[misterx]

Feb 9, 2014 22:07:04 GMT 1 Ottomatik said:

After reading post on Twitter from Cope2, he will never get a penny from me.

Mainly, his over abundance use of the word faggot...

p*ick!

I was put off Cope2 after seeing his tweets regarding some woman and a blow job which was in really poor taste...

Do I sound prudish?

I was also put off by an artist from The States, well supported on here, who tried his luck ripping me off with the postage to OZ. When I politely pointed out that his P&P prices were frikkin insane he then begrudgingly "let me off". Never again will I buy from him. Sorry S.

[randomname]

Feb 9, 2014 23:58:54 GMT 1 misterx said:

Feb 9, 2014 22:07:04 GMT 1 Ottomatik said:

After reading post on Twitter from Cope2, he will never get a penny from me.

Mainly, his over abundance use of the word faggot...

p*ick!

I was put off Cope2 after seeing his tweets regarding some woman and a blow job which was in really poor taste...

Do I sound prudish?

I was also put off by an artist from The States, well supported on here, who tried his luck ripping me off with the postage to OZ. When I politely pointed out that his P&P prices were frikkin insane he then begrudgingly "let me off". Never again will I buy from him. Sorry S.

I was put off Cope2 when I found out he was a snitch for the NYPD graffiti unit.

[Deleted]

I was asked to shut-up and called stupid and even had three paragraphs about my deviant behavior in a written article because I tried to explain to an artist that his last FB status saying that "street thieves, copycats and haters copycat artists are not more than monkeys" without giving names is very wrong...

Got more insults by email, saying he is an happy dictator.

This artist is a master in trolling, posting controversial stuff then deleting it... then trying to engage discussion in private by email or private message.

One day I dropped a comment on a press article about the same artist after he made a open letter to all the right-wing people who were using bananas to express their homophobic views, saying in short that "people using bananas are not respectable people". I just commented asking "what about people saying that artist are less than monkeys ?" or saying "if street artist were invited in supermarket to promote their art, they would be in the cold meat dept" or saying "people going at that exhibition would fit well amongst hams and pork sausages".

Got a dozen of tweets after my comment calling publicly "deviant guy", "troll", "obsessed", "barking mad", "sick", "stalker", "blackmailer", "small player with only 100 followers" (who cares), "bad artist" (I am not an artist). Even a public call asking for help to drop official complain for trolling

Scary !! But then it is the same guy who called his ex-girlfriend and artist friend a slut and copycat... and the same one who posted on FB that there are some fake copies going around after he noticed that one of old buddy were selling one of this artwork... followed by numerous SMS with insults and even SMS mentioning his health issues.

The worst troll ever with a big ego issue. 

*********************

Otherwise, I got another one who really disliked the fact I said that his print showing a rat holding a race flag with a kid on a tricycle was bad

***********************

So yes it does matter and that is why you should not be scared to express your opinion, especially when they are dicks who think they can say whatever they want because they have a big neck.

[graffuturism]

This thread is a reason many artists dont like to deal with selling their work and let galleries handle it. Some are smart enough to know that its tougher to please a customer then paint a picture. Not making excuses for any of the horror stories, but artists are artists first and selling their work is a whole other story. You can try to be accommodating but in defense of some artists I have seen them have to deal with some shady people, time wasters, people changing agreements, not paying for work after commissioned,etc, etc. So when your dealing with someone I try to understand why artists are the way they are and why they ignore 9 out of ten emails of people asking for something. My perspective is different and I will always collect art regardless of who that person is outside of his paintings. To me yes I can see wanting to support nice people and so forth I am the same way but like another person stated being nice doesn't make me want to buy someones art just like being rude doesn't make me not want to buy someones work.

I think putting anyone on a pedestal is bad and giving an artist some expectation is usually going to end bad as well.

[freakinstyle]

Feb 9, 2014 23:03:37 GMT 1 stvro22 said:

Feb 9, 2014 22:56:18 GMT 1 iamzero said:

How in sweet bejesus do you get from thug and knuckle dragger for it to be insulting to black people?

