[Lroy]

Could we say in 2014 that the money is hype and hype is money ?
Maybe it is the real debate.

[Lroy]

Could we say, to finish, that BNE is the perfect example of what happened playing with the Hype ?
Well, for the talent...

[Deleted]

L-Roy... I was following you.. But then you said "Invader,".... Really? I am mesmerized.

[chads007]

The ones that can actually paint or draw and show creativity with it are usually the talented group. All subjective as usual

[Deleted]

Neate - Talent

The rest- subjective

[Deleted]

Have a look at where the originals are selling, any old Tom, Dick or Harry will spend a grand on a print but £60K on an original is different chips.

Like when you're down Aspers, only bet with money you can afford to lose.

Buy what you like, stick it on the wall, enjoy it and the fact that your mates are jealous!

[Lroy]

Oct 31, 2014 20:42:42 GMT 1 @fifthspray said:

L-Roy... I was following you.. But then you said "Invader,".... Really? I am mesmerized.

this a personnal and love story, sorry. He is hype of course !

[Lroy]

Hype hype hype hurrah !

[jayTown]

Oct 31, 2014 23:58:11 GMT 1 Lroy said:

Hype hype hype hurrah !

You just hit 4 stars my man? (Well 18 posts ago). Congrats!

Oh. And you're totally wrong about invader

[Hairbland]

Oct 31, 2014 10:59:11 GMT 1 Neate Michael said:

Banksy is the master of hype non?

No, he''s a talented artist with something to say. And he works old school media and new social media perfectly .

But he created his brand and is managing it perfectly.

[Deleted]

Nov 1, 2014 2:46:31 GMT 1 Hairbland said:

Oct 31, 2014 10:59:11 GMT 1 Neate Michael said:

Banksy is the master of hype non?

No, he's the master of self-promotion. Big difference.

But... Is it one person? Or multiples? I know... I am a Conspiracy Theorist!

[Hairbland]

Nov 1, 2014 2:48:42 GMT 1 @fifthspray said:

Nov 1, 2014 2:46:31 GMT 1 Hairbland said:

No, he's the master of self-promotion. Big difference.

But... Is it one person? Or multiples? I know... I am a Conspiracy Theorist!

He's one person. My friend cooked dinner for him while he was in NYC. He has people work with him now as support when in major markets but so what last time I saw Swoon putting up stuff on the street she had 2 helpers and she had a team helping her with the Brooklyn Museum installation. They all have help as they get bigger.

[Deleted]

Nov 1, 2014 2:53:34 GMT 1 Hairbland said:

Nov 1, 2014 2:48:42 GMT 1 @fifthspray said:

But... Is it one person? Or multiples? I know... I am a Conspiracy Theorist!

He's one person. My friend cooked dinner for him while he was in NYC. He has people work with him now as support when in major markets but so what last time I saw Swoon putting up stuff on the street she had 2 helpers and she had a team helping her with the Brooklyn Museum installation. They all have help as they get bigger.

I love finding/reading stuff like this... You see, I have seen some of his previous works, and some of the writing is QUITE different... And thus, my suspicion... I am no writing expert, mind you, but it was quite obvious...

[Hairbland]

Nov 1, 2014 3:01:47 GMT 1 @fifthspray said:

Nov 1, 2014 2:53:34 GMT 1 Hairbland said:

He's one person. My friend cooked dinner for him while he was in NYC. He has people work with him now as support when in major markets but so what last time I saw Swoon putting up stuff on the street she had 2 helpers and she had a team helping her with the Brooklyn Museum installation. They all have help as they get bigger.

I love finding/reading stuff like this... You see, I have seen some of his previous works, and some of the writing is QUITE different... And thus, my suspicion... I am no writing expert, mind you, but it was quite obvious...

I'm not saying they paint more that they scout locations and run logistics.

[sin]

hype is art

[MathMC]

Oct 31, 2014 13:02:25 GMT 1 sgolby said:

This board is a hype machine.  Naturally there are varying levels of Hype, however we feed the beast. 

I was having drinks with a friend the other day and we were talking about art.  We were discussing Urban contemporary art.  A form which he does not like.  I said that to me Urban Contemporary art is art for the MTV generation.  It is easily accessible, easily digestible, and is perfect for a sound-byte driven world where information is distilled to it's most basic form before being presented to the public.  The art is visually appealing with a simple message, and thus easily consumed by the public. 

There is nothing wrong with that.  However, to assume that more than a tiny handful of artists will emerge from this style and remain relevant over time, is folly.  As has been the case with any art form, outside of circles who are true followers of said form.  The difference is, that with this form the following is much larger given the prevalence of the internet in marketing and disseminating the work.

