[John The Badgers]

Cant for the life of me fathom the Bonham's site, can someone list the results?

[fusion0001]

I updated overall numbers and all-in results on banksy-value. Overall market this month is down around 10%, while unsigned a bit more than 20%. Not a great day to be holding lots of unsigned.

I rarely comment the value discussion here more subjectively, but my 2 cents is that there is really not much difference in long-term return between holding signed and unsigned prints of same edition. The value of signed vs unsigned of same edition have since forever been between linked by 2.0x - 2.5x multiple and I hardly see a reason for this multiple to be broken. Over the short-term however we have seen in 2020 the multiple go down to 1.5x and I think everyone who has looked at the market for long enough had a good gut-feeling that this will correct back eventually, which is happening now with the overall market correction in parallel. Getting back to a historical ratio of closer to 2.0-2.5 would not be surprising (run-of-the-mill signed prints at 50-60k and unsigned of same edition at 20-25k).

The above of course does not hold for the more "special" pieces that are more disconnected from the rest of the market and hence more resilient to these kind of situations.

[John The Badgers]

Thank you fusion0001.

Appreciate the comments.

Excuse my ignorance everyone, but when a lot is 'passed' in an auction, what does that mean?

[als33]

Apr 28, 2021 18:53:22 GMT 1 John The Badgers said:

Thank you fusion0001.

Appreciate the comments.

Excuse my ignorance everyone, but when a lot is 'passed' in an auction, what does that mean?

It means the reserve wasn't met and the item didn't sell.

[startimeash]

Apr 28, 2021 18:53:22 GMT 1 John The Badgers said:

Thank you fusion0001.

Appreciate the comments.

Excuse my ignorance everyone, but when a lot is 'passed' in an auction, what does that mean?

It means that the seller had specified a minimum price that they'd accept, which is the reserve. If the bids don't make it to that level then it is not sold, so "passed"

[John The Badgers]

Thanks Als33 and startimeash, didn't realise you could specify a 'minimum value' at auction.

I tried to follow the auction as I was interested in the TW. I have one, and wanted an idea for my insurance as I have to specify value on the policy.

Can anyone tell me what it got too via the bidding?

[theclash]

So looks like from the peak earlier this year unsigned Banksy are off 30-50% after a huge run up.

How do people think about this with respect to other rapidly rising artists values, does it make you think twice about lifting £5-15k prints in hot artists?

[doncarlos45]

Apr 28, 2021 17:47:46 GMT 1 Dexter Bulldog said:

hirst valium is a $35k print now?
i remember these being about 1/3 the price a few years ago

I may have mentioned this in a previous thread on another auction but yes ..recent Uk auction sales of Valium have been in the £20k’s

Not too sure of the driver but Valium I think was the first spot picture he did.

[artlife11]

Apr 28, 2021 19:08:20 GMT 1 John The Badgers said:

Thanks Als33 and startimeash, didn't realise you could specify a 'minimum value' at auction.

I tried to follow the auction as I was interested in the TW. I have one, and wanted an idea for my insurance as I have to specify value on the policy.

Can anyone tell me what it got too via the bidding?

£28k unsold , I think it didn’t reach reserve

[Sundowner]

Apr 28, 2021 18:43:34 GMT 1 fusion0001 said:

I updated overall numbers and all-in results on banksy-value. Overall market this month is down around 10%, while unsigned a bit more than 20%. Not a great day to be holding lots of unsigned.

I rarely comment the value discussion here more subjectively, but my 2 cents is that there is really not much difference in long-term return between holding signed and unsigned prints of same edition. The value of signed vs unsigned of same edition have since forever been between linked by 2.0x - 2.5x multiple and I hardly see a reason for this multiple to be broken. Over the short-term however we have seen in 2020 the multiple go down to 1.5x and I think everyone who has looked at the market for long enough had a good gut-feeling that this will correct back eventually, which is happening now with the overall market correction in parallel. Getting back to a historical ratio of closer to 2.0-2.5 would not be surprising (run-of-the-mill signed prints at 50-60k and unsigned of same edition at 20-25k).

The above of course does not hold for the more "special" pieces that are more disconnected from the rest of the market and hence more resilient to these kind of situations.

I remember the time 3/4 years ago when signed were roughly 3 x unsigned or even slightly more

[theclash]

Apr 28, 2021 19:51:15 GMT 1 Sundowner said:

Apr 28, 2021 18:43:34 GMT 1 fusion0001 said:

I updated overall numbers and all-in results on banksy-value. Overall market this month is down around 10%, while unsigned a bit more than 20%. Not a great day to be holding lots of unsigned.

