[jppp]

www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2024/mar/09/legal-row-banksy-reveal-real-name-art-images-authenticity

[iamzero]

I was shown this article yesterday and appears to be a problem with a Monkey Queen image. Wasn’t there a fair few back door prints from this run?

[LJCal]

Expect plenty more of these. I think he's got a decision to make, either fix up the operation and bring in some professionals to manage the authentication process and sale of his works, or disband the authentication service. The current state of affairs doesn't seem sustainable from where I'm sitting.

[dotdot]

very much doubt the story contains enough to warrant comment.

pc will continue in it's current form - for the forseeable - regardless of what i think.

people need to see it for what it is - it's an org trying to help people , whilst that might be interpreted as obstructive it does not control all of those who have bought works in the past whom it may have to depend on for... updates in the event of a owner change etc.

perhaps the above as a concept is ... impossible for many to grasp. hey ... it could be a whole lot worse.

if they for example simply shut up shop - have a think about that... what could / would be the impact.

.. ok - had a think ... ? now put the kettle on and chill out. ffs

..

[kfroms]

Mar 10, 2024 12:22:41 GMT 1 dotdot said:

very much doubt the story contains enough to warrant comment.

pc will continue in it's current form - for the forseeable - regardless of what i think.

people need to see it for what it is - it's an org trying to help people , whilst that might be interpreted as obstructive it does not control all of those who have bought works in the past whom it may have to depend on for... updates in the event of a owner change etc.

perhaps the above as a concept is ... impossible for many to grasp. hey ... it could be a whole lot worse.

if they for example simply shut up shop - have a think about that... what could / would be the impact.

.. ok - had a think ... ? now put the kettle on and chill out. ffs

..

Nope. The issue is that PC accepted money in exchange for a service. 
That service is still pending after three years, hence the legal route.  
Its a very “normal” legal case, what the service is doesn’t play a role at all. 

this is the crucial bit:

He said, addressing Pest Control: “‘You’ve had the work; you’ve inspected it. Is it right or is it wrong? That’s the service that you claim to provide. If it’s wrong, that’s OK, because we will have a claim on the estate the piece was bought from. If it’s right, great. Just give us the paperwork we need to validate it.’ They’re not providing a proper service.”

[King and a Duck]

Seems like a real game of cat and mouse for Katz and Howse.

 Thank you, goodnight.

[lukas01]

If I had 100 original Banksy canvases, I would contact Pest Control to find out if they are original or not. do I have certification? I could wait 3 or 5 years. That changes? If you like that work of art and you don't have to put it up for sale, then nothing changes at all. Right now is not the best time to sell art at auction.
Market manipulation? If this is to help the seller of an original Banksy make more money, why wouldn't he do it?If you don't want to have problems with disinfestation, I recommend buying some fake works by Banksy for a few dozen pounds.
There are many online shops where you can buy great quality, large Banksy canvases for £10.
Pest control? An uninteresting practice at the moment.

[revert]

Unfortunately its only the tip of the iceberg for PC. The floodgates are starting to open.
They took a clever concept that had worked well and royally messed it up. Not sure there's any fixing it now.
The market will carry on and be better off in the long run than it has been in recent times, PC will do well to survive the next couple years under current directorship.
Only chance of fixing PC is dramatic changes in staff regarding decision making and efficiency and making the public aware of the changes. This lot don't cut it at the level needed.
PC were created to safeguard the artist and his collectors/market, they don't.
Hard job on them though, being chucked in with very little experience in the actual market, it was a disaster in the making from the get go.
They've been focused on making their/the artists life easier, with little regard for the collectors/artists market.
I'm glad the artist has the protective cloak of PC . All blame will fall on them and give him a chance to rethink. Rebrand PC under capable staff or close it up. Focus on streetworks/good publicity and he can sell a handful of originals out of sight to collectors to top the float up for artist events/for charity.
Too much negativity in recent years, mostly created by PCs incompetence and poor decision making, largely avoidable.
Long term, he's a generational artist, things will right themselves in time.
The quicker the PC situation is handled by the artist the better for all in the long run, including him. Whether that's PC closing up or capable staff being put in the right positions.
It can't be good for his creative/general head space.
I'm expecting a lot of negative press revolving around PC until the situations resolved. The best thing collectors can do, if they can afford to, is sit tight and wait it out. Ignore the unfolding drama of PC. PC aren't Banksy, thankfully.
The only thing the market would loose at this point, is an incompetent due diligence company.