All that said, I have no idea who has real talent, because the fact is only time will tell who will be remembered as a true master.  Banksy & Shep, no doubt, Blek, Invader and Dran, perhaps or even prbably.  Dolk, Walker, Dface, Whatson, Zach, Dot Dot Dot, MBW, I doubt....  I am not passing judgement as I happen to like their work for the most part, I just doubt they will go down in any history books as anything other than a foot note.

S

Great point of view sgolby and agree. thanks for sharing

[Lroy]

Nov 1, 2014 0:55:11 GMT 1 jayTown said:

Oct 31, 2014 23:58:11 GMT 1 Lroy said:

Hype hype hype hurrah !

You just hit 4 stars my man? (Well 18 posts ago). Congrats!

Oh. And you're totally wrong about invader

So Hype or not Hype ?
I don't know ( and I don't care  a bit,  the man has so many talent.
The good quesiotn should be : Is is " hype " from the inside ( in his mind )   or " hype " for others ( prints as Ziggy per example etc.. ) ?

[jayTown]

Nov 1, 2014 9:08:15 GMT 1 Lroy said:

Nov 1, 2014 0:55:11 GMT 1 jayTown said:

You just hit 4 stars my man? (Well 18 posts ago). Congrats!

Oh. And you're totally wrong about invader

So Hype or not Hype ?
I don't know ( and I don't care  a bit,  the man has so many talent.
The good quesiotn should be : Is is " hype " from the inside ( in his mind )   or " hype " for others ( prints as Ziggy per example etc.. ) ?

Fair point. Also. We always talk about hype like its a bad thing. Is it?

[Lroy]

Nov 1, 2014 2:46:31 GMT 1 Hairbland said:

Oct 31, 2014 10:59:11 GMT 1 Neate Michael said:

Banksy is the master of hype non?

No, he''s a talented artist with something to say. And he works old school media and new social media perfectly .

But he created his brand and is managing it perfectly.

He is the man in the middle. Anyway only Mason knows

[Lroy]

Nov 1, 2014 9:11:50 GMT 1 jayTown said:

Nov 1, 2014 9:08:15 GMT 1 Lroy said:

So Hype or not Hype ?
I don't know ( and I don't care  a bit,  the man has so many talent.
The good quesiotn should be : Is is " hype " from the inside ( in his mind )   or " hype " for others ( prints as Ziggy per example etc.. ) ?

Fair point. Also. We always talk about hype like its a bad thing. Is it?

That's true ; in the context and in the title, opposing Hype and Talent reminds us that the hype is bad and the talent is good. As in the Hunter ' s Night.

Hype could be made by " others " ( galeries, buyers, fan, media, etc.. ) for artists with no talents ( or with )
Talent is not Hype.
Look at Phlegm, he is one of the greatest street-artist, but, in the world ( compared to Kaws or faile ) , who cares about ?
Incredible innit ?
It's why I spoke first of stencilers ; stencilers are often hype ( some or goods, some others not ) because of stencils ( Banksy again ? - Blek was not so well-known ) .
And do you know what about, in the art school, critic, museum and galeries ? The Stencils had , by the past, always, been the " poor art" , compared to fine-art..

[Deleted]

I find Whatsons hype to be a bit crazy. I like a few of his works, but his "posterization" tactic when he does people is very amateur and basic. Once he graduates out of that Im sure he'll gain my respect a bit more.

Zacharevic I find has an amazing Talent.

Chevrier has an incredible talent.

Banksy is super hyped but conceptually, and even through his evolution, use of fame, and money I think is the top artist of our generation.

Ive been following Snik lately and his stencil's are amazing, far better than the screen prints.

Maya Hayuk, man I wish I bought something years back. Incredible

Hirst - Im on the fence. I do get excited by some of his work, and I can simply walk past a great bit of it.

[Deleted]

Cindy Sherman is all hype and overrated in my book.

There again she got a half a million dollars when she was awarded the Genius award.

I see no Genius in her self posed photos or any artistic skill apart from making photos of herself which most people can do anyway.

Koons

Hirst

Kapoor

Weiwei

Emin.

Gilbert and George.

 Everything in Tate Modern.

Turner Prize.

Rothko.

Warhol.

Chagall.

Fairey I thought might have longevity but he churns out so many editions that he is flooding the Fairey market and most are just art that he took from other sources and re made them with his name.

His art is bland and to me he comes across as scummy being happy to rip off other peoples images while threatening to sue people who use his images.

Why would he behave this way if it's not about Hype and making money?

andrenaphoto.com/blog/index.php/2012/02/shepard-fairey-dina-douglass/

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shepard_Fairey

www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/24/obama-hope-poster-artist-guilty_n_1299983.html




Space Invader.

makes art that any primary school kid could make and copying the space invaders and slapping them on walls is not art.