I rarely comment the value discussion here more subjectively, but my 2 cents is that there is really not much difference in long-term return between holding signed and unsigned prints of same edition. The value of signed vs unsigned of same edition have since forever been between linked by 2.0x - 2.5x multiple and I hardly see a reason for this multiple to be broken. Over the short-term however we have seen in 2020 the multiple go down to 1.5x and I think everyone who has looked at the market for long enough had a good gut-feeling that this will correct back eventually, which is happening now with the overall market correction in parallel. Getting back to a historical ratio of closer to 2.0-2.5 would not be surprising (run-of-the-mill signed prints at 50-60k and unsigned of same edition at 20-25k).

The above of course does not hold for the more "special" pieces that are more disconnected from the rest of the market and hence more resilient to these kind of situations.

I remember the time 3/4 years ago when signed were roughly 3 x unsigned or even slightly more

I remember a time 15 years ago when signed were 50% more than unsigned.

[dukeofwybourne]

Apr 28, 2021 19:53:03 GMT 1 theclash said:

Apr 28, 2021 19:51:15 GMT 1 Sundowner said:

I remember the time 3/4 years ago when signed were roughly 3 x unsigned or even slightly more

I remember a time 15 years ago when signed were 50% more than unsigned.

 Exactly, 50 quid or 75 quid

[Dexter Bulldog]

Apr 28, 2021 19:32:02 GMT 1 doncarlos45 said:

Apr 28, 2021 17:47:46 GMT 1 Dexter Bulldog said:

hirst valium is a $35k print now?
i remember these being about 1/3 the price a few years ago

I may have mentioned this in a previous thread on another auction but yes ..recent Uk auction sales of Valium have been in the £20k’s

Not too sure of the driver but Valium I think was the first spot picture he did.

Wow interesting. The was on the fence and may have even been sub $10k. I guess there were a lot of fakes/faded sigs iirc.

[Gunny]

Banksy prints have took dips in the past. To put it into perspective - Bonhams sold a Kate Moss in Feb 2008 for £92k. Then there was a bit of a crisis in 2009 - my friend picked one up for 26k - it happens. However, what has not happened so much in the past is a 3x increase in one year! The problem then is that there has been a massive glut of Banksy only auctions for the same prints time after time, people cashing in and i don't blame them. This is what has turned these prints on a downward trend. Even GWB has gone down, who would have thought that? However, there has been one of these in pretty much every Banksy auction or auction with Banksy's in the last year. What we havn't seen at auction is many CYW's and Nola's for example, or Love Hurts (ed of 16), or Grappling Hooks, or many editioned canvases. I would pretty much say that the market for all things that are decent and havn't been overdone in the last year will do well and continue to hold or rise.............. I could be wrong but this is how i see it.........

[Jeezuz Jones Snr]

Apr 28, 2021 21:25:11 GMT 1 Gunny said:

Banksy prints have took dips in the past. To put it into perspective - Bonhams sold a Kate Moss in Feb 2008 for £92k. Then there was a bit of a crisis in 2009 - my friend picked one up for 26k - it happens. However, what has not happened so much in the past is a 3x increase in one year! The problem then is that there has been a massive glut of Banksy only auctions for the same prints time after time, people cashing in and i don't blame them. This is what has turned these prints on a downward trend. Even Girl With Balloon has gone down, who would have thought that? However, there has been one of these in pretty much every Banksy auction or auction with Banksy's in the last year. What we havn't seen at auction is many Choose Your Weapon's and Nola's for example, or Love Hurts (ed of 16), or Grappling Hooks, or many editioned canvases. I would pretty much say that the market for all things that are decent and havn't been overdone in the last year will do well and continue to hold or rise.............. I could be wrong but this is how i see it.........

Good post 👍 and your friend got a nice deal on that Kate 👍.

[Ruff star]

did you sell crap?

Apr 28, 2021 17:33:55 GMT 1 LJCal said:

Apr 28, 2021 17:24:30 GMT 1 tab1 said:

This was said 10 years ago and look at unsigned print values now.
Truth is, no one knows how the market will turn out and especially with the pandemic looking likely for another two years what type effect it will have on all global markets, risky if buying now? Who knows?

No one knows anything for certain but I'm confident people will be dumping crap unsigned prints because
they're crap and now their values are falling people will start using their eyes and not their ears to buy. There are also literally 1000s of them, if you scratch away the venner of scarcity with collectibles and fine art like what has happened in recent months the item will stuggle to recover it's desirability and value. 

[LJCal]

Apr 28, 2021 23:02:26 GMT 1 Ruff star said:

did you sell crap?

Apr 28, 2021 17:33:55 GMT 1 LJCal said:

No one knows anything for certain but I'm confident people will be dumping crap unsigned prints because
they're crap and now their values are falling people will start using their eyes and not their ears to buy. There are also literally 1000s of them, if you scratch away the venner of scarcity with collectibles and fine art like what has happened in recent months the item will stuggle to recover it's desirability and value. 

