Smart phone... jazz, rock n roll, gangsta rap :-). I think memes are evolving into being highly effecient means of conveying information, just that the "right" are much better at it. A good friend wrote a book a couple of years ago on the theme which is interesting. Nope, memes are more often than not factually incorrect and used to enforce opinion and rhetoric. Perhaps if you were to do some unbiased reading and research you would have a better grasp on this issue and the history which has led to where we are. |
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Banksy - The Walled Off Hotel ★★★, by Sebastian Dusseldorf on May 17, 2021 18:04:22 GMT 1, Now adding some migration politics and conspiracy to a debate that got derailed to discussing Memes, while some others struggle to use the expression Holocaust.
I think this thread is adding as much value to the Middle Eastern crises as a proper airstrike.
Now adding some migration politics and conspiracy to a debate that got derailed to discussing Memes, while some others struggle to use the expression Holocaust.
I think this thread is adding as much value to the Middle Eastern crises as a proper airstrike.
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Reader
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Banksy - The Walled Off Hotel ★★★, by Reader on May 17, 2021 18:12:15 GMT 1, They've been saying the same since Guttenberg..Radio, TV, Computer, Smart phone... jazz, rock n roll, gangsta rap :-). I think memes are evolving into being highly effecient means of conveying information, just that the "right" are much better at it. A good friend wrote a book a couple of years ago on the theme which is interesting. Nope, memes are more often than not factually incorrect and used to enforce opinion and rhetoric. Perhaps if you were to do some unbiased reading and research you would have a better grasp on this issue and the history which has led to where we are.
I'd highly recommend the book, builds nicely on Adorno and Horkeimer, both Jewish German scholars, Horkeimer might even have been Orthodox if I remember correctly. Pretty confident that the bias I have on the topic is derived from reading and research and isn't innate. :-)
They've been saying the same since Guttenberg..Radio, TV, Computer, Smart phone... jazz, rock n roll, gangsta rap :-). I think memes are evolving into being highly effecient means of conveying information, just that the "right" are much better at it. A good friend wrote a book a couple of years ago on the theme which is interesting. Nope, memes are more often than not factually incorrect and used to enforce opinion and rhetoric. Perhaps if you were to do some unbiased reading and research you would have a better grasp on this issue and the history which has led to where we are. I'd highly recommend the book, builds nicely on Adorno and Horkeimer, both Jewish German scholars, Horkeimer might even have been Orthodox if I remember correctly. Pretty confident that the bias I have on the topic is derived from reading and research and isn't innate. :-) |
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sgolby
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Banksy - The Walled Off Hotel ★★★, by sgolby on May 17, 2021 18:29:26 GMT 1, Reader, I will check them out.
Reader, I will check them out.
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Reader
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Banksy - The Walled Off Hotel ★★★, by Reader on May 17, 2021 18:42:57 GMT 1, Just to expand on a few of those points... 1. Zionism - is and ideology which calls for a jewish state as a reaction to waves of anti semitism throughout history. No argument here, other than it calls for an exclusively Jewish ethnostate and the dispacment of ALL Palestinians. Let's not be coy here. - I am not being Coy, however the use of the word zionist in todays lexicon means Israeli, when in reality I do not believe that the average Jewish Israeli believes in Israel being Jewish ethno state with the displacement of all Palestinians. However I do believe that there should be a Jewish state, after all th other religions have their own states why not the Jews?2. ....but to believe the Jews had the power to take it for themselves is willful blindness. I don't think anyone implied this, so it's a straw man argument and a distraction -as I said, they had very powerful colonial allies and still do of course. YOU COULD NOT BE MORE WRONG. They did not at all have very powerful colonial allies. They had worldwide support for the first time since biblical times. You can go ahead and believe it to be a straw man argument, but you are wrong. Today, they have ONE very powerful ally and it is the US, and I happen to believe as I said that that support should be conditioned on human rights. The Palestinians however have several allies, however none of them do more than pay lip service to them which has been a significant part of the historical problem. Hamas has an incredibly ally in Bibi and the right wing of Knesset, because while not stated, the only way to prevent peace is by claiming you have no partner because of Hamas. 3. On Ancestral rights -countries don't have a "right" to exist. Israel was founded on the crime of ethnic cleansing and the principles of apartheid. They certainly don't have the "right" to their expansionist settler policy. Agreed, Israel was indeed founded as a result of the Ethnic cleansing of the Jews. Here you should really pay attention to history. The rise of the Jewish Apartheid state has coincided with the rise of Likud and Bibi, it did not exist as a powerful movement in Israel until then. Despite that being a convenient narrative. It is indeed currently under the control of a nationalist racist man, and his party whose perverse endgame is the unification of Israel to and the marginalization of all Palestinians. 