[Deleted]

Love it.

[johnnyh]

Suppose one thing that everybody will agree on is that although ridiculously exspensive (particularly now with the high dollar) this piece still works and is as relevant today as it was 11 years ago when it was first produced.

So although simple it is a classic piece of Banksy that will sit happily and quietly on any wall.......until it's magic is released when it will shout and dominate a room.

suppose the other thing is Wearology I hope you spent that £500 well!!!

[Jeezuz Jones Snr]

[Deleted]

Nov 1, 2014 10:09:03 GMT 1 johnnyh said:

Suppose one thing that everybody will agree on is that although ridiculously exspensive (particularly now with the high dollar) this piece still works and is as relevant today as it was 11 years ago when it was first produced.

So although simple it is a classic piece of Banksy that will sit happily and quietly on any wall.......until it's magic is released when it will shout and dominate a room.

suppose the other thing is Wearology I hope you spent that £500 well!!!

This sentence has made me think, an achievement in itself. Is a work of Art, be it an old master / Contemporary / good or bad etc., just more 'stuff' when it is alone in a room and unwatched by anyone?, how does it know it is Art?, its us that decide that is it?.

[Dr Plip]

Nov 1, 2014 10:38:10 GMT 1 LonelyFarmer said:

Nov 1, 2014 10:09:03 GMT 1 johnnyh said:

Suppose one thing that everybody will agree on is that although ridiculously exspensive (particularly now with the high dollar) this piece still works and is as relevant today as it was 11 years ago when it was first produced.

So although simple it is a classic piece of Banksy that will sit happily and quietly on any wall.......until it's magic is released when it will shout and dominate a room.

suppose the other thing is Wearology I hope you spent that £500 well!!!

This sentence has made me think, an achievement in itself. Is a work of Art, be it an old master / Contemporary / good or bad etc., just more 'stuff' when it is alone in a room and unwatched by anyone?, how does it know it is Art?, its us that decide that is it?.

Your post made me think as well. Is art only art once we say it's art? Another thought; If something (anything) is on a canvas, is it automatically considered to be art?

I think if aliens came here, we'd need to point out what art is and what's decoration. And what's advertising. How would an alien know the difference between a still life with fruit and a McDonald's McMuffin advert?

[johnnyh]

Must say I do like art that stirs a conversation and divides, causes an opinion as it's as if it has a personality and a point of view.
Was really talking about it like that as it were.
I just thought it would be on your wall as a normal piece of art in many ways not that good of one but when people were there it would captivate and generate the type of conversation we have just had. Take your normal conversation to somewhere else where ever that is. It kind of pulls you in.
He has turned a flag into an opinionated piece of art in a quiet and simple way. Not sure if it's the same for non UK market so odd its on paddle priced in dollars

[Dr Plip]

Oct 31, 2014 22:17:13 GMT 1 Black Apple Art said:

paddle8.com/work/banksy/43105-people-who-enjoy-waving-flags/

People Who Enjoy Waving Flags, 2003
Spraypaint on nylon flag
60.6 x 34.8 in (153.92 x 88.39 cm)
Framed
Accompanied by COA from Pest Control

This is one flag that will never be waved.

[hnkpnk]

Waive the flag!

[Deleted]

Immigration isn't a problem in the UK, Ignorance is.

The Daily Show did an insightful piece on it this week.

[South Bound]

Nov 1, 2014 14:06:51 GMT 1 @martedanielsen said:

Immigration isn't a problem in the UK, Ignorance is.

The Daily Show did an insightful piece on it this week.

Brilliant, hadn't seen that one. Thanks for sharing!

[Deleted]

Nov 1, 2014 14:06:51 GMT 1 @martedanielsen said:

Immigration isn't a problem in the UK, Ignorance is.

The Daily Show did an insightful piece on it this week.

I am in complete agreement, this country (UK) was built on immigration. Change though, is often best managed in a measured way. Society is not static, yet society needs time to be able to incorporate and accept change. Many areas in the UK have seen huge rises in immigrant populations, and feel swamped or threatened by this. This is not the fault of people trying to create better lives, education for their kids etc, but a failure of the current system. It is deeply unfortunate to say the least, that this mismanagement has fed into far right vitriol and rhetoric. This failure which UKIP, BNP etc exploit, has lead to the whole immigration issue becoming terribly polarized now. It is frightening, and the prospect and consequences of a U-Con Government genuinely scares me.