[Dice]

I guess one of the problems with staffing PC is finding people you can trust with all the cloak and dagger goings on as well as keeping schtum on rare and never seen in public originals and gifted works

[kfroms]

Mar 10, 2024 14:50:24 GMT 1 Dice said:

I guess one of the problems with staffing PC is finding people you can trust with all the cloak and dagger goings on as well as keeping schtum on rare and never seen in public originals and gifted works

Hire some professionals and pay them properly?!
Galleries and big auction houses are very good at keeping client information “secret”, PC should be able to do the same. 

[revert]

Mar 10, 2024 14:50:24 GMT 1 Dice said:

I guess one of the problems with staffing PC is finding people you can trust with all the cloak and dagger goings on as well as keeping schtum on rare and never seen in public originals and gifted works

For sure regarding trust.
The main problem is that they're understaffed for that size of a company. However they're only 2 staff down in the office and have an extra director.PC were capable enough of all the above before staff changes.
There are people at PC now that he must trust, they don't have to try and run a business of this scale because there's no other options. They can be the communication channel to the artist/help with events and the right staff could be hired to suit the positions to run it in a responsible way. Staff of PC don't need to know anything other than how to do their job. Gives him less headaches and he can focus on doing what he does best. 

[Jonas B]

There’s enough money in and around Bansky to sort this out but the team his put in place seem to be content in providing a really poor service.

[Minecrafter]

In the end, pest control is operating on Banksy's command. Especially when it comes to high valued originals.
Robin will always have to give the nod. There's staff that aren't qualified to identify works that were created before they even worked there. It's pure greed by Banksy and he's the one making the decisions.

[Fluffy Pillow]

Mar 10, 2024 16:29:00 GMT 1 Minecrafter said:

In the end, pest control is operating on Banksy's command. Especially when it comes to high valued originals.
Robin will always have to give the nod. There's staff that aren't qualified to identify works that were created before they even worked there. It's pure greed by Banksy and he's the one making the decisions.

It was only a matter of time… seriously, unsubscribe for your own health and wellbeing.

[Fuzzyduck121]

B isn’t greedy

He just doesn’t care

But the thing is, when it’s your name being protected and you are the one paying the wages you can’t simply sit in the boozer forever and pretend it isn’t happening

This is going to get pretty ugly in my view because well , I’m pretty sure the claim has merit which means there could be thousands of claims with merit

Lawyers will pounce on this

[mojo]

I think most people underestimate the logistics and amount of time it takes to trace a 20+year old print back to its original provenance without conclusive proof of original purchase.  Pest Control probably get thousands of emails a day and 95% of them are no doubt hopeful chancers and or total bullshit.  The article in the Guardian states that the print was 'acquired' through an estate sale so the particulars of its origin are vague to non existent to say the least.  To assume you pay a small £50 fee and then expect the entire authentification process to revolve around just your particular print, that you have provided no evidence to support its authenticity is pretty naive.  Items from estate sales are often 'flagged up' in general antique sales as provenance is often scarce.  I can see why people get frustrated as it all seems so simple but I doubt it actually is.  Get frustrated with all the fakers, scammers, clothes shops and greeting card companies that rip off the images...oh and Tories definitely get frustrated with them in fact just blame them...for everything.

[Fuzzyduck121]

I have a family member who bought a print from POW in 2007

Has all emails and his credit card bill from that month

He’s never sold it or framed it

He sent a request for a cert a year and a half ago because he never requested one before and is still waiting

No arguments are justified here it’s simply poor management and lack of staff

Literally there is no argument

The whole , they have thousands of emails a day argument is nonsense

There is a small quantity of actual works and anyone with half a brain and knowledge of the artist could discount the majority in seconds

It’s a street piece , no

It’s not one of the 20/30 official prints , no

It’s a piece of memorabilia or a poster ,no

They literally don’t care

I love B and the work and I have no issue with them myself but it’s literally a fact that they don’t care

Pretty cool view on things but it does mean they will end up getting sued

[oldtimer]

Mar 10, 2024 19:09:06 GMT 1 Fuzzyduck121 said:

I have a family member who bought a print from POW in 2007

Has all emails and his credit card bill from that month

He’s never sold it or framed it

He sent a request for a cert a year and a half ago because he never requested one before and is still waiting

No arguments are justified here it’s simply poor management and lack of staff

Literally there is no argument

The whole , they have thousands of emails a day argument is nonsense

There is a small quantity of actual works and anyone with half a brain and knowledge of the artist could discount the majority in seconds

It’s a street piece , no

It’s not one of the 20/30 official prints , no

It’s a piece of memorabilia or a poster ,no

They literally don’t care

I love B and the work and I have no issue with them myself but it’s literally a fact that they don’t care

Pretty cool view on things but it does mean they will end up getting sued

Chances are that they have already issued a COA to someone else with your print number that's been sold at auction. 

[reg]

I could systemise PC in a week.


Scrap the absolute nonsense of emailing photos and credit card billls to ascertain Provenance (a format that has months at best before it's overtaken by AI bots).

Set PC up as a financial institution and access credit reference and other sources for addresses and proofs of ID to properly trace ownership.

And.... Controversial.... Draw a line - only those pieces eligible for a CoA will be issued with one and let the rest prove their own Provenance.

[mojo]

Mar 10, 2024 19:09:06 GMT 1 Fuzzyduck121 said:

I have a family member who bought a print from POW in 2007

Has all emails and his credit card bill from that month

He’s never sold it or framed it

He sent a request for a cert a year and a half ago because he never requested one before and is still waiting

No arguments are justified here it’s simply poor management and lack of staff

Literally there is no argument

The whole , they have thousands of emails a day argument is nonsense

There is a small quantity of actual works and anyone with half a brain and knowledge of the artist could discount the majority in seconds

It’s a street piece , no

It’s not one of the 20/30 official prints , no

It’s a piece of memorabilia or a poster ,no

They literally don’t care

I love B and the work and I have no issue with them myself but it’s literally a fact that they don’t care

Pretty cool view on things but it does mean they will end up getting sued

Great you have all that proof..and that they had the good sense to buy it in 2007.  
I'm sure once they get to your application it will be quite simple and straightforward, did you attach copies of all the documentation/proof?  Thing is they really are dealing with thousands of artworks (& daily emails) each with a unique chain of ownership with varying degree's of proof linked to each to establish COA and to keep updated records.  It really isn't as simple as you describe, by looking through a 'pile' of prints and posters and randomly pulling out the dodgy fakes, it's establishing the artworks history and recording that for future reference.  As I said I can see why people get frustrated but I suppose its all just part of the process and if it wasn't being done throughly/properly it would invariably create more problems down the line.  
Alternatively perhaps Banksy and PC are gently reminding us that patience is a virtue or that everything comes to those that wait?  

[revert]

Mar 10, 2024 19:56:16 GMT 1 mojo said:

Mar 10, 2024 19:09:06 GMT 1 Fuzzyduck121 said:

I have a family member who bought a print from POW in 2007

Has all emails and his credit card bill from that month

He’s never sold it or framed it

He sent a request for a cert a year and a half ago because he never requested one before and is still waiting

No arguments are justified here it’s simply poor management and lack of staff

Literally there is no argument

The whole , they have thousands of emails a day argument is nonsense

There is a small quantity of actual works and anyone with half a brain and knowledge of the artist could discount the majority in seconds

It’s a street piece , no

It’s not one of the 20/30 official prints , no

It’s a piece of memorabilia or a poster ,no

They literally don’t care

I love B and the work and I have no issue with them myself but it’s literally a fact that they don’t care

Pretty cool view on things but it does mean they will end up getting sued

Great you have all that proof..and that they had the good sense to buy it in 2007.  
I'm sure once they get to your application it will be quite simple and straightforward, did you attach copies of all the documentation/proof?  Thing is they really are dealing with thousands of artworks (& daily emails) each with a unique chain of ownership with varying degree's of proof linked to each to establish COA and to keep updated records.  It really isn't as simple as you describe, by looking through a 'pile' of prints and posters and randomly pulling out the dodgy fakes, it's establishing the artworks history and recording that for future reference.  As I said I can see why people get frustrated but I suppose its all just part of the process and if it wasn't being done throughly/properly it would invariably create more problems down the line.  
Alternatively perhaps Banksy and PC are gently reminding us that patience is a virtue or that everything comes to those that wait?  