4. While criticism of Israel is not anti semitism, the use of that criticism to call for the end of Israel is a terribly tragic argument. Calling for an end to the occupation of your land isn't anti-semitic. Indiginous groups the world over are fighting to roll back settler expansion and gain basic human rights, from Native Americans to Sami and Aboriginals. They and their allies must be allowed to make and voice their arguments without being called "anti-semitic". Right but in this case you have the chicken and egg scenario, you name indigenous groups without acknowledging that the Jews were forcefully removed from their homeland which included Israel, so why is it not right for Jews to have a place in their ancestral homeland a just like the other groups you mention. Further, just as you must be allowed to advocate for Palestine without being an Anti-Semite, so to I must be allowed to advocate for Israel without being called a colonialist, zionist, racist, jewish nationalist, supporter of Apartheid. 5. Both sides are guilty of Murder... The "both sides" argument is a nonesense. It's like blaming children defending themselves with chairs for being shot in school shootings. Dropping missiles on residential areas and indiscriminately killing civililans, many of them children, is, according to Amnesty and International law, a war crime. Not that the IDF are known for adhering to this. Again, you are conflating the events of the past 20 years and applying them unilaterally. Do not forget what led to the rise of Bibi, unjustified as his ascension may be. It was terrorism, it was fear mongering based on the murder of Jews and terrorist actions. Again, I agree that Bibi's regime is guilty of war crimes, however don't pretend Hamas or Islamic Jihad are sesame street characters. They are not, they are vicious and stamp out dissent with ruthlessness equal to that of the IDF and the Israeli police.6. It is absolutely possible for criticism of Israel and Zionism to exist without anti semitic tropes, however that criticism too often devolves into such Anti Semitism. So ? There are many Jews and Jewish support organisations in Israel and abroad that are opponents of Zionism. Usually tarred as "self hating Jews". It's perfectly legitimate to critique Zionism no matter how it may "devolve". SO? really? I can give you 6 million reasons why it matters. They are tarred with those names by the same people who you should worry about. The right wingers. However, there is a very real difference between criticism of Israel and Zionsim, and Anti Semitism. Again, I don't allow my criticism of hammas, hezbollah, etc, to ever escalate to anti muslim rhetoric and when I hear anti muslim rhetoric I fight against it because it is severely counter productive. When you say "So?" you lose the argument and give in to weakness and hatred. you can not claim to really be for peace if you are ok with that.7. Defund Israel, Defend Palestine, again while seemingly cute, is silly, because it is not that simple. Neither is climate change but we should still presumably be conscious consumers and recycle. The Boycott, Divest and Sanction movement is gathering pace, and does in fact also target Governmental funding, bonds and investments. It's also Palestinian lead, so I'm confident they've taken your "Silly" and "Not that simple" arguments into account and decided to act. bdsmovement.net/get-involved/what-to-boycottAgain, you are trying to simplify an insanely complex issue. This is not one simply about money. This should be about creating a climate whereby the regional players and international community work together to exert pressure on the right wing of the knesset to change their ways. It is about looking at the Jewish question and Palestinian question with open eyes and trying to construct a solution whereby there is peace. INstead of wasting energy on defunding Israel, perhaps efforts should be made to see where Palestinian funding is going? Perhaps pressure needs to be put on Iran and Qatar to begin using the aid money they send to constructing more than military enforcements. Perhaps political pressure needs to be applied not to destroy Israel but to construct a new Israel and Palestine?
You should be outraged at the behaviour of Israel in provoking the current state of affairs. The underlying causes are obvious, 40 percent of the population in Jerusalem are Palestinians who are subject to a separate set of draconian laws.
Recent restrictions made it incredibly difficult for Palestinians to gather at al-Aqsa during Ramadam. People protested and the Police immediatly turned the place into a war zone, with stun grenades and brutal arrests. They then used "Skunk Water" to flush the site, turning an holy place into stinking disaster area. The humiliation became total when the police let ultranationalists dance with Israeli flags in front of the Palestinians. How much oppression and humiliation does Israel think they can get away with without people reacting? Around the world, and in Gaza? This is the context. And then, after rockets have been fired from Gaza, where two million people have been imprisoned for almost 14 years, people are asking, "But why are they firing rockets?"...and people like yourself are all over the internet saying "why can't Israel exist" "what about Anti Semitism", "it's too complex for a meme".. etc etc. Right now, it's far more important to deal with the matters at hand, and we should all be condemning the actions of Israel without fear of being branded anti-semitic. Children are being blown to pieces.