Over here its aimed at meatheads.

As I said here in th US those terms are often connected to race. A black person will often be called a thug instead of the n-word and "knuckle dragger" with its reference to an ape or monkey has been used offensively towards blacks.

I'm not implying Sin meant it that way but I thought it was worth mentioning. I don't think it's a bad thing when someone takes a minute to point out something they may be aware of that someone else might not.

My mother still calls Aisans "orientals". I've given up on that one though.

I appreciate your concern in how people might offend others, but be careful not to drag associations from the US language into the UK. It is quite common that initially harmless words become loaded with feeling by its use, not its meaning and therefor adding meaning. If, like you said, those words in the US  are loaded with that association and seeing the responses on this forum, it is save to say nothing has been meant by it. 

I generally dislike people screwing with words by using it in a negative way, it basically deletes words from potential use because of associations your mention, and leaves us no alternatives to use in a positive way.

[sixftjellybaby]

I think it matters immensely how can you look at a picture on your wall today that you'll know was painted a complete idiot. It would just take the shine of it ,90% of the dealings I've had with artists have been ok, but just ok, I've paid got my order .thats what you expect.
However when we go to the other 10% the extremes are massive if they are good they are amazing (gilbert &george) if they are not they are just the biggest f#%kwits you have ever met(will not name the biggest one but he really lives up to his name)

[Feral Things]

Feb 10, 2014 8:03:00 GMT 1 graffuturism said:

So when your dealing with someone I try to understand why artists are the way they are and why they ignore 9 out of ten emails of people asking for something.

I think if an artist provides an email address on their website then they're raising a legitimate expectation that a reply will be provided, even if it is just a one line response saying something to the effect of "Thank you for your interest but I'm unfortunately I don't sell direct." I don't think it's acceptable to simply not reply to an email that someone has taken the time to write when it is the artist who has publicly provided the means of contact. 99% of artists I have dealt with though have been as good as gold.

[Jeezuz Jones Snr]

I remember patiently waiting in a queue for nick walkers BRP show with a mate off the forum, got the front then this guy with 2 friends barged to walk in and the eastern bloc doorman said wait there sir. The guy said 'do you know who I am? I am Matt small!!!' Bouncer gave him the 'haven't got a clue who the fuck you are ' look and ushered us in I never looked at his work again..

What about banksys attitude then he doesn't reply to anyone's emails and everyone still buy his works, but that's all about personal financial gain so it doesn't matter and everyone's happy.

[Deleted]

Matt Small is one of the funniest nicest blokes you're likely to meet, so you need to get a grip.

Also Matt was working with BRP at the time so damn straight he should be let straight in.

[Jeezuz Jones Snr]

Feb 10, 2014 10:49:39 GMT 1 @badrobot said:

Matt Small is one of the funniest nicest blokes you're likely to meet, so you need to get a grip.

Also Matt was working with BRP at the time so damn straight he should be let straight in.

Well he damn straight didn't crack any funny jokes in the queue and I don't care if he worked for the MI5,I am just saying what happened and commenting on his attitude.

[Coach]

Feb 10, 2014 10:49:39 GMT 1 @badrobot said:

Matt Small is one of the funniest nicest blokes you're likely to meet, so you need to get a grip.

Also Matt was working with BRP at the time so damn straight he should be let straight in.

I've met Matt a couple of times, and found him charming.
The work he does in the community shouldn't be ignored either. Imho.
Oh, and I happen to think he is one of, if not the, most talented artists mentioned on this forum.

[Deleted]

I'm loving this thread. Really interesting views on here. I'm torn too. An artists attitude shouldn't get in the way of the art work (providing it's good), but no matter what they should commit to good communication with the buyer and appreciate that this person likes their work enough to put it on their wall. Politeness isn't difficult.

[Deleted]

Feb 10, 2014 11:01:01 GMT 1 Jeezuz Jones Snr said:

Feb 10, 2014 10:49:39 GMT 1 @badrobot said:

Matt Small is one of the funniest nicest blokes you're likely to meet, so you need to get a grip.