There's no excuse really, if they can't do the job properly make changes, get help or hire people that can do the job.
It could be simpler, they make it more difficult than it needs to be. Probably due to a  lack of experience in different roles.

[mojo]

Mar 10, 2024 20:03:37 GMT 1 revert said:

Mar 10, 2024 19:56:16 GMT 1 mojo said:

Great you have all that proof..and that they had the good sense to buy it in 2007.  
I'm sure once they get to your application it will be quite simple and straightforward, did you attach copies of all the documentation/proof?  Thing is they really are dealing with thousands of artworks (& daily emails) each with a unique chain of ownership with varying degree's of proof linked to each to establish COA and to keep updated records.  It really isn't as simple as you describe, by looking through a 'pile' of prints and posters and randomly pulling out the dodgy fakes, it's establishing the artworks history and recording that for future reference.  As I said I can see why people get frustrated but I suppose its all just part of the process and if it wasn't being done throughly/properly it would invariably create more problems down the line.  
Alternatively perhaps Banksy and PC are gently reminding us that patience is a virtue or that everything comes to those that wait?  

There's no excuse really, if they can't do the job properly make changes, get help or hire people that can do the job.

But they are 'doing the job' the job takes time.  Think about it, 1000's of artworks spanning 25 years. I bet PC staff love coming on here to read about how shit they are at their jobs and how crap they all are for carrying out due diligence when authenticating the work that will later be sold for life changing amounts of cash by the people slagging them off. 
I'm sure many people on here think they could do it better, faster, smarter with an app thrown in but in reality don't have any experience of how the business actually operates.

[Acme Thunderer]

Who is this Bankdy person you all speak of?

[Pete the Post]

Working for PC, must be like living your life inside this forum id guess it wont be long until they Fuck it off. Wouldnt be the first authenticators to decide the grief just isnt worth it.

And who could blame them.

[revert]

Mar 10, 2024 20:34:40 GMT 1 mojo said:

Mar 10, 2024 20:03:37 GMT 1 revert said:

There's no excuse really, if they can't do the job properly make changes, get help or hire people that can do the job.

But they are 'doing the job' the job takes time.  Think about it, 1000's of artworks spanning 25 years. I bet PC staff love coming on here to read about how shit they are at their jobs and how crap they all are for carrying out due diligence when authenticating the work that will later be sold for life changing amounts of cash by the people slagging them off. 
I'm sure many people on here think they could do it better, faster, smarter with an app thrown in but in reality don't have any experience of how the business actually operates.

Point is they're doing the job really badly.  Theres no excuse for not being able to authenticate works which have enough proof in place(which they have) or to deny coas because of some trumped up new policy they made up(which they have). There's no excuses for a lot of it. Other than too few inexperienced staff to cope. 
Of course the current staff has a big task, an impossible task for them it seems. Maybe get more staff for starters if volumes the big issue. 
These lawsuits are no longer out of public eye and being settled out of court. They're being aired out publicly in the papers.


By ' by the people slagging them off.', do you mean the people that bought his works and helped put them in the position they're in now? Ie his supporters/fans/collectors?

[LJCal]

There's a good reason the Warhol, Lichtenstein, Basquiat and Haring authentication boards were disbanded, it's inevitable the same will happen for Pest Control, it's when not if. The reality is the market for these artists has moved forward without issue, the same will happen with Banksy. I thought it would take 10-20 years with Banksy but based on recent events could happen in the next 1-2 years. I imagine it's become a huge pain in the ass for him and he'll probably fuck off the authentication sooner than most people think.

I own and have bought hundreds of secondary works without COAs and never had an isssue because there are other ways to authenticate pieces. As things stand in my view the market may function better if they just shut up shop and focussed on the marketing, PR and carrying out sales.

[mojo]

Mar 10, 2024 21:34:11 GMT 1 revert said:

Mar 10, 2024 20:34:40 GMT 1 mojo said:

But they are 'doing the job' the job takes time.  Think about it, 1000's of artworks spanning 25 years. I bet PC staff love coming on here to read about how shit they are at their jobs and how crap they all are for carrying out due diligence when authenticating the work that will later be sold for life changing amounts of cash by the people slagging them off. 
I'm sure many people on here think they could do it better, faster, smarter with an app thrown in but in reality don't have any experience of how the business actually operates.