Times are changing and the powers that be are going to have to change the record.. this one's all played out now. It's been quite interesting seeing the shift of public opinion, hopefully the tide is turning and we can exert enough pressure to have Biden and co demand significant policy changes.
Just to expand on a few of those points... 1. Zionism - is and ideology which calls for a jewish state as a reaction to waves of anti semitism throughout history. No argument here, other than it calls for an exclusively Jewish ethnostate and the dispacment of ALL Palestinians. Let's not be coy here. - I am not being Coy, however the use of the word zionist in todays lexicon means Israeli, when in reality I do not believe that the average Jewish Israeli believes in Israel being Jewish ethno state with the displacement of all Palestinians. However I do believe that there should be a Jewish state, after all th other religions have their own states why not the Jews?2. ....but to believe the Jews had the power to take it for themselves is willful blindness. I don't think anyone implied this, so it's a straw man argument and a distraction -as I said, they had very powerful colonial allies and still do of course. YOU COULD NOT BE MORE WRONG. They did not at all have very powerful colonial allies. They had worldwide support for the first time since biblical times. You can go ahead and believe it to be a straw man argument, but you are wrong. Today, they have ONE very powerful ally and it is the US, and I happen to believe as I said that that support should be conditioned on human rights. The Palestinians however have several allies, however none of them do more than pay lip service to them which has been a significant part of the historical problem. Hamas has an incredibly ally in Bibi and the right wing of Knesset, because while not stated, the only way to prevent peace is by claiming you have no partner because of Hamas. 3. On Ancestral rights -countries don't have a "right" to exist. Israel was founded on the crime of ethnic cleansing and the principles of apartheid. They certainly don't have the "right" to their expansionist settler policy. Agreed, Israel was indeed founded as a result of the Ethnic cleansing of the Jews. Here you should really pay attention to history. The rise of the Jewish Apartheid state has coincided with the rise of Likud and Bibi, it did not exist as a powerful movement in Israel until then. Despite that being a convenient narrative. It is indeed currently under the control of a nationalist racist man, and his party whose perverse endgame is the unification of Israel to and the marginalization of all Palestinians. 4. While criticism of Israel is not anti semitism, the use of that criticism to call for the end of Israel is a terribly tragic argument. Calling for an end to the occupation of your land isn't anti-semitic. Indiginous groups the world over are fighting to roll back settler expansion and gain basic human rights, from Native Americans to Sami and Aboriginals. They and their allies must be allowed to make and voice their arguments without being called "anti-semitic". Right but in this case you have the chicken and egg scenario, you name indigenous groups without acknowledging that the Jews were forcefully removed from their homeland which included Israel, so why is it not right for Jews to have a place in their ancestral homeland a just like the other groups you mention. Further, just as you must be allowed to advocate for Palestine without being an Anti-Semite, so to I must be allowed to advocate for Israel without being called a colonialist, zionist, racist, jewish nationalist, supporter of Apartheid. 5. Both sides are guilty of Murder... The "both sides" argument is a nonesense. It's like blaming children defending themselves with chairs for being shot in school shootings. Dropping missiles on residential areas and indiscriminately killing civililans, many of them children, is, according to Amnesty and International law, a war crime. Not that the IDF are known for adhering to this. Again, you are conflating the events of the past 20 years and applying them unilaterally. Do not forget what led to the rise of Bibi, unjustified as his ascension may be. It was terrorism, it was fear mongering based on the murder of Jews and terrorist actions. Again, I agree that Bibi's regime is guilty of war crimes, however don't pretend Hamas or Islamic Jihad are sesame street characters. They are not, they are vicious and stamp out dissent with ruthlessness equal to that of the IDF and the Israeli police.6. It is absolutely possible for criticism of Israel and Zionism to exist without anti semitic tropes, however that criticism too often devolves into such Anti Semitism. So ? There are many Jews and Jewish support organisations in Israel and abroad that are opponents of Zionism. Usually tarred as "self hating Jews". It's perfectly legitimate to critique Zionism no matter how it may "devolve". SO? really? I can give you 6 million reasons why it matters. They are tarred with those names by the same people who you should worry about. The right wingers. However, there is a very real difference between criticism of Israel and Zionsim, and Anti Semitism. Again, I don't allow my criticism of hammas, hezbollah, etc, to ever escalate to anti muslim rhetoric and when I hear anti muslim rhetoric I fight against it because it is severely counter productive. When you say "So?" you lose the argument and give in to weakness and hatred. you can not claim to really be for peace if you are ok with that.7. Defund Israel, Defend Palestine, again while seemingly cute, is silly, because it is not that simple. Neither is climate change but we should still presumably be conscious consumers and recycle. The Boycott, Divest and Sanction movement is gathering pace, and does in fact also target Governmental funding, bonds and investments. It's also Palestinian lead, so I'm confident they've taken your "Silly" and "Not that simple" arguments into account and decided to act. bdsmovement.net/get-involved/what-to-boycottAgain, you are trying to simplify an insanely complex issue. This is not one simply about money. This should be about creating a climate whereby the regional players and international community work together to exert pressure on the right wing of the knesset to change their ways. It is about looking at the Jewish question and Palestinian question with open eyes and trying to construct a solution whereby there is peace. INstead of wasting energy on defunding Israel, perhaps efforts should be made to see where Palestinian funding is going? Perhaps pressure needs to be put on Iran and Qatar to begin using the aid money they send to constructing more than military enforcements. Perhaps political pressure needs to be applied not to destroy Israel but to construct a new Israel and Palestine?