[Deleted]

paddle8.com/work/banksy/43105-people-who-enjoy-waving-flags/

""Description

In “People Who Enjoy Waving Flags,” Banksy comments on and criticizes the nationalistic tendency to show ones pride through the excessive waving of flags. The inclusion of an anti-nationalistic quote on the English’s Saint George’s Cross, which has been rotated 90 degrees,

 is Banksy’s way of disparaging his country’s premier national symbol and criticizing his fellow countrymen for their culturalist tendencies to blindly follow their government’s advice and habits.

Banksy applies his bleak message to the popular and heavily ideal-laden imagery of the national flag in order ensure his critique hits its intended target. "

Sometimes Banksy just talks shit.

 Thats just my opinion on this piece.

He's entitled to his opinion and like the man in the pub or a left wing Alf Garnett.

The difference is Banksy puts his views on his art and it's mainly slogans. Just like marketing and margarine ads.

      I cant believe it's not better

[Deleted]

Nov 1, 2014 15:01:36 GMT 1 @lordsofpork said:

Nov 1, 2014 14:33:21 GMT 1 @elviswarhol said:

Sometimes Banksy just talks s**t.

Banksy quite obviously didn't write the description.

I was being subversive. Banksy likes subversive.

I was also referring to the writing on the flag.

[Wearology]

Nov 1, 2014 10:38:10 GMT 1 LonelyFarmer said:

Nov 1, 2014 10:09:03 GMT 1 johnnyh said:

Suppose one thing that everybody will agree on is that although ridiculously exspensive (particularly now with the high dollar) this piece still works and is as relevant today as it was 11 years ago when it was first produced.

So although simple it is a classic piece of Banksy that will sit happily and quietly on any wall.......until it's magic is released when it will shout and dominate a room.

suppose the other thing is Wearology I hope you spent that £500 well!!!

* It was 500 US Dollars not 500 Pounds which makes it that much more painful.  

This sentence has made me think, an achievement in itself. Is a work of Art, be it an old master / Contemporary / good or bad etc., just more 'stuff' when it is alone in a room and unwatched by anyone?, how does it know it is Art?, its us that decide that is it?.

[johnnyh]

$500 then no sympathy at all Wearology!!!!! ........that's just a disaster. But at least you were there !!!! Much later than that I was at an auction and an original Banksy came up did not do it also .....big mistake

But there you go.... My thoughts are with you on this terrible thread.....Your a mod delete it!!!

[Winter]

Banksy has done a few of these, I've seen a Union Jack and there's possibly a US flag version. I think each is an edition of 5.
Sorry I couldn't be more vague.

*flags on cats don't count

[kendo]

It's not flags! It's flegs!!

[johnnyh]

Nov 1, 2014 14:06:51 GMT 1 @martedanielsen said:

Immigration isn't a problem in the UK, Ignorance is.

The Daily Show did an insightful piece on it this week.

Mmmmmm think this posting actually highlights your own ignorance.
immigration is about the movement of people and the legal right of abode. Much of the issues in the UK are not about the individuals but more to do with the miss management of the process and the rights to free movement / benefits, services across the EU.
Brittain is one of the most multicultural societies in the world as well as one of the countries that protects its population from any form of racial . Now along way from perfect however along way from your daft vid and comments.
You might want to read some British politics and understand some of the issues, the reasoning behind people's discontent with successive governments mismanagement of the immigration process. People in general are blaming the government not the immigrants rights to better themselves

[johnnyh]

What a load of bollocks

Just usual lowest common denominator with you as usual

It's not immigration its ignorance....find a couple of rednecks from the US bang all solved. It just like the blame the poor immigrants argument the right uses. You just highlight your own lack of intelligence

You show your ignorance as your stupid little rants and video deflects the responsibility of the government whatever it's pursuasion to manage the process.
Shouting I am UKIP further enhances and highlights your lack of knowledge and intelligence. Shout loud and therefore I must be a UKIP supporter or racist etc nothing could be further from the truth.

its not about no foriegners where ever they come from etc its about the management of a process something that is not being done successfully at the moment. So pigeon holing everyone as either ignorant or racist is plainly just silly. 