Slapping any image is not art.

the art is the art that is made regardless of where it is displayed.


Mr Brainwash.

Anyone can take images and throw paint on them so hype and the name that people buy into.


Banksy

Some hype but mainly clever marketing.


Banksy is an artist and would be interesting to se ehim make art without stencils.

Would it stand out ?


Hirst tried making oïl paintings by his own hand and they nothing special.


People who make photo and digital stencils and screenprints is hype.


Try actually drawing or painting the image first before making the print or stencils and see how easy it is.

[Deleted]

Nov 1, 2014 2:53:34 GMT 1 Hairbland said:

Nov 1, 2014 2:48:42 GMT 1 @fifthspray said:

But... Is it one person? Or multiples? I know... I am a Conspiracy Theorist!

He's one person. My friend cooked dinner for him while he was in NYC. He has people work with him now as support when in major markets but so what last time I saw Swoon putting up stuff on the street she had 2 helpers and she had a team helping her with the Brooklyn Museum installation. They all have help as they get bigger.

So he's like a cross between Blek le Rat and Koons.

[Hairbland]

Nov 1, 2014 14:56:40 GMT 1 @elviswarhol said:

Space Invader.

makes art that any primary school kid could make and copying the space invaders and slapping them on walls is not art.

This statement is what many said to dismiss the entire Pop Art / Modern Art movement of the 60's.  

Whether Franz Kline, Robert Rauschenberg, Andy Warhol,Claes Oldenberg, Ad Reinhardt or an endless list.

Or the minimalism of Donald Judd. The yarn of Fred Sandback.

The list is endless.

I don't mean to pick on you, but you describe yourself as an untrained naive outsider artist, and to make grand sweeping statements about art history is embarrassing at best.  Unless of course you studied art history and have an MFA, if so then please accept my apology.

[Hairbland]

Nov 1, 2014 13:48:41 GMT 1 @hxfour said:

I find Whatsons hype to be a bit crazy. I like a few of his works, but his "posterization" tactic when he does people is very amateur and basic. Once he graduates out of that Im sure he'll gain my respect a bit more.

Zacharevic I find has an amazing Talent.

Chevrier has an incredible talent.

Banksy is super hyped but conceptually, and even through his evolution, use of fame, and money I think is the top artist of our generation.

Ive been following Snik lately and his stencil's are amazing, far better than the screen prints.

Maya Hayuk, man I wish I bought something years back. Incredible

Hirst - Im on the fence. I do get excited by some of his work, and I can simply walk past a great bit of it.

A great example of HYPE versus REAL would be two early "stars" of the 80's -

Jean Michel Basquiat
Julian Schnabel

Both were hot.  It's easy after the fact to determine who was real and who was hyped.

Regarding your list, as I think art discussions on this site wonderful...I agree re Whatson I can't see how he could stand the test of time, whereas Harrington might.  Zacharevic I think WAY to early to tell...I think the market (print market) that exists for these new guys makes it too easy to go for the dough and become lazy.  Chevrier in my opinion looks to be able to put pieces together that others use (female imagery, comic heroes) the best but as with my Schnabel-Basquiat example hard to define while the scene if happening - look at Kenny Scharf.   Hirst did some interesting work early on but was definitely hyped by Saatchi.

I don't think Banksy is super hyped.  I think he established himself with important work during a great time - it seems there was a void in the later 90's that allowed Banksy and KAWS to develop.  Banksy created some iconic pieces.  What he has become is a household name...no easy task.  And he did it like a pot coming to a slow boil...which is not hype.  Hirst was a stew thrown in our faces by Saatchi.

The funny thing about Banksy is he became the bad boy of art that Hirst always wanted to be.  Gotta love that! 


As for others...take KAWS - started tagging in NJ...got a key to be able to do his interruptions...got noticed by some (they call these types patrons)...continued to develop...and is now recognized by galleries, museums and auction houses.  I think that is real.

FAILE - created a great and easily eye-stimulating retro pulp style...mastered it but also hit the streets of NYC with their early work...tried to broaden their style but it didn't work...first to link with NYC Ballet...museums taking note...hard to say where they are...maybe Keith Haring to KAWS Basquiat.

Dran - like learning to fly, but no.  Not hype, not real...just on the periphery.  


At the most 3 artists from this scene will stand the test of time.  I see KAWS as #1 (for the reasons mentioned, not personal taste) and I'm not sure who would be #2 or #3.  Too early to tell.

[darwin]

Nov 1, 2014 15:56:39 GMT 1 Hairbland said:

A great example of HYPE versus REAL would be two early "stars" of the 80's -

Jean Michel Basquiat
Julian Schnabel

Both were hot.  It's easy after the fact to determine who was real and who was hyped.