Israel cannot expect peace as long as it pursues apartheid and ethnic cleansing, that's a fact. Everything you mention, the path to peace, whether one state or two state solutions, has been tabled for decades. Israel has proved time and time again, that this isn't in fact what they desire, certainly not from a Zionist perspective. It's a ruse. And whilst we "discuss" it, the ethnic cleansing continues apace. Defending illegal and immoral attacks on innocent civillians, literally defending war crimes based on some abstract notion that Israel has a "right" to exist as an ethnostate isn't going to hold up any longer. This is a battle between a colonizer and the colonized. It is not about two equal sides fighting for a piece of land. We have a colonial power and a native people who are fighting against an ethnic cleansing that has been going on since 1948. You should be outraged at the behaviour of Israel in provoking the current state of affairs. The underlying causes are obvious, 40 percent of the population in Jerusalem are Palestinians who are subject to a separate set of draconian laws. Recent restrictions made it incredibly difficult for Palestinians to gather at al-Aqsa during Ramadam. People protested and the Police immediatly turned the place into a war zone, with stun grenades and brutal arrests. They then used "Skunk Water" to flush the site, turning an holy place into stinking disaster area. The humiliation became total when the police let ultranationalists dance with Israeli flags in front of the Palestinians. How much oppression and humiliation does Israel think they can get away with without people reacting? Around the world, and in Gaza? This is the context. And then, after rockets have been fired from Gaza, where two million people have been imprisoned for almost 14 years, people are asking, "But why are they firing rockets?"...and people like yourself are all over the internet saying "why can't Israel exist" "what about Anti Semitism", "it's too complex for a meme".. etc etc. Right now, it's far more important to deal with the matters at hand, and we should all be condemning the actions of Israel without fear of being branded anti-semitic. Children are being blown to pieces. Times are changing and the powers that be are going to have to change the record.. this one's all played out now. It's been quite interesting seeing the shift of public opinion, hopefully the tide is turning and we can exert enough pressure to have Biden and co demand significant policy changes. |
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sgolby
Junior Member
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Banksy - The Walled Off Hotel ★★★, by sgolby on May 17, 2021 19:20:35 GMT 1, Reader, the difference between my outrage and yours is that I am not the one preaching the destruction of a country because it has lost its way. If that were the case we should/could call for the downfall of the US, Australia, the UK, Belgium, France, India, Pakistan, Palestine, and the list goes on and on and on. Don't fool yourself into believing you are the righteous and the rest of us are lost.
Good luck to you, I am done trying to have a dialogue with someone who is hell bent on viewing the world through a narrow lens. One day, hopefully you will be able to accept that multiple things can be true and that the answer is often an amalgamation of ideas and not one certain set of facts.
Perhaps read this and a book called the lemon tree by sandy toland, perhaps read differing opinions on this crisis and add some much needed history to your informational diet and you'll be able to formulate an opinion which doesn't read like diet prada in long form.
www.nytimes.com/2021/05/16/opinion/israel-netanyahu-hamas.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage
Reader, the difference between my outrage and yours is that I am not the one preaching the destruction of a country because it has lost its way. If that were the case we should/could call for the downfall of the US, Australia, the UK, Belgium, France, India, Pakistan, Palestine, and the list goes on and on and on. Don't fool yourself into believing you are the righteous and the rest of us are lost. Good luck to you, I am done trying to have a dialogue with someone who is hell bent on viewing the world through a narrow lens. One day, hopefully you will be able to accept that multiple things can be true and that the answer is often an amalgamation of ideas and not one certain set of facts. Perhaps read this and a book called the lemon tree by sandy toland, perhaps read differing opinions on this crisis and add some much needed history to your informational diet and you'll be able to formulate an opinion which doesn't read like diet prada in long form. www.nytimes.com/2021/05/16/opinion/israel-netanyahu-hamas.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage
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