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Post by Guest on Dec 14, 2008 15:38:36 GMT 1
Hi,
I've been buying Banksy prints since 2004.
I've sold a few, I've swapped many, I've got a lot.
I'm on Pictures On Walls s**t List.
They will no longer sell to me as I 'move' prints on.
Questions are....
1. Are you on their s**t list?
2. If you swap a print and you are the original buyer and that print gets sold 5 times, your name will be flagged up to POW as the original buyer when subsequent buyers ask for provenance 5 times, so are you a 'serial flipper'?
3. Why did they sell multiple prints to buyers when Banksy was worth 2 bob and now persecute buyers when they sell?
4. Anything else?
I know here there are a strong pro POW crowd, who'll see this as a personal attack and will find something my ancestors done in 1266 to make their point, but lets see how this thread goes and hope it doesn't escalate into personal insults.
Thanks.
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Post by Guest on Dec 14, 2008 15:45:49 GMT 1
Further questions?
1. How do you know you are their 's**t' list?
2. If I sold a POW print (which I have) and then that print gets 'sold on' more than 4 times how the hell can I/you be blamed for this and thus appear on said 's**t' list, if indeed it does exist?
3. If you are said 's**t' list, then would you be able to enter an event such as this recent lottery where you mightn't be 'allowed' to win?
Most people on here have traded once or twice.....
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Post by Guest on Dec 14, 2008 15:47:45 GMT 1
you didnt try flipping a nola or a vlh ?
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Post by Guest on Dec 14, 2008 15:48:10 GMT 1
write them a letter explaining your situation....
maybe some people on here could stick up for you as well?
Use your girlfriends account info in the future to order prints
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Post by jerometurner on Dec 14, 2008 15:53:41 GMT 1
how did you find out? cancelled Nola? VLH? when was your most recent sale? if it was more than 6-8 months ago i'd say that would be unfair. priorities change, if you sold a print a month after it was sold by POW i'd call you a flipper. but if you held on to it for quite some time and then an emergency came up where you needed to unload some pieces in your collection, that's fair game.
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Post by Guest on Dec 14, 2008 16:04:31 GMT 1
One more question what's 'quite some time'?
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Post by discoduster on Dec 14, 2008 16:19:42 GMT 1
Am i watching Columbo?  |
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Post by Guest on Dec 14, 2008 16:28:42 GMT 1
Further questions? 1. How do you know you are their 's**t' list? 2. If I sold a POW print (which I have) and then that print gets 'sold on' more than 4 times how the hell can I/you be blamed for this and thus appear on said 's**t' list, if indeed it does exist? 3. If you are said 's**t' list, then would you be able to enter an event such as this recent lottery where you mightn't be 'allowed' to win? Most people on here have traded once or twice..... No worries. 1. They told me. 2. I don't have the answer to that, thats why I made the thread for people to discuss. The s**t list does exist. 3. I didn't see the point of entering the lottery they would take my name off if I happened to 'win'. No problems, I choose to give to my favourite charities without the promise of winning a Banksy print. I'm just seeing if there are others who want to come out or is it just me. |
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Post by Guest on Dec 14, 2008 16:36:13 GMT 1
I have some sympathy as this issue baffles me and I think there are MASSIVE grey areas.
What do POW consider a REASONABLE ammount of time before selling a print?
Can someone keep a print one day under 6 mths and be refused further custom, but the person who keeps it one day over before selling is ok.
I know for a fact that if you are one of the people who feel compelled to fill their carts with numerous prints with no purchase then pow will block your ip address.
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Post by robinbanks on Dec 14, 2008 16:37:30 GMT 1
Without mentioning any names there are at least two prominent members on this forum whose names are on said "s**t list".
I also know that one of them has been using his girlfriends details to continue to buy Banksy prints from POW.
How do I know this? Cos the cheeky sod posted the pics of it on here.
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Post by Guest on Dec 14, 2008 16:39:54 GMT 1
i thought the sh1t list was for people who had sold on prints before even receiving them?
pow did used to advertise that all prints they sold were avalible on ebay for more money but times change and so must their business model i guess to keep in line with what the fans/customers want
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baznyc
1 Star Member
Posts: 187
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Post by baznyc on Dec 14, 2008 17:31:26 GMT 1
If it stops people from buying Banksys only for the purpose of topping up their student grants then it seems a good idea.
There are probably 501 good reasons for having a s**t list, but only PoW can really reveal the reasons why.
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brun
3 Star Member
Posts: 879
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Post by brun on Dec 14, 2008 17:44:56 GMT 1
life is sh it and then you die  |
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Post by Frankie on Dec 14, 2008 17:48:47 GMT 1
If it stops people from buying Banksys only for the purpose of topping up their student grants then it seems a good idea. ... but then they'd never sell out! |
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Post by bullet on Dec 14, 2008 17:56:24 GMT 1
If it stops people from buying Banksys only for the purpose of topping up their student grants then it seems a good idea. ... but then they'd never sell out! good! |
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Post by Guest on Dec 14, 2008 18:19:49 GMT 1
life is sh it and then you die This is clearly tongue in cheek  but if anyone really thnks this then I believe there to be a clinic in Switzerland that can sort out all your worries. I only mention this due to competition issues for prints that I'd like but never get.... |
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Post by Guest on Dec 14, 2008 18:28:37 GMT 1
If they have a s**t list why don't they stop selling prints to people who ebay before they receive the print.