One is dead and the other is alive.   

I think Basquiat's work is great but becoming a member of the 27 Club - thereby creating a limited inventory - adds much to the allure, at least in terms of demand and pricing.

[Deleted]

Thats a tough comparison with Schnabel and Basquiat as one is still alive, and still doing amazing work.

I think youre comparing hype, with longevity, not necessarily talent. I got into art and the industry in 1996 and bought into street artists before the bubbles. Kaws was one of them, I noticed his graffiti in The Source magazine in the mid 90's and then really started following back in 99-01 when he created the character. Futura, Twist, Kostas Seremetis, Flores, Mars1, Revok, etc etc etc. Had my eye on them from the mid nineties, and theyve all proven themselves to this day.

Zacharevic, I believe is incredible. Im not talking about prints here, Im talking about art, and talent and conceptual ideas, skill. The guy can paint. Banksy can paint, hes proven that, and his marketing and brand positioning is stellar. Chevrier can clearly paint, and excites me, plus shes Canadian, which is why I have 2 original pieces.

Faile - No comment. Flat out dislike the work.

I completely agree with your Kaws statement, he's jumped into high art and has made an incredible career, I love his work and wish I could jump into the originals. Add banksy in that list, he's going very very strong and I dont see it slowing down, wether he's caught or not. High artists like Koons, Oehlen, and a bunch of others could easily keep it up, and are producing awesome work. Id kill for a Koons dog, and an Oehlen abstract. Id have to sell the house though.

Harrington and Chloe Early, sure, theyre great. Talented, and loved, but theres a million artists in a similar style. I prefer Early over Harrington, more feminine and soft which im drawn to.

I know this forum loves its prints, and since joining ive bought a couple I wouldnt have known about otherwise, but those prints will never determine an artists career or longevity. The important originals and the street pieces will. When looking at these artists and their works, consider the importance of their works to this complete era and genre of art, are these artists works amongst the most important of the genre? And which pieces are the most important works by the artist? many artists on this forum dont make that list.

[South Bound]

How do you even begin to forecast an artist that will have longevity past his or her lifespan? You can make an educated guess based on a few factors. I have a long list based on those criteria... But who knows if even one of those artists achieve that level.

[Morfx]

Oct 31, 2014 14:44:36 GMT 1 LonelyFarmer said:

I love hype, it makes the word go round.

Welcome back

[Hairbland]

Nov 1, 2014 17:11:54 GMT 1 @hxfour said:

Thats a tough comparison with Schnabel and Basquiat as one is still alive, and still doing amazing work.

I think youre comparing hype, with longevity, not necessarily talent. I got into art and the industry in 1996 and bought into street artists before the bubbles. Kaws was one of them, I noticed his graffiti in The Source magazine in the mid 90's and then really started following back in 99-01 when he created the character. Futura, Twist, Kostas Seremetis, Flores, Mars1, Revok, etc etc etc. Had my eye on them from the mid nineties, and theyve all proven themselves to this day.

Zacharevic, I believe is incredible. Im not talking about prints here, Im talking about art, and talent and conceptual ideas, skill. The guy can paint. Banksy can paint, hes proven that, and his marketing and brand positioning is stellar. Chevrier can clearly paint, and excites me, plus shes Canadian, which is why I have 2 original pieces.

Faile - No comment. Flat out dislike the work.

I completely agree with your Kaws statement, he's jumped into high art and has made an incredible career, I love his work and wish I could jump into the originals. Add banksy in that list, he's going very very strong and I dont see it slowing down, wether he's caught or not. High artists like Koons, Oehlen, and a bunch of others could easily keep it up, and are producing awesome work. Id kill for a Koons dog, and an Oehlen abstract. Id have to sell the house though.

Harrington and Chloe Early, sure, theyre great. Talented, and loved, but theres a million artists in a similar style. I prefer Early over Harrington, more feminine and soft which im drawn to.

I know this forum loves its prints, and since joining ive bought a couple I wouldnt have known about otherwise, but those prints will never determine an artists career or longevity. The important originals and the street pieces will. When looking at these artists and their works, consider the importance of their works to this complete era and genre of art, are these artists works amongst the most important of the genre? And which pieces are the most important works by the artist? many artists on this forum dont make that list.

No I was comparing talent as a NYCer when they were both alive and happening what I experienced was a bit of a snickering re Schnabel...and he did move on to direct the Basquiat movie, which opened doors to at least a second movie and producing Lou Reed's Berlin in Brooklyn. I wasn't aware of new art work at all, much less any that might be good.

But I think the discussion is good because it involves a bit of history, current affairs and personal biases.