Also Matt was working with BRP at the time so damn straight he should be let straight in.

Well he damn straight didn't crack any funny jokes in the queue and I don't care if he worked for the MI5,I am just saying what happened and commenting on his attitude.

Do you remember who he released prints with at all? Do you remember who he had shows with? He was mates with mike ffs, get over your self.

[nealmason1986]

Funnily enough this is a debate i am having with myself at the moment. I have heavily collected alot of art from one artist because i like said artists work!

Problem is he has been a bit of a cock recently and i have spent alot of money on buying his art.

I love the stuff but every time i look at the art i think of the problems with the artist.

I have taken about 3 pieces off my wall and put them away so his work does not dominate my wall as much.

[Coach]

I'm not sure that naming artists with whom people have had a problem, when those artists will not be aware they have been mentioned, and so can't defend themselves, on a public forum, is altogether fair. As I mentioned earlier, I have had a gripe with an artist. But I won't say who it is, on here.
In saying so, I am not condoning behaviour of either artist or collector.
Just my opinion.
Stay happy people.

[overend]

Would just like to add to what has been said about Matt Small. A lovely, funny guy with no ego at all and a huge talent.

Anyone recall the time he cut his hand badly just before giving a demonstration at a BRP show? Soon as he was out of casualty he was back at the show getting stuck in.

[curiousgeorge]

I think Artists have as many rights as forum members to be a bit of a nob.Some can be a bit precious though,how much that is down to having galleries blow smoke up their ass is anyones guess.


A few members might remember the way Nick Walker handled a confused 'fan/flipper' during the LTS queue.Very cool abd grounded way of handling that situation.The whole time he had a very bemused look on his face

[graffuturism]

Feb 10, 2014 10:03:53 GMT 1 Feral Things said:

Feb 10, 2014 8:03:00 GMT 1 graffuturism said:

So when your dealing with someone I try to understand why artists are the way they are and why they ignore 9 out of ten emails of people asking for something.

I think if an artist provides an email address on their website then they're raising a legitimate expectation that a reply will be provided, even if it is just a one line response saying something to the effect of "Thank you for your interest but I'm unfortunately I don't sell direct." I don't think it's acceptable to simply not reply to an email that someone has taken the time to write when it is the artist who has publicly provided the means of contact. 99% of artists I have dealt with though have been as good as gold.

Agreed, but I will say some artists put there contact information in case galleries, Mural projects and so forth. I try my best to reply right away even when I am not selling direct. When I have shows currently running I make it a habit of referring them to the gallery as I thinks its only fair. If I dont have a show running I try my best to respond. I will say when I refer the inquiries to a gallery I get rude replies as well. Its hard trying to please everyone I guess.

[ABC]

My ten pence worth. I do not believe the argument has anything to do with attitude. I believe it comes down to good old fashioned manners. Unfortunately manners are few and far between in today’s society. My Grandparents/Parents, from a very early age, taught me that if you respect others then they will, in most cases respect you. Always say good morning/afternoon and please and thank you, even if they are difficult (knobs)
Yes, I get funny looks when I hold doors open, and god forbid it let a car out!!, but manners cost nothing.

This works in every situation, including whilst talking to customers.

[Deleted]

Feb 10, 2014 20:43:12 GMT 1 ABC said:

My ten pence worth. I do not believe the argument has anything to do with attitude. I believe it comes down to good old fashioned manners. Unfortunately manners are few and far between in today’s society. My Grandparents/Parents, from a very early age, taught me that if you respect others then they will, in most cases respect you. Always say good morning/afternoon and please and thank you, even if they are difficult (knobs)
Yes, I get funny looks when I hold doors open, and god forbid it let a car out!!, but manners cost nothing.

This works in every situation, including whilst talking to customers.

Couldn't agree more!

[connecta1]

..absolutely agree mate, it all comes down to manners.

Thankfully I've never experienced this scenario, but have no doubt that if an artist I admired behaved like a tw@t to me or anyone I knew, it would definitely remove a significant chunk of the pleasure I get owning their work (regardless of it's monetary value).