[Deleted]

Nov 2, 2014 11:18:46 GMT 1 johnnyh said:

What a load of bollocks

Just usual lowest common denominator with you as usual

It's not immigration its ignorance....find a couple of rednecks from the US bang all solved. It just like the blame the poor immigrants argument the right uses. You just highlight your own lack of intelligence

You show your ignorance as your stupid little rants and video deflects the responsibility of the government whatever it's pursuasion to manage the process.
Shouting I am UKIP further enhances and highlights your lack of knowledge and intelligence. Shout loud and therefore I must be a UKIP supporter or racist etc nothing could be further from the truth.

its not about no foriegners where ever they come from etc its about the management of a process something that is not being done successfully at the moment. So pigeon holing everyone as either ignorant or racist is plainly just silly. 

You seem to get very riled up when Muslim's or Identity Politics are mentioned, then go on massive anti Immigration rants and wonder why people question you, it's not the first time Johnnyh, why so angry and concerned about immigration ? It's quite a specific topic.. I don't know if you're sympathetic to UKIP policy or not, it sounds that way, they seem to be the main party using that line no?  You also keep mentioning "Issues" and immigration not being successful in the UK etc etc . What issues ? What about it isn't successful ? for who ? Polish stealing jobs ? Roma putting strain on the NHS ?. Johnny Foreigner didn't f**k up the economy, close your libraries and cut your basic services, that was the political class and bankers. They'll continue to use immigration to deflect attention whilst they privatise the f**k out of everything they can get their grubby dirty hands on, divide and conquer. Maybe if people focused their ire on the real culprits we'd get somewhere. What exactly is it that you think justifies the current wave of right wing bigotry and racism across Europe? You think people just naturally have a lot of opinions about it and rise up against their neighbours, that their anger and "discontent" is really because people from other lands are moving there ? I don't think so. Right wing demagogues and the media stoke the flames of fear for their own personal and financial benefit and many go along with it because it offers them an excuse for their own failing situation. It's a classic, and in my opinion justifies the "ignorant" label. Ignorant isn't a bad word. People need to throw rocks, literal as well as metaphorical at Westminister and the banking class, not their poor immigrant neighbours.

[johnnyh]

Ha ha so I am anti Muslim now am I on what might that be based on. Think you'll find you cannot find one single anti Muslim thing zI have said. Nor will you find any racist comment. Spent 16 years living in the Middle East so I probably would have left if I was anti Muslim.

Lots of accusations but no facts if you want to accuse me come on and present something that supports your case.

If not jump back in your little whole. I am/ was a migrant worker so although not poor like some I do understand some of the problems they have.
You on the other hand just rant rubbish. I have only ever blamed the governments and Europe for the immigration problems that they have. The rise of the right highlights there are problems. You started by saying that it is the ignorant people and everyone is ignorant but the fact is it is you who are ignorant you like to look down on everyone hence your two vids two white middle class comedians that laugh at poorer people like they don't understand. The rise of the right and UKIP is because of idiots like you.

[Deleted]

I said riled up, opinionated.. on these topics. Not anti, or racist, or shouting. Nothing personal here. Just discussing a topic. Let's keep it Macro hey. The discussion is about immigration being a major problem for the UK. You seem to be saying it's mismanaged and should be more regulated than it is. In what way ? What "issues" etc etc..

[anbesivam1]

The artwork in question has certainly done its job in promoting a lively debate -which is always welcome.

I feel that this important discussion would benefit from some facts in which to frame the various views held by members.

Statements in this thread that support the premise that "if we all waved our national flags more, there would not be a rise in right wing politics" in my opinion are unfounded, and seek to conflate unrelated issues.

Ignorance is sadly a factor, but the UK populous is not alone in the incorrect perception of the facts around migration. This is a worldwide problem.

The Ipsos Mori social research institute, polled the UK populous, on estimating the percentage size of the migrant population in the UK, and found that the average guess was 24.4%, when in fact, migrants make up 12.4% of the UK population. They demonstrated that on pretty much any issue, the average UK citizen was incorrect by a significant percentage e.g. People thought that there are FOUR times as many muslims in the UK than there actually are, i.e. 21% when there are only 5%.

This is also true of unemployment rates, under-age birth rates, etc...

There is an ignorance index published as part of this research which puts the UK behind the likes of Sweden, Germany, Japan and Spain. We are however, more accurate than the average USA populous.

These mis-perceptions present clear issues for informed public debate and policymaking.

Importantly, the immigrant population as a percentage of the population, is not associated with a fall in real terms living standards for the population receiving them. Countries like Sweden, Norway, Australia, Canada and the USA all have higher percentages of immigrants per population than the UK (UN 2013 Statistics).

