[Black Apple Art]

paddle8.com/work/banksy/43105-people-who-enjoy-waving-flags/

People Who Enjoy Waving Flags, 2003
Spraypaint on nylon flag
60.6 x 34.8 in (153.92 x 88.39 cm)
Framed
Accompanied by COA from Pest Control

[Coach]

Oct 31, 2014 22:17:13 GMT 1 Black Apple Art said:

paddle8.com/work/banksy/43105-people-who-enjoy-waving-flags/

People Who Enjoy Waving Flags, 2003
Spraypaint on nylon flag
60.6 x 34.8 in (153.92 x 88.39 cm)
Framed
Accompanied by COA from Pest Control

It's great piece imo.
I am always suprised when I see flags on houses, in classrooms, etc in America. It just seems a little over the top to me. And I really do say that with respect to my American friends on here.

[samfrost]

Rather surprised to see a high tag item like this on Paddle8, will be interesting to see the results.

[Hubble Bubble]

We've always put the Union Jacks up on Remembrance Day… I find it a respectful way of showing that we haven't forgotten the sacrifices made by previous generations. I also put the England flags out when England play in the Rugby World Cup… I don't bother with the footballers now

[Aza]

Never heard of paddle8 before.
Is it a posh ebay or something?

[Coach]

Oct 31, 2014 22:59:07 GMT 1 Hubble Bubble said:

We've always put the Union Jacks up on Remembrance Day… I find it a respectful way of showing that we haven't forgotten the sacrifices made by previous generations. I also put the England flags out when England play in the Rugby World Cup… I don't bother with the footballers now

Yes, but there is a difference. A flag for a particular occasion. That said, even then I find it slightly uncomfortable.
But my impression of some parts of the US, and forgive me if tgis is wrong, is that flags are regularly and permanently displayed in classrooms, state buildings, outside some houses, etc. And I imagine the same is true of some other countries.
I just find overt nationalism uncomfortable.

[Hubble Bubble]

Not disagreeing with you, coach. Overt nationalism is extremely discomforting and to be avoided. I guess it's how one views a flag and how others use the flag. Some see it/use it as a symbol of rampant nationalism and extremism, others see it/use it as an affectionate source of pride and the identification of ones 'self' within a world of different cultures and races. Nothing wrong with the latter I think, plenty with the former.

[Deleted]

I went passed a 2/3 bed semi the other day with its own flag pole out front, a proper one too. I hate flags at concerts. And the bloody bellends sitting on someone’s shoulders.

[johnnyh]

Must say the opposite Coach that I think there is nothing wrong and think it quite nice that people are proud of their flags the fact that many in England and brittain are not may we'll be one of the reasons it's such a mess at the moment.

strangely enough people of all types flying their flag often prevents it from being hijacked by nationalist organisations etc

must say do like it as a piece though. Interesting that this is also from the retrospective so quite a few works from their did not sell. Yet interestingly enough you could say the pricing being so high was one of the main reasons for not selling yet that event has had a massive affect on the pricing of works.

[Wearology]

I was at a Water Charity event many years ago and they were selling this flag to raise money.
I think the price was $500 and I remember asking myself what idiot would pay $500 for a flag.
I finally have my answer - a very rich and lucky idiot : ) 

[johnnyh]

He, he....in hindsight (a wonderful thing) ........mmmmmmmm dam !!! ?

[Coach]

Nov 1, 2014 0:29:11 GMT 1 johnnyh said:

Must say the opposite Coach that I think there is nothing wrong and think it quite nice that people are proud of their flags the fact that many in England and brittain are not may we'll be one of the reasons it's such a mess at the moment.

strangely enough people of all types flying their flag often prevents it from being hijacked by nationalist organisations etc

must say do like it as a piece though. Interesting that this is also from the retrospective so quite a few works from their did not sell. Yet interestingly enough you could say the pricing being so high was one of the main reasons for not selling yet that event has had a massive affect on the pricing of works.

I think we will have to beg to differ on this one Johnny.
Whilst I believe that I am incredibly lucky to have been born in England - something that was pure chance - I have no pride in being English. Because it was something that was pure chance.
I feel good if I do something good. I feel good if this group of people that happened to be born in the same country as me do something good. But I don't really have any national pride. Likewise please don't think I am in any way anti British. I guess it's because I most associate with humanism.