Some crap yes, I sold some decent ones too, taking profit was absolutely the right thing to do after the hysteria of last year. Not all unsigned prints are crap but plenty are and they seemed to start selling for similar prices to the historically more sought after prints. There are some pretty rubish signed prints going for big money too. As I said people were buying anything with a COA and not being particulary discerning about quality, those type of speculators are going to feel the pain. Anyone who actually really enjoys Banksy's art should be happy that reality is setting in, they can now hopefully secure pieces for sensible money and not have to obsess over value everytime there is an auction. 

[met]

Apr 28, 2021 18:53:22 GMT 1 John The Badgers said:

Thank you fusion0001.

Appreciate the comments.

Excuse my ignorance everyone, but when a lot is 'passed' in an auction, what does that mean?

Apr 28, 2021 19:47:32 GMT 1 artlife11 said:

Apr 28, 2021 19:08:20 GMT 1 John The Badgers said:

Thanks Als33 and startimeash, didn't realise you could specify a 'minimum value' at auction.

I tried to follow the auction as I was interested in the TW. I have one, and wanted an idea for my insurance as I have to specify value on the policy.

Can anyone tell me what it got too via the bidding?

£28k unsold , I think it didn’t reach reserve

As previously clarified by als33 and startimeash, the reserve is the minimum price at which the consignor is willing to sell their consignment. This figure is agreed in advance with the auction house. A lot is passed at auction when it doesn't sell due to bidding having failed to reach the reserve.

When it exists, the reserve is typically set at either (a) the low estimate, or (b) one or two bidding increments below. It is never higher than the low estimate.


With the Turf War, the reserve looks to have been the same as the low estimate of £30,000. This can be deduced from the fact there was no sale at £28,000 (the Bonhams standard bidding increment that immediately precedes £30,000).






Now here's the important part, addressing a mistaken assumption often made by casual observers at auction:

Unless people in the room were actually seen bidding, it is unwise to attribute any weight to bid amounts that don't hit the reserve. Those numbers may be dangerously misleading, giving false impressions about collector interest and market value.

The reason comes down to chandelier bidding*. It is common practice for auction houses to place chandelier bids — i.e. fake bids that can legally yet artificially push an item's price up to one increment short of the reserve.



In this instance, all the bids on the Turf War could technically have been placed by Bonhams itself, rather than actual bidders.

And so, unless verified as genuine, the bidding levels up to the final failed bid of £28,000 cannot reliably be used as a basis for estimating the current value of your own unsigned Turf War print.**

[njr911]

Too many prints, at the wrong time. People are thinking about getting back to Mustique as lockdown ends. They have seen enough of the four walls at home.

[John The Badgers]

Thank you for the above Met, an interesting point, appreciate the detail, wasn't aware of this 'technique', but can see why it would be utilised, all noted.

[theclash]

Apr 29, 2021 16:04:34 GMT 1 njr911 said:

Too many prints, at the wrong time. People are thinking about getting back to Mustique as lockdown ends. They have seen enough of the four walls at home.

Can’t beat the cocktails at Firefly, can lead to an interesting trip back to the boat

[Sundowner]

Looks like Bonhams have their first Banksy-only online sale next month as well - www.bonhams.com/auctions/27203. Here's hoping for some more interesting prints than we have seen elsewhere recently....

[singerstu]

May 14, 2021 21:07:55 GMT 1 Sundowner said:

Looks like Bonhams have their first Banksy-only online sale next month as well - www.bonhams.com/auctions/27203. Here's hoping for some more interesting prints than we have seen elsewhere recently....

If the preview is any indication it’s the same stuff we have seen over and over again this year. 

[Deleted]

You know it will be the same old prints.

Top prints are in good hands by now.

[Octopus UK]

Twenty nine lots www.bonhams.com/auctions/27203/

[JFCC]

I am not a fan of Bonhams but praise where praise is due, an excellent catalogue. It has variation and a lot of pieces that have not been iat auction for a while.

Other than GWB I’d expect there to be good interest with low estimates to attract good bidding. Just my view but good viewing!!

[LJCal]

A few nice pieces but some of the starting bids are too high given where deals are being done.

[dawn2006]

I've put my unsigned barcode in this sale . Its such a lovely image and we have had enjoyed it for many years but.... decided the time was right to sell as the insurances are so high now for Banksys work. We have put a lower estimate than Bonhams suggested to get interest and really hope it goes to somebody who will love it as much as we did .Fingers crossed .
I've had great advice from members of this forum over the years.

www.bonhams.com/auctions/27203/lot/16/?category=list&length=12&page=2

[18921892]

Sothebys have just added a Barcode signed at a very reasonable price in their private sale division.

[Deleted]

Jun 22, 2021 13:02:04 GMT 1 18921892 said:

Sothebys have just added a Barcode signed at a very reasonable price in their private sale division.

How much?