Migration and Remittances Factbook published
by the World Bank in 2011 estimated there were 4.7 million UK emigrants (around 7.5 per
cent of the UK population) living abroad in other countries.

Approximately 50% of immigration statistics is due to Study/student Visas - which is a result of the resounding success of the UK Education system. UK Universities are now big brand names globally and attract some of the best and brightest talent. Each of these international students PAY VERY HIGH STUDENT FEES which help subsidise UK students. Top universities like Imperial College, now have franchises in China and the Middle East. Education is BIG money to the UK economy. This is also evidenced by the fact the David Cameron made 2 trips to India to further entice Indian students to come and study in the UK. A study from the University of Sheffield calculated a £120million net benefit to the local Sheffield GDP as a result of international students in the Sheffield region alone.

The UK has long had policies of actively recruiting talent from developing nations (which results in a brain drain for that nation). This is the foundation upon which our beloved NHS is staffed. Nurses trained in the Philippines, doctors from India actively recruited. Roles are now increasingly filled by workers from the European Economic Area.

Immigration is a highly complex and emotive issue, with other factors like, asylum, detention, child migration, joining families, visa extensions, EAA versus Non-EAA migration, Skilled, highly skilled, high net worth migration all playing different roles. 

How does wrestling our flag back from the right-wing political element change this debate? The same debate is had in all nations irrespective of flag waving. 




 

[johnnyh]

Anbesivam do not think anyone said if we start waving flags there will be no rise in the right

Nor did anyone say there should be no immigration. I certainly did not mention students or foriegn workers and nor did I say anything against immigration. I just expressed my belief in that there is a rise in the right wing of politics and a lot of this is due to the immigration process being a mess and managed badly.

Nuart seems to believe it's perfect. The home office report this week or last stated that there were around 175000 refused asylum seekers still in the UK. Of which they had no idea where 50,000 of them were.
29,000 Asylum seekers are awaiting answers on their cases some of which have been waiting since 2007
11,000 have not been interviewed. Some of these people are being housed like animals in that dump outside Calais etc They have spent something like. Billion pounds on a failed computer system.
Want to bring Europe into it then the Italians will no longer send rescue boats to sea bound migrants heading to its coast....as they believe saving them encourages them
That's just asylum seekers. So if that's not a system that's a mess not sure what is.

There are now benefit migrants due to the expansion of the EU...seems no one had considered that concept but it is a concept that has not been managed the right to free movement and benefits etc was set when the EU was less than 10 nations. No changes at all have been made with the expansion of the EU and for many in the UK it is an issue. Hence the rise of UKIP.
UKIP exist based on immigration the fact that they are winning local elections either means immigration is a mess or no one has convinced the UK it isn't.
Now I have been accused of being a UKIP supporter I am far from it in fact I am disgusted to see the rise of right wing politics in the UK and across Europe. Coming from Coventry I grew up protesting against and fighting with the racist skinhead movement in the UK. It's sad to see a softer version on the rise and the system of management such a mess and relatively unsustainable.

[Deleted]

this isnt a problem of migrants/EU/benfit tourists/, this is a problem of perception- as ambs outlines above.

it is an inescapable fact that our capitalist model requires young flesh in ever increasing quantities- you dont have to have a doctorate im marxist economics to see that we all shoulder resposibility for this, either passively or actively- this board is a perfect example of reality detached commodity fetishment typical of this system.

and we are off....

PS, I have a love rat for sale , please see post in FS

[anbesivam1]

Nov 2, 2014 17:34:53 GMT 1 johnnyh said:

Anbesivam do not think anyone said if we start waving flags there will be no rise in the right

Nor did anyone say there should be no immigration. I certainly did not mention students or foriegn workers and nor did I say anything against immigration. 

I was merely pointing out that the debate should be framed around some facts which put into perspective what is actually happening, not what is perceived to be happening. The bottom line is the UK economy is in growth.


I just expressed my belief in that there is a rise in the right wing of politics and a lot of this is due to the immigration process being a mess and managed badly.
Nuart seems to believe it's perfect. The home office report this week or last stated that there were around 175000 refused asylum seekers still in the UK. Of which they had no idea where 50,000 of them were.
29,000 Asylum seekers are awaiting answers on their cases some of which have been waiting since 2007
11,000 have not been interviewed. Some of these people are being housed like animals in that dump outside Calais etc They have spent something like.