[johnnyh]

True Coach but as mentioned think that's one of the reasons it's all such a mess in the UK.

Unfortunately Utopia does not exist

[Deleted]

Oct 31, 2014 22:51:28 GMT 1 Coach said:

Oct 31, 2014 22:17:13 GMT 1 Black Apple Art said:

paddle8.com/work/banksy/43105-people-who-enjoy-waving-flags/

People Who Enjoy Waving Flags, 2003
Spraypaint on nylon flag
60.6 x 34.8 in (153.92 x 88.39 cm)
Framed
Accompanied by COA from Pest Control

It's great piece imo.
I am always suprised when I see flags on houses, in classrooms, etc in America. It just seems a little over the top to me. And I really do say that with respect to my American friends on here.

We usually only see the flags everywhere after a major national accomplishment/tragedy... Except for some more rural areas in the south and Bible Belt

[Deleted]

Oct 31, 2014 23:11:59 GMT 1 Coach said:

Oct 31, 2014 22:59:07 GMT 1 Hubble Bubble said:

We've always put the Union Jacks up on Remembrance Day… I find it a respectful way of showing that we haven't forgotten the sacrifices made by previous generations. I also put the England flags out when England play in the Rugby World Cup… I don't bother with the footballers now

Yes, but there is a difference. A flag for a particular occasion. That said, even then I find it slightly uncomfortable.
But my impression of some parts of the US, and forgive me if tgis is wrong, is that flags are regularly and permanently displayed in classrooms, state buildings, outside some houses, etc. And I imagine the same is true of some other countries.
I just find overt nationalism uncomfortable.

Oops just saw this... You're correct that they're at schools, and all government buildings. I always figured every country did, but I guess not?

[South Bound]

I don't mind the flags. What I hate is the Ra-Ra flag waving "Love or Leave It" bullsh*t. You can be a patriot without being a nationalist or an as*hole.

I also vehemently dislike the display of the confederate and Gadsden flag.

[Coach]

Nov 1, 2014 1:09:42 GMT 1 @federationofideas said:

Oct 31, 2014 23:11:59 GMT 1 Coach said:

Yes, but there is a difference. A flag for a particular occasion. That said, even then I find it slightly uncomfortable.
But my impression of some parts of the US, and forgive me if tgis is wrong, is that flags are regularly and permanently displayed in classrooms, state buildings, outside some houses, etc. And I imagine the same is true of some other countries.
I just find overt nationalism uncomfortable.

Oops just saw this... You're correct that they're at schools, and all government buildings. I always figured every country did, but I guess not?

No. No flags in schools in UK.
Or in any government buildings I've been in. Or courts.
I'd be disturbed if they were introduced.

[Coach]

Nov 1, 2014 1:03:31 GMT 1 johnnyh said:

True Coach but as mentioned think that's one of the reasons it's all such a mess in the UK.

Unfortunately Utopia does not exist

I'm not sure what the mess is that you have mentioned.

[Deleted]

Nov 1, 2014 1:35:45 GMT 1 Coach said:

Nov 1, 2014 1:09:42 GMT 1 @federationofideas said:

Oops just saw this... You're correct that they're at schools, and all government buildings. I always figured every country did, but I guess not?

No. No flags in schools in UK.
Or in any government buildings I've been in. Or courts.
I'd be disturbed if they were introduced.

That surprises me... Whenever I see tv footage of sporting events or concerts/festivals overseas, I always see tons of flags being waived in the audience from European nations...so I always assumed you guys waived the flag as much as us, if not more?

Edit.. Lack of flags surprises me, not that you would be disturbed US flag waiving always makes me uncomfortable as well

[johnnyh]

Nov 1, 2014 1:36:44 GMT 1 Coach said:

Nov 1, 2014 1:03:31 GMT 1 johnnyh said:

True Coach but as mentioned think that's one of the reasons it's all such a mess in the UK.

Unfortunately Utopia does not exist

I'm not sure what the mess is that you have mentioned.

You might want to read a paper then Coach whichever one you want and I would pretty much guarantee you will come across it!!!!

[Coach]

Nov 1, 2014 1:44:27 GMT 1 johnnyh said:

Nov 1, 2014 1:36:44 GMT 1 Coach said:

I'm not sure what the mess is that you have mentioned.

You might want to read a paper then Coach whichever one you want and I would pretty much guarantee you will come across it!!!!