It's funny, I've shared the room with one or two artists at openings, gallery functions etc. and not had the inclination to talk to them (it's not like I'm intimidated, in my line of work I've met plenty of TV/celebrity 'talent' and had no problem communicating with them).

I guess I just don't want to risk that thing about never meeting your heroes being true..

[dotdot]

When all is said , by some , and done ...manners / attitude call it what you will.
We all like to be treated with an amount of respect whether we be collectors, fans, flippers or.. Galleries.. Oh and of course artists

People change , circumstances change and... Yes attitudes change ..people become less forgiving and less forthcoming.. Due to whatever for the artist , this for me , is one slippery slope.

Hey it happens to rock ( and pop) stars and we should remind ourselves artists are no different

Some stay the same throughout this turmoil , for them it's obvious , for the others.. Their understanding of their fan base becomes cloudy and that base and inertia they depended on falls away .. And the end will snap at their heals.

This happens to those both talented and .. More so to those less talented. (IMO)

Still.... brought a few views out .. Which is cool.

(Oh and yeah matt is cool , nice chap with a good vibration going on , shame he's fallen somewhat from where he was... I don't care and have an og on my wall)

[Max Beales]

Feb 10, 2014 21:06:39 GMT 1 @leeellis said:

Feb 10, 2014 20:43:12 GMT 1 ABC said:

My ten pence worth. I do not believe the argument has anything to do with attitude. I believe it comes down to good old fashioned manners. Unfortunately manners are few and far between in today’s society. My Grandparents/Parents, from a very early age, taught me that if you respect others then they will, in most cases respect you. Always say good morning/afternoon and please and thank you, even if they are difficult (knobs)
Yes, I get funny looks when I hold doors open, and god forbid it let a car out!!, but manners cost nothing.

This works in every situation, including whilst talking to customers.

Couldn't agree more!

It's nice to be nice! It's easy and most of the time you get some pleases and thank yous in return!

[Deleted]

If an artist makes good art, I dont think their attitutde makes a lot of difference. I would rather have someone with a personality even if I didn't agree with their views than someone who refuses to comment or have an opinion because they want to please everybody.

Or some smug grinning idiot who makes a lot of money by being in the right clique regardless of producing rubbish.

Robert Hughes summed up Warhol in his documentary "The Business of Art. Damien Hirst is all hype "

[balibob]

The artists attitude definitely matters to me. I have had incredibly friendly and good dealings with a few artists, Prefab, Rourke, Matti, Nomade and John Doe spring to mind and thought this was the norm. Then I paid for a print directly to an artist that was to be a birthday present for my daughter, a print, not a commission or anything out of the ordinary, should be no problem I thought.

8 weeks and 30 odd politely worded emails later with absolutely no response at all I put a thread on here asking for advice, low and behold I received a curt email saying it had been dispatched, no apology or explanation, nothing. Even though the print came way later than my daughters birthday I framed it and we put it on the wall. Trouble is every time we looked at it, we were reminded of the bad backstory and now it is under a bed somewhere as we can't quite get the bad taste out of our mouths. If the artist produced the finest work of art that I have ever seen, covered it in diamonds, framed it in solid gold and offered it to me for free, I would tell him to shove it.

Well probably not. I would melt the gold, pick off the diamonds then wipe my arse with the artwork. You get the idea.

[stvro22]

Great video. Thanks.

[Deleted]

Feb 11, 2014 14:47:42 GMT 1 balibob said:

The artists attitude definitely matters to me. I have had incredibly friendly and good dealings with a few artists, Prefab, Rourke, Matti, Nomade and John Doe spring to mind and thought this was the norm. Then I paid for a print directly to an artist that was to be a birthday present for my daughter, a print, not a commission or anything out of the ordinary, should be no problem I thought.