Let us not conflate, a rise in net legal immigration (which is what UKIP are primarily campaigning on) with asylum seekers. There is clearly a problem with providing sanctuary for civilians from war-torn areas e.g. Syrian refugees whom form a large percentage of asylum seekers to Europe in the last few years. No one is disputing that there is a serious problem.


Billion pounds on a failed computer system.
Failed IT projects within the Home Office, Department of Health, Defence etc... are sadly the status quo for the UK.

Want to bring Europe into it then the Italians will no longer send rescue boats to sea bound migrants heading to its coast....as they believe saving them encourages them
That's just asylum seekers. So if that's not a system that's a mess not sure what is.
Sadly the recent conflicts (e.g. in Syria) have resulted in an increase in asylum seekers to European shores. Considering we, the Allies, are fighting or supporting these conflicts, this should make us shoulder some of the load of refugees.

I can certainly tell you that the money spent on military consumables (artillery, ammunition, tanks, targeted weapons systems, smart bombs, air-strikes by drones, soldiers, surveillance planes) outstrips the cost of housing a refugee by about 100,000 to 1. So the situation around certain European partners pulling out of supporting the Italian Navy's valiant work in the Mediterranean is certainly perplexing to me.   
 
There are now benefit migrants due to the expansion of the EU...seems no one had considered that concept but it is a concept that has not been managed the right to free movement and benefits etc was set when the EU was less than 10 nations. No changes at all have been made with the expansion of the EU and for many in the UK it is an issue. Hence the rise of UKIP.

I would be interested to see the estimated figures for EU benefit migrants - please provide a source.

UKIP exist based on immigration the fact that they are winning local elections either means immigration is a mess or no one has convinced the UK it isn't.

UKIP exist based on scare politics by a single charismatic politician (Nigel Farage). One might argue, politics in the UK has become more about personality than policy. 

Now I have been accused of being a UKIP supporter I am far from it in fact I am disgusted to see the rise of right wing politics in the UK and across Europe. Coming from Coventry I grew up protesting against and fighting with the racist skinhead movement in the UK. It's sad to see a softer version on the rise and the system of management such a mess and relatively unsustainable.

I agree it is sad to see the rise of UKIP in the UK.

I have added my comments in Red above. ^

[Deleted]

Thanks anbesivam1 for a very thoughtful, fact based and insightful post. Appreciated.

[Deleted]

It's bizarre how this has turend into a political thread.

I figured Banksy meant that people blindly wave flags at every opportunity without realising or seing what they are really supporting.

Sort of being patriotic to a country that has well and truly fucked them.

[Deleted]

They are very patriotic down here .

[johnnyh]

Statements in this thread that support the premise that "if we all waved our national flags more, there would not be a rise in right wing politics" in my opinion are unfounded, and seek to conflate unrelated issues.

Read more: urbanartassociation.com/thread/122626/banksy-people-enjoy-waving-flags?page=2#ixzz3HwlVuMHl

Sorry Ambesevism1. The above is your statement.

As for the rest of your points yes there is a bit of data but you along with others you assume that I am against immigration. In none of my posts have I stated that I am against immigration. I am/was as mentioned a working immigrant for most of my life across a number of countries and am an immigrant now.

What Zi have stated and stick by is that immigration is a mess in the UK and that is fuelling growth in UKIP and the right. The demographics of UKIP's growth do tend to support that. UKIP growth is more than Farange's personality. That to simple a solution.

Similarly you do not want to discuss the Asylum seekers but they are currently a major part of UK news regularly at the moment so of course this will affect public opinion.
You ask for data on benefit immigration.....sorry I can't give you any as I have never seen any......but to an extent you have hit the nail on the head by asking. There appears to be no data. Estimates but then again people can estimate any number they like and not be disproved hence the strength of UKIP's argument.

Surely if the Gov or labour had a simple bit of data then they could disprove all of UKIP's claims...problem is that they don't. That's why I believe the system is a mess as it appears unregulated and relatively uncontrolled by the state. It needs sorting. It's not about the immigrants they are excerpts img their right to move and improve their quality of life. I fully understand that as it is the same motivating factor that I used. I travelled and worked abroad for money I gave up freedoms etc for money.
So the motivating factors are the same so your and others assumption that I am anti immigration is wrong.

You do not have to be anti immigration to be critical of the system. It is actually the desperate desire for people to defend immigration that has allowed the system of its management to be ran do poorly with such poor data available.