I am honestly not trying to be obtuse.
I know that if I read the daily mail I will read a lot about what is wrong. But I won't.
Other papers. Sure. There are problems. But any different to other countries?

[johnnyh]

Well yes it is different to other countries. There is a massive imigration problem in the UK...the rise of UKIP on the right etc kids flying off to fight with ISIS etc

I would tend to say the compilation and mix of those three highlights there are some issues

ps. Not a daily mail reader!!!! And dislike the implication

[Coach]

Nov 1, 2014 1:59:24 GMT 1 johnnyh said:

Well yes it is different to other countries. There is a massive imigration problem in the UK...the rise of UKIP on the right etc kids flying off to fight with ISIS etc

I would tend to say the compilation and mix of those three highlights there are some issues

ps. Not a daily mail reader!!!! And dislike the implication

I wasn't trying to imply that you read the daily mail, and I'm sorry if that's how my comments came accross.
I merely meant that that was the paper that most aserts that the country is in a mess. I was saying that I don't read it, not that you might do. Once again, my apologies if this wasn't clear.
As for the examples you give, my understanding is that we are not alone in the worrying rise of right wing politics. Nor are we alone in having young Muslims going to the Middle East.
As for immigration, I'm proud to be part of the EU, which includes the free movement of people. And those rules apply to all member states.

[johnnyh]

No worries Coach.

The EU is fine it's just it's expansion has caused a movement that is out of balance. However the UK has other imigration problems and the management of immigration. Other nations do have a rise of the right which are predominantly caused by the mismanagement of immigration and therefore the overt rise in nationalism. The English flag before and again is being used by the extreme right as a symbol.
The overt left and right the has a lot to answer for in not managing immigration and creating a breeding ground for the extremist right.
The non deportation of extremists, foriegn criminals, the giving of benefits to foreigners etc have caused major internal and growing problems.
Note I am not against managed immigration as have spent more than half my life as a migrant worker in other countries all of which seem to manage the process better than the UK and likewise do not offer a lot of benefits to migrant workers something the UK seems to dole out.
Must say I was always a supporter of the Big issue always bought a copy when launched and always bought copies when back in the UK. In London now you never see a copy being sold by a Brit person something I find very strange. Working migrants I understand but benefit migrants there is something wrong. Note I do not blame the migrants in anyway shape or form they are legally entitled and are welcome to take full advantage....however there is something wrong with the system that allows these problems and issues to arise.

ps you will find plenty of articles on this subject in the Gaurdian, Indeoendant or the Times and Telegraph they all may have a different political slant but they will all say it's a mess

[Deleted]

I come from a Kale Roma background, and have used the Roma flag as an avatar.

I do not feel entirely comfortable with this.

My culture rejected me, as much as I rejected it – which makes it somewhat hypocritical.

I left South Wales as soon as officially old enough and have lived in Lincolnshire for 5 years now.

Given the current crap on this forum with regard to Roma people – the patronising s**te of which left me shaking with rage – it is a case of stand up and be counted though.

This is not intended as a dig at Parasite by the way, who is doing excellent work and is a real pioneer in helping Eastern European Roma peoples. I have every respect here, totally approve, and watch his work with much interest.

I have worked in 2 schools in Lincolnshire areas that are very keen on flying the English flag – and not just on the mythical St Georges day.
Also Welsh government buildings seem from memory to always have flags?

In Lincolnshire there are a ridiculous number of flag poles, Welsh, Scottish, Union Jack , St George etc, as well as the Lincolnshire flag. Tensions over immigration are also very high here, with many turning to Ukip.

The possible consequences of a Ukip/Con coalition are another thread.

Flag waving is now rife!

Finally, are not race and nationality social constructs? Perhaps if we all acted from the best of our own humanity, rather than from the constructs that our cultures impose upon us, the world would be a better place.

[nacional]

And back to the auction..great piece...flags...no problem with them outside UK...seems to be a British thing..and speaking as a person who spans 4 cultural backgrounds and lives in S America..Brits are hung up on flag phobia..no idea why..maybe a post colonial thing...

[johnnyh]

See Cai that's the problem the fact that the English St George flag is not flown a lot it has allowed the flag to be hijacked by the far right. Think that is also what Banksy's piece refers to. Think it was done at the time of the BNP and the EDF and the tv was covered with them waving the flag of St George.