8 weeks and 30 odd politely worded emails later with absolutely no response at all I put a thread on here asking for advice, low and behold I received a curt email saying it had been dispatched, no apology or explanation, nothing. Even though the print came way later than my daughters birthday I framed it and we put it on the wall. Trouble is every time we looked at it, we were reminded of the bad backstory and now it is under a bed somewhere as we can't quite get the bad taste out of our mouths. If the artist produced the finest work of art that I have ever seen, covered it in diamonds, framed it in solid gold and offered it to me for free, I would tell him to shove it.

Well probably not. I would melt the gold, pick off the diamonds then wipe my arse with the artwork. You get the idea.

 I agree that an artist or gallery business ethics should always be to offer and give good service if a buyer bought a print or an expensive original. The service should be the same standard.

 I wouldn't do business with someone like that but if the after sales service is good and the art good. I don't mind an artists attitude in their private life.

[johnnyh]

Feb 9, 2014 21:27:35 GMT 1 Phear Loathing said:

Feb 9, 2014 16:50:28 GMT 1 johnnyh said:

Think this is very important.
Think the artists concept both in work and view is important whatever that is
Artist must be genuine to their beliefs for the work to be true.
Also believe nothing wrong with them making money

But would turn against an artist I believe to be false. Ai Wei Wei is a good example for me

Would love to hear some allaboratoon on this point with Ai Wei Wei

eg look at his Tate video on the Sunflower seeds this is. Ai Wei Wei himself

www.tate.org.uk/whats-on/tate-modern/exhibition/unilever-series-ai-weiwei/video

workers paid less than a pound an hour rumour that much less than that.

remember it was closed down at the Tate due to the dangers of breathing in the dust. There were also traces of lead in he seeds. Notice how not one person in the production has a protective mask both workers and the miners etc in the whole video not one mask but they are available and worn in most factories
sureley Ai Wei Wei ethics and morals etc should extend to this. Or would it have put the price up
notice throughout the video the use of water shots of streams etc. there seems no protection of the local water table and the water from the porcelain washing away including its lead and it's dust.
Notice as it shows him parading around the workshop where the painting is being done. HE Struts the workers work head down speaking when spoken to by him
the young girl who he thanks for painting so many seeds she says no need I got paid she earned. 2000-3000 rmb that's 2-300 pounds
So one needs to look at the ethics and abuse of the art so loved which is portrayed at highlighting exploitation and yet involved a huge amount of exploitation in its production.
this his video not the Chinese governments these are his workers that he parades around he sees nothing wrong with this at all so one does have to ask questions of him
Listen to how he speaks during the video as the big benefactor giving to these poor people who have so little etch is very condescending belittling tone. The year of the seed production it's revenue was less than one. 40th of the towns porcelain revenue production so he was a bit of an exploiter rather than the big benefactor he makes out. Notice when he talks to the workers they just talk to him and give home the reverence of a big customer they earn money from him there is no love for him or his project every conversation and interaction on the video is about work and production. They are to small to be told the concept and give their views on the seeds just producers for the western piece of art he is making not nce does he ask their views or opinions
What is also apparent here from the people working in their homes and the girl interviewed where she says did enough for 2-3000 rmb is that they are being paid piecemeal. Eg not only did he not pay his tax but he is not paying theirs either or their pension contribution or their healthcare. They are not officially employed by him therefore have no worker rights. He says he wants the work done in the home as traditional but think what he really means is cheap and off books. So he brings dangerous silica dust and lead containing paints into their homes where you can see food kitchens and children playing.
Seems he shouts morals and rights but has little himself and cares little for these peoples rights.

[mmmike]

Feb 11, 2014 17:36:24 GMT 1 johnnyh said:

Feb 9, 2014 21:27:35 GMT 1 Phear Loathing said:

Would love to hear some allaboratoon on this point with Ai Wei Wei

eg look at his Tate video on the Sunflower seeds this is. Ai Wei Wei himself

www.tate.org.uk/whats-on/tate-modern/exhibition/unilever-series-ai-weiwei/video

workers paid less than a pound an hour rumour that much less than that.