Point is they're doing the job really badly.  Theres no excuse for not being able to authenticate works which have enough proof in place(which they have) or to deny coas because of some trumped up new policy they made up(which they have). There's no excuses for a lot of it. Other than too few inexperienced staff to cope. 
Of course the current staff has a big task, an impossible task for them it seems. Maybe get more staff for starters if volumes the big issue. 
These lawsuits are no longer out of public eye and being settled out of court. They're being aired out publicly in the papers.


By ' by the people slagging them off.', do you mean the people that bought his works and helped put them in the position they're in now? Ie his supporters/fans/collectors?

But you have to appreciate that any particular artwork could have gone through many private sales/dealerships/auctions/poker games/car boot sales/ estate sales without Banksy/PC being involved ...that's the rub and that's why it takes time to be able to comprehensibly piece it all together.  It's just not as simple as is being implied and I don't think anyone is trying to be difficult its just the way it is.

[hnkpnk]

Mar 10, 2024 9:55:13 GMT 1 iamzero said:

I was shown this article yesterday and appears to be a problem with a Monkey Queen image. Wasn’t there a fair few back door prints from this run?

Yes, I think there were quite a lot of back door Monkey Queens. And as they are indistinguishable from the official edition apart from a number and maybe a signature in pencil it must be next to impossible to determine if real or not if it doesn’t have a paper trail. It also predates the blind stamp even if a lot got it as they sold years after the first release. 

If it takes PC a long time to come up with a verdict I’m not surprised. 

[revert]

Mar 11, 2024 0:00:43 GMT 1 mojo said:

Mar 10, 2024 21:34:11 GMT 1 revert said:

Point is they're doing the job really badly.  Theres no excuse for not being able to authenticate works which have enough proof in place(which they have) or to deny coas because of some trumped up new policy they made up(which they have). There's no excuses for a lot of it. Other than too few inexperienced staff to cope. 
Of course the current staff has a big task, an impossible task for them it seems. Maybe get more staff for starters if volumes the big issue. 
These lawsuits are no longer out of public eye and being settled out of court. They're being aired out publicly in the papers.


By ' by the people slagging them off.', do you mean the people that bought his works and helped put them in the position they're in now? Ie his supporters/fans/collectors?

But you have to appreciate that any particular artwork could have gone through many private sales/dealerships/auctions/poker games/car boot sales/ estate sales without Banksy/PC being involved ...that's the rub and that's why it takes time to be able to comprehensibly piece it all together.  It's just not as simple as is being implied and I don't think anyone is trying to be difficult its just the way it is.

I appreciate and understand all the above. I don't see the difficulty in training extra staff to do due diligence. They were able to train the new directors in a few months and felt that was sufficient. That would be much more difficult than training how to perform due diligence. 
'Just the way it is', is problematic.. 

[Javier]

Mar 11, 2024 0:00:43 GMT 1 mojo said:

Mar 10, 2024 21:34:11 GMT 1 revert said:

Point is they're doing the job really badly.  Theres no excuse for not being able to authenticate works which have enough proof in place(which they have) or to deny coas because of some trumped up new policy they made up(which they have). There's no excuses for a lot of it. Other than too few inexperienced staff to cope. 
Of course the current staff has a big task, an impossible task for them it seems. Maybe get more staff for starters if volumes the big issue. 
These lawsuits are no longer out of public eye and being settled out of court. They're being aired out publicly in the papers.


By ' by the people slagging them off.', do you mean the people that bought his works and helped put them in the position they're in now? Ie his supporters/fans/collectors?

But you have to appreciate that any particular artwork could have gone through many private sales/dealerships/auctions/poker games/car boot sales/ estate sales without Banksy/PC being involved ...that's the rub and that's why it takes time to be able to comprehensibly piece it all together.  It's just not as simple as is being implied and I don't think anyone is trying to be difficult its just the way it is.

That doesn’t explain why are still lots of GDP pieces waiting for their COA (that besides was to be directly sent by November 2021). I don’t want Banksy prices el fall, but I want to have my COA at home, stored, and forget about needing documents for my artwork. Backdoor prints involved must be a pain and hard to deal, but this is easy. Very easy