The UK and England are gererally extremely racially tolerant and it is a massively multicultural society but the racism argument should not be tied in with the immigration argument. Although it often is which causes many problems and often arises as a consequence. Many in the UK feel that neither Europe, the Tories or labour have dealt with the issues of imigration which is a mess. This has led to the rise of UKIP. UKIP is a consequence of the mis management of immigration by Europe and successive UK governments.

The headlines are great for UKIP whether Tory or Labour newspapers they all say immigration is a mess and unless the UK or Europe addresses this problem then it will get worse and UKIP will continue to gain ground. It's a real problem that I fear will not be dealt with and will not go away.

[Hubble Bubble]

Nov 1, 2014 3:59:17 GMT 1 @cai said:

I come from a Kale Roma background, and have used the Roma flag as an avatar.

I do not feel entirely comfortable with this.

My culture rejected me, as much as I rejected it – which makes it somewhat hypocritical.

I left South Wales as soon as officially old enough and have lived in Lincolnshire for 5 years now.

Given the current crap on this forum with regard to Roma people – the patronising s**te of which left me shaking with rage – it is a case of stand up and be counted though.

This is not intended as a dig at Parasite by the way, who is doing excellent work and is a real pioneer in helping Eastern European Roma peoples. I have every respect here, totally approve, and watch his work with much interest.

I have worked in 2 schools in Lincolnshire areas that are very keen on flying the English flag – and not just on the mythical St Georges day.
Also Welsh government buildings seem from memory to always have flags?

In Lincolnshire there are a ridiculous number of flag poles, Welsh, Scottish, Union Jack , St George etc, as well as the Lincolnshire flag. Tensions over immigration are also very high here, with many turning to Ukip.

The possible consequences of a Ukip/Con coalition are another thread.

Flag waving is now rife!

Finally, are not race and nationality social constructs? Perhaps if we all acted from the best of our own humanity, rather than from the constructs that our cultures impose upon us, the world would be a better place.

Cai… of course, welcome to the forum. Obviously, you are passionate about the topic. But -- and I hope you don't take this the wrong way -- I'm not sure what your point is?

[Deleted]

Nov 1, 2014 5:12:13 GMT 1 johnnyh said:

See Cai that's the problem the fact that the English St George flag is not flown a lot it has allowed the flag to be hijacked by the far right. Think that is also what Banksy's piece refers to. Think it was done at the time of the BNP and the EDF and the tv was covered with them waving the flag of St George.

The UK and England are gererally extremely racially tolerant and it is a massively multicultural society but the racism argument should not be tied in with the immigration argument. Although it often is which causes many problems and often arises as a consequence. Many in the UK feel that neither Europe, the Tories or labour have dealt with the issues of imigration which is a mess. This has led to the rise of UKIP. UKIP is a consequence of the mis management of immigration by Europe and successive UK governments.

The headlines are great for UKIP whether Tory or Labour newspapers they all say immigration is a mess and unless the UK or Europe addresses this problem then it will get worse and UKIP will continue to gain ground. It's a real problem that I fear will not be dealt with and will not go away.

In answer to each of your 3 paragraphs-

I agree with you Johnnyh. The English seem afraid to often display or take a pride in their own flag, unlike the Welsh or Irish out of I believe a fear of being labeled as racist in some way. Ironically this has allowed the flag to become hijacked.

It is difficult for people to remain objective here, it is such an emotive issue for so many. This lack of objectivity has lead to total mis-management, which will continue to be exploited further by the far right.

It will not go away. The consequences will be disastrous. I believe that it will lead to the dismantling of the NHS, and welfare state. Tensions in many areas will only worsen, and prejudice and violence increase.

[Deleted]

Nov 1, 2014 7:21:26 GMT 1 Hubble Bubble said:

Nov 1, 2014 3:59:17 GMT 1 @cai said:

Cai… of course, welcome to the forum. Obviously, you are passionate about the topic. But -- and I hope you don't take this the wrong way -- I'm not sure what your point is?

3 AM is possibly not the best time to try making a point, and I apologize if this got lost.

The main point I was attempting to make centers on visibility.

I believe that flag waving is sometimes needed, even if it makes the person waving that flag uncomfortable in some way.

 It is a case of stand up and be counted. If not, your invisibility = silence and can be taken as consent, with regard to beliefs and views which are not in fact shared.

I attempted, perhaps rather clumsily to use myself as an example of the above.