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ecb
2 Star Member
Posts: 386
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Post by ecb on Dec 14, 2008 18:55:43 GMT 1
What print did you sell to make the s**t list? And when did you sell it? NOt enough info here for me to form an opinion.
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Post by chrisps303 on Dec 14, 2008 19:48:49 GMT 1
If they have a s**t list why don't they stop selling prints to people who ebay before they receive the print. Good point, how do they decide who goes on the sh it list? There does seem to be some serial flippers on ebay who manage to get most if not all the recent banksy releases. |
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Post by Guest on Dec 14, 2008 19:53:04 GMT 1
If it stops people from buying Banksys only for the purpose of topping up their student grants then it seems a good idea. There are probably 501 good reasons for having a s**t list, but only PoW can really reveal the reasons why. i am either way out, or spot on, but is this a dig at me? |
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Post by curiousgeorge on Dec 14, 2008 19:57:03 GMT 1
If it stops people from buying Banksys only for the purpose of topping up their student grants then it seems a good idea. There are probably 501 good reasons for having a s**t list, but only PoW can really reveal the reasons why. i am either way out, or spot on, but is this a dig at me? Either way it's hit a nerve and made me laugh (not at you) |
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Post by Existencil on Dec 14, 2008 20:25:31 GMT 1
I can see both sides of this argument, but I think POW are essentially wrong to have this list. People who 'flip' prints play a vital role in feeding the international market. I've sold a few pieces from my collection in the past year and they have gone to buyers in the USA and Japan. On both occasions, these buyers expressed their frustration at missing the original release due to time differences. POW have an international reputation, but they don't adjust their release times to meet this fan base. Neither do they have international arms of their business. It's up to the secondary market to redress that balance. If this secondary market didn't exist, POW prints wouldn't be hanging on walls in Los Angeles and Tokyo.
The second point that POW seem to have forgotten, is that the 'flippers' increase demand for their artists. We all know that if a print sells out, the artist's profile rises significantly. Also, if the market value climbs high, it means that the next POW release by the same artist will be a massive success. Interfering with market dynamics is like interfering in nature. If POW hand pick their buyers, they might one day find it difficult to sell anything.
POW are a top notch operation. I generally love the stuff they knock out. However, this big brother stuff is really unhealthy.
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Post by curiousgeorge on Dec 14, 2008 20:30:15 GMT 1
Amazing post stupot
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Post by robinbanks on Dec 14, 2008 20:34:06 GMT 1
I can see both sides of this argument, but I think POW are essentially wrong to have this list. People who 'flip' prints play a vital role in feeding the international market. I've sold a few pieces from my collection in the past year and they have gone to buyers in the USA and Japan. On both occasions, these buyers expressed their frustration at missing the original release due to time differences. POW have an international reputation, but they don't adjust their release times to meet this fan base. Neither do they have international arms of their business. It's up to the secondary market to redress that balance. If this secondary market didn't exist, POW prints wouldn't be hanging on walls in Los Angeles and Tokyo. The second point that POW seem to have forgotten, is that the 'flippers' increase demand for their artists. We all know that if a print sells out, the artist's profile rises significantly. Also, if the market value climbs high, it means that the next POW release by the same artist will be a massive success. Interfering with market dynamics is like interfering in nature. If POW hand pick their buyers, they might one day find it difficult to sell anything. POW are a top notch operation. I generally love the stuff they knock out. However, this big brother stuff is really unhealthy. So much bs in this post I don't know where to begin. Can I start by asking you if you have any idea what on earth you are talking about? |
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Post by Existencil on Dec 14, 2008 20:36:25 GMT 1
Well, might be an idea expressing your views without resorting to quips.
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Post by theycallmestephen on Dec 14, 2008 20:49:31 GMT 1
none of the points you have made are valid existencil/stuey...i don't see how people flipping prints feed the international market, depending on how soon after their release you sold them i would say there frustration was with you and not time differences.
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Post by robinbanks on Dec 14, 2008 20:52:34 GMT 1
Stuey - I'm not going to waste my time trying to educate you. There are plenty of decent books out there that will do a much better job than me.
Try starting with Collecting Contemporary by Adam Lindemann and take it from there.
But if you seriously think that you are helping out artists and their fans by selling on prints at ridiculously inflated prices then I worry that you may already be too far gone.
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Post by Existencil on Dec 14, 2008 20:54:15 GMT 1
The frustration was definately with POW.
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Post by Guest on Dec 14, 2008 21:00:46 GMT 1
Errrr, no, people who flip prints don't in any way shape or form the international 'market' or any other form of market, they distort it.
Free markets thrive on transparency and willing seller/buyer transactions - far from 'helping' markets, this kind of activity manipulates markets. I feel you are only trying to justify your own actions and those of fellow (and you're gonna say you haven't flipped anything in the last year as a mitigant) flippers.
Other than Banksy releases of late, there's little this year that if you take 'flippers' out of the equation would've sold out in an instant, hence the reason why time and time again prints sell out, go for a premium, then fall back to essentially levels of support that would've existed on day one.
I suppose, indirectly, what I'm saying is that if you buy on the secondary market, straight after a print releass from someone after a fast buck is that you're naive (or rich, or both).
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Post by Existencil on Dec 14, 2008 21:01:41 GMT 1
Robin - your wrong on a few counts.
I didn't sell on at inflated prices. The price was inflated because the market dictated that price. People pay what they think the art is worth. That's how the secondary market works.
Secondly, are you saying that POW do have an international presence? They don't. Are you also saying that prints selling out doesn't influence artist reputation? It does.
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