remember it was closed down at the Tate due to the dangers of breathing in the dust. There were also traces of lead in he seeds. Notice how not one person in the production has a protective mask both workers and the miners etc in the whole video not one mask but they are available and worn in most factories
sureley Ai Wei Wei ethics and morals etc should extend to this. Or would it have put the price up
notice throughout the video the use of water shots of streams etc. there seems no protection of the local water table and the water from the porcelain washing away including its lead and it's dust.
Notice as it shows him parading around the workshop where the painting is being done. HE Struts the workers work head down speaking when spoken to by him
the young girl who he thanks for painting so many seeds she says no need I got paid she earned. 2000-3000 rmb that's 2-300 pounds
So one needs to look at the ethics and abuse of the art so loved which is portrayed at highlighting exploitation and yet involved a huge amount of exploitation in its production.
this his video not the Chinese governments these are his workers that he parades around he sees nothing wrong with this at all so one does have to ask questions of him
Listen to how he speaks during the video as the big benefactor giving to these poor people who have so little etch is very condescending belittling tone. The year of the seed production it's revenue was less than one. 40th of the towns porcelain revenue production so he was a bit of an exploiter rather than the big benefactor he makes out. Notice when he talks to the workers they just talk to him and give home the reverence of a big customer they earn money from him there is no love for him or his project every conversation and interaction on the video is about work and production. They are to small to be told the concept and give their views on the seeds just producers for the western piece of art he is making not nce does he ask their views or opinions
What is also apparent here from the people working in their homes and the girl interviewed where she says did enough for 2-3000 rmb is that they are being paid piecemeal. Eg not only did he not pay his tax but he is not paying theirs either or their pension contribution or their healthcare. They are not officially employed by him therefore have no worker rights. He says he wants the work done in the home as traditional but think what he really means is cheap and off books. So he brings dangerous silica dust and lead containing paints into their homes where you can see food kitchens and children playing.
Seems he shouts morals and rights but has little himself and cares little for these peoples rights.

I think you are good to be concerned about the workers but I think you missed a big part of what Weiwei is doing here. He is bringing attention to the working conditions and how difficult it is for workers to find work in this region. He is having them use ancient techniques and I'm guessing had no idea about the hazards until it was finished. All and all it doesn't look like the breathing hazards exist to the same extent in the production of the seeds as they they do when they are all piled together and people are playing in them. There are other worker safety issues there but he isn't causing them rather he is bringing attention to how old school the production still is in many parts of China. More like a journalist documenting than someone solving the problems. I think in the long run it will have a very positive influence on the region and the people. 

I think if he knew then what he knows now he would have done things differently but I admire his desire to employ people from this town and bring awareness to their work. 

[bmerel]

Personally, I have lots of relationships with artists...via text, email, in person or whatever. I've only ever had one relationship go sour in all my years collecting and now creating/curating shows. My opinion is this:
I dont give a shit who you are or what you've done because at the end of the day, you're a human being just like the rest (most) of us. Just because you're an artist does not give you the right to act like an asshole. I cant draw for the life of me...but I can put a plate together better than most. Just like i cant do their job well, they cant replicate mine. We are equals, first and foremost. Some relationships are more fine tuned and personal than others, as is parallel to all relationships in life. Some people get along, some dont. The moment that one feels or acts "above" the other is when issues can arise.
I know fans/collectors put artists on a grand stage because we love what they do, they're accessible and we continuously want more. They are public, which is where it becomes a bit tricky. Sure, it can be annoying when you're standing in a bathroom taking a piss and someone asks you to take a picture with them or sign their t-shirt...i've dealt with that before and i embrace it to the best of my ability, or until someone becomes vulgar or disrespectful.
The most important thing to me is respect. If you have a long relationship (more personal) with an artist and suddenly they treat you as a "fanboy"..especially if you have been involved both publicly and personally for quite some time, it can be very hurtful and then true colors come to light. My one nasty relationship with an artist ended like that. The respect level and "brushing off" attitude that was given to me sent my blood boiling. I own some of his beautiful work but none of it will ever see my walls ever again.
Bottom line...if an artist has shown little to no caring publicly or privately, thats not someone i want to be involved with. I dont want their art on my walls, no matter how beautiful it is.