How do you value a genuine haring, no provenance?

[linter]

a person i'm acquainted with has this haring that needs to be sold but doesn't have any idea how to put a value on it. At one point, the thinking was $3k but the problem is ... yup, no provenance. For the purposes of this discussion, let's assume that it is *not* a fake and that it is 100% the real deal ... but without proof other than the proof on the face of it. the person wants to know what could it be sold for, what should it be sold for, and so on.
thoughts?
here it is:

[gooooglemale]

The 'proof on the face of it' is worth £0.
with no prov at all it is simply worth what someone will pay for it - effectively it is worthless in terms of investable/recoupable value though as even if someone 'took a punt on it' they would still only be able to sell it on with that proviso in the future.

You also have to ask how is something by a major artist which is only just over 20 years old (and had value at time of being drawn) has no prov at all.

[Wearology]

Haring did a lot of "Radiant Baby" doodle's for people. He usually dedicated them to the individual by name and often did them on his Keith Haring "Pop Shop" letter head. I have been offered a few of these the past few months all without a COA from the KH Foundation and the asking price on the low was $650 and the high was $2,500 so your friends asking price may be a bit optimistic at $3,000.

[gorkie]

I'm fairly educated on Haring. Here is the link for authentication...

www.haring.com/kh_foundation/authentication

I can tell you that I would personally be very surprised if that drawing is his. Please keep me posted on this if you don't mind though. Hope I am wrong for your friend.

It's very strange. The signature, date and circle with the plus appear to be his, but man that drawing itself. Just doesn't seem possible to me.

Who knows. Good luck with it!

[otto71]

Here is mine.

[Michael Jacob]

Id say on the lower end of Wearolgys comments, maybe $750-$1000. Its very cool, and I really like Haring, but its basically just a signature with a quick sketch. Best of luck

[Michael Jacob]

update:
why would he sign it twice? thats a bit odd and of concern.

[sacked]

Apr 30, 2012 19:00:36 GMT 1 otto71 said:

Here is mine.

Like that Otto.

[linter]

Hey, all, thanks for weighing in. Otto: I love your little drawing and am totally jealous. Wish I could find something like that. The radiant baby looks ... radiant! btw / do you have any kind of official / semi official provenance for it?

odd that the baby in the pic i attached looks so ... misshapen; not at all like otto's or the others i've seen. then again, it's so obviously bad that maybe it's for real; i mean, why would a forger make something so off?

as to the two signatures, i can't explain it, other than to say what i said above: why would someone doing something shady draw attention to his efforts with something like two sigs? i dunno.

i guess i'll pass some of these notes on. myself, i'd be hard pressed to want to pay even $100 for it, especially after seeing otto's nice little example.

[Wearology]

I didn't want to kill this guy's potential sale but he did ask for our opinions. A Haring letter just finished at auction 3/28/12 with six bids and the opening bid was $100, it didn't really garner much interest.
When Haring wrote a letter to a fan he usually signed it Keith not his tag. The G on the Haring signature in this particular letter is not consistent with his other signatures. The "Radiant Baby" as stated before is odd looking at best. The 1st thing that jumped out at me is no letter head from the "Pop Shop".

[linter]

no worries on killing the sale btw.

anyway: maybe the letterhead has been framed out?

[johnnyh]

The other thing is that there is absolutely no explanation of how he /she came to have it. Where was it given and how was it bought etc etc. aside from the points made seems strange to have a picture of it anno explanation of where it came from.

[jopkop]

Apr 30, 2012 20:27:55 GMT 1 sacked said:

Apr 30, 2012 19:00:36 GMT 1 otto71 said:

Here is mine.

Like that Otto.

Lovely Otto!

Bit of a chubby baby, but who cares!

[gorkie]

By the way, just a bit of info for those who are not aware-Keith started signing his name with the plus sign inside of the circle once he found out he was HIV positive. He was a bit of an activist in the early years and kept on using the symbol to draw awareness.

[linter]

didn't know that. thanks for the info!

[misterwhisper]

Apr 30, 2012 18:37:29 GMT 1 gorkie said:

I'm fairly educated on Haring. Here is the link for authentication...

www.haring.com/kh_foundation/authentication

I can tell you that I would personally be very surprised if that drawing is his. Please keep me posted on this if you don't mind though. Hope I am wrong for your friend.

It's very strange. The signature, date and circle with the plus appear to be his, but man that drawing itself. Just doesn't seem possible to me.

Who knows. Good luck with it!

In general, the foundation won't authenticate the sketches Haring did for fans. There are just too many of them in existence. And they also request provenance.

FWIW, I agree w/ Gorkie. The linework just looks wrong. Haring's lines were fluid; he was used to working very quickly, he'd done tens of thousands of drawings by this point and his lines were fast and confident. This linework looks jerky and hesitant. Not like the work of someone who could dash out a radiant baby in 15 seconds in his sleep.

[Michael Jacob]

Nice info on this thread! Cheers

[klyde]

Not sure why you would want that on a wall, let alone pay anything for it.

Its just a small doodle and signature. Theres nothing to it.

I thought the same as mrwhisper. That is not to say it might not be a real one.

[linter]

thanks, all. i'll pass the info on ... though i'm sure the person won't be happy to hear it.

[guillaume]

Apr 30, 2012 21:32:43 GMT 1 gorkie said:

By the way, just a bit of info for those who are not aware-Keith started signing his name with the plus sign inside of the circle once he found out he was HIV positive. He was a bit of an activist in the early years and kept on using the symbol to draw awareness.

Hi gorkie,
Are you sure of that? I've read that he found he was HIV positive in 1998. I've noticed many pieces signed with the plus sign prior to 1998.

For example this painting done in 1984: www.flickr.com/photos/fotoflow/4238036695/

[gorkie]

Quite possible I am wrong on this. This is what I had been told by one dealer way back, but it seems that maybe he just started to sign that way at a certain point to bring attention to AIDS in general since he was active ie his Silence = Death work. I have asked some very specific questions to the Foundation just now and will report back what they say. Good of you to point this out so that we can all get it right. Will get back with the info I am told.

[forbiddenlove]

Aug 5, 2012 14:23:29 GMT 1 guillaume said:

Apr 30, 2012 21:32:43 GMT 1 gorkie said:

By the way, just a bit of info for those who are not aware-Keith started signing his name with the plus sign inside of the circle once he found out he was HIV positive. He was a bit of an activist in the early years and kept on using the symbol to draw awareness.

Hi gorkie,
Are you sure of that? I've read that he found he was HIV positive in 1998. I've noticed many pieces signed with the plus sign prior to 1998.

For example this painting done in 1984: www.flickr.com/photos/fotoflow/4238036695/

Signing from the dead! Scary

[Nuart 2013]

Aug 5, 2012 14:23:29 GMT 1 guillaume said:

Apr 30, 2012 21:32:43 GMT 1 gorkie said:

By the way, just a bit of info for those who are not aware-Keith started signing his name with the plus sign inside of the circle once he found out he was HIV positive. He was a bit of an activist in the early years and kept on using the symbol to draw awareness.

Hi gorkie,
Are you sure of that? I've read that he found he was HIV positive in 1998. I've noticed many pieces signed with the plus sign prior to 1998.

For example this painting done in 1984: www.flickr.com/photos/fotoflow/4238036695/

Actually, he was confirmed HIV in 1988 not 98.. and an Aids activist for a good few years before that, so story could still be right.

[gorkie]

So apparently I was given (and subsequently shared) some bad info!

Per Juila Gruen of the Foundation, Keith began signing with the circle and the plus in the early 80s and it has nothing to do with HIV or AIDS.

Really glad to have the right info now so thanks guillaume. I am a big Haring fan so knowing the real facts is great. I have asked Julia what the circle and plus DOES signify and have also asked for more specific month/date info on when he started using it and will report what she says.

Not a good sleuth I guess. I even have a work dated 82 with the circle and plus being used-well before he became positive in 1988.

[Nuart 2013]

Aug 5, 2012 16:09:05 GMT 1 gorkie said:

So apparently I was given (and subsequently shared) some bad info!

Per Juila Gruen of the Foundation, Keith began signing with the circle and the plus in the early 80s and it has nothing to do with HIV or AIDS.

Really glad to have the right info now so thanks guillaume. I am a big Haring fan so knowing the real facts is great. I have asked Julia what the circle and plus DOES signify and have also asked for more specific month/date info on when he started using it and will report what she says.

Not a good sleuth I guess. I even have a work dated 82 with the circle and plus being used-well before he became positive in 1988.

great sleuthing, good to read a thread ike this, useful for all ! cheers.

[guillaume]

Sorry I mistyped the year and as you guessed I meant 1988 not 1998.
Thank you gorkie for giving us the feedback from the Haring foundation. I am also found of Keith Haring work and happy to discuss this matter with you!

[gorkie]

Thanks. Will report the additional answers from Julia when she replies again.

:-)

[gorkie]

Finally heard back from Julia regarding the additional questions about the use of the symbol by Keith and this is what she sent me...


Artforum, May, 1990

Requiem for the Degas of the B-boys.
by Robert Farris Thompson




"...from around 1981 onward Haring developed as his own spiritual copyright mark the Kongo sign of the solar round, a quartered circle signifying the cosmos divided into dawn, noon, sunset, and midnight. In Central Africa, initiates stand on this sign to seal a vow with God and the ancestors.27 When I asked Keith about it, he said, "I had to draw a symbol to get the other world's [protection], a protective copyright mark that was more than legal, that was spiritually protective."

Hope this helps clarify the why/when question regarding the use of the circle with the plus sign.

Thanks

[guillaume]

So finally nothing to do with AIDS.
Thank you gorkie this